Talk:Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks

spreadsheet

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p_esnE-3Z3p-HehX1YOZIaw hope this is useful! --Thelostlibertine (talk) 03:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Very helpful, but where did the names come from? Remember (talk) 03:44, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Citizens

Is this page just for the well known people or for anyone? I suggest a new section is made for the common citizens. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 03:50, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

It is for everyone. It should be a complete listing of all of the direct victims of the attacks. Remember (talk) 03:54, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Should I also include the name of the the Filipino national injured if name is revealed? Also, we oughta do something on the references once the situation's over in Mumbai. Ominae (talk) 18:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the families of those killed might consider this information management somewhat disrespectful. I met personally the mexican victim and the news don't seem to be treating the topic in a respectful enough manner. They haven't even got the age of the victim right.

Sources fix

Can somebody please fix those sources? They need to include title, publisher, date, etc. Cyanidethistles (talk) {Tim C} 07:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to ask but I cannot find a source to verify the death of Elizabeth Russel of Canada, could some one double check on that?

This article seems like a bad idea...

I'm not going to do anything about it now, as it would seem extremely callous to nominate this article for deletion while the story is still unfolding; but in cases of previous massacres and disasters, 'lists of victims' articles have been discouraged. The policy for this is WP:NOT#MEMORIAL, which dates back to the problems with such articles created after the 9/11 attacks. Once it seems like no more victims are likely to be reported, we should consider whether this is appropriate as an article in its own right, or whether it should be merged back into the main article. No offence is intended to the people who have been working on it. Terraxos (talk) 16:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

maybe ... but some more are here as well:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/At_least_8_foreigners_dead_in_Mumbai_attacks/articleshow/3770297.cms?TOI_latestnews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.87.229.153 (talk) 17:14, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

As I recall, WP:NOT#MEMORIAL applies to memorial articles about individuals, not events. iow, Wikipedia is not the place for obituary notices. Eventually I expect there will be an official list, likely by the Indian government, which we can refer to in the main article. Until then, this article is of some value IF the names are cited to reputable sources. Flatterworld (talk) 20:37, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Why are we listing safe people... That just seems like it will cause the list to become cluttered. We might aswell just add all the names of living people in Mumbai then. --156.34.80.231 (talk) 21:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Rename and revamp

Currently, the name and nature of the article is to be a list of victims of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks. This is by and large a bad idea, as the sheer number of dead, let alone injured, would result in an extremely long list of mostly non-notable people and details, absolutely unsuitable for an encyclopedia. Let us be reminded that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information or a memorial. While this may presently be a very difficult time for many Indians, let the proper physical and virtual memorials take care of the lists of names.

In accordance to the precedents set by articles like Casualties of the September 11 attacks and Casualties of the 11 March 2004 Madrid bombings, I propose we rename this article to Casualties of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks. The list of names should be removed, although the table of casualty nationalities should remain. Notable information on the victims can be added to this article, including distribution amongst the locations, demographics, and the such. Ariedartin JECJY ^Talk 19:32, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Concur on Revamp

I agree that once there is an official and comprehensive source listing the casualties, that source can be referenced in the main article and this page can be deleted. For now, when most names are unknown, keeping a list of names helps maintain the nationality statistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briansanders5 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Since you made this point - I'm going to repeat what I said on the talk page of the main article (forgot to sign off, "Singaporean/Chinese death" was me). I haven't found a source that can name the dead Chinese citizen (if there indeed was a Chinese death). CNN says one Chinese casualty, but that's the only place I've seen that claim, and there's no reference to a Singaporean casualty. The dead Singaporean is a Chinese Singaporean, and if CNN is basing its tally on ground reports instead of official tallies from the authorities, then they may have misreported the Singaporean as a Chinese citizen. We don't know yet, but can we please KIV this and edit when official reports come out. P (talk) 09:03, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Holtzbergs

The Holtzbergs (at least the husband) have dual-nationality. ie he had both an American and an Israeli passport. Born in Israeli, had had lived in the US since pre-teen years and moved from the US to India. I recommend he be listed with both flags and be counted as both an Israeli and American casualty. i believe his wife fits the same criteria, although perhaps she only had a green card and no US passport -- but she did live for a long time in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briansanders5 (talk • contribs) 21:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

My solution was to create an Israeli-American section. Otherwise, I think we should count the dual citizens as Americans, since they all were coming from the US to India and had lived a long time in the US prior to going to India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briansanders5 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Do not Delete the article

for future references please do not delete the article's section. --Special:Contributions/Srkhan2 (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Changing the title

I'm not sure how to change the title of the article, but "casualties of the nov 2008 mumbai attacks" seems like a good change as per the precedents listed above. Briansanders5 (talk) 00:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed list

For those who were looking for the now removed list of victims, which was removed due to an afd, I am putting a copy of it below.

Name	Nationality	Age	Condition	Details	Source
Vishwas Nangre-Patil	India		Injured	Deputy commissioner of police
Sandeep Unnikrishnan	India	31	Dead	NSG Major, at Taj Operation
Niti Kang	India	40	Dead	Taj GM Karambir Singh Kang's wife;found dead inside locked bathroom
Uday Singh Kang	India	14	Dead	Taj GM Karambir Singh Kang's son; found dead inside locked bathroom
Samar Singh Kang	India	5	Dead	Taj GM Karambir Singh Kang's son; found dead inside locked bathroom
Sabina Sehgal Saikia	India	46	Dead	found dead at the Taj Hotel
Jasmine Bhurji	India	21	Dead	Hotel Management trainee; hit by 3 bullets on the right arm while standing in Oberoi-Trident lobby
Maibam Bimolchandra Singh	India	30	Dead	Killed in the attack on the Oberoi Trident
Vijay Rao Bhanja	India	48	Dead	Taj staff fatality
Vijay Salaskar	India		Dead	Encounter specialist
Kaizad Kadim	India	27	Dead	Taj staff fatality
Ashok Kamte	India		Dead	Additional Commissioner of Police
Boris do Rego	India	23	Dead	Taj staff fatality
Sadanand Date	India		Injured	1990 batch IPS officer from the city and the additional commissioner of Mumbai police
Gajender Singh Bisht	India		Dead	NSG member, at Nariman House
Malayesh Bannerjee	India	27	Dead	shot in the leg
Lakshmi Narayan Goyal	India	57	Dead	near Ville Parle
Ashok Kapur	India		Dead	Unknown causes but found dead at Trident Oberoi. Chairman Yes Bank
Hemant Karkare	India	54	Dead	Head of the Mumbai ATS
Roopinder Randhawa	India		Dead	Teacher at GD Somani Memorial School
Shashank Shinde	India		Dead	Senior inspector GRP
M L Chaudhary	India		Dead	Head constable, Railway Protection Force
S K Sharma	India		Dead	Assistant Chief Ticket Officer
Monika Chhabria	India		Dead	shot dead at Trident Oberoi
Mr Chhabria	India		Dead	Husband of Monika Chhabria, shot dead at Trident Oberoi
Pankaj S Shah	India		Dead	Real estate developer, Satellite group, shot dead at Trident Oberoi
Alan Scherr	United States	58	Dead	shot in Oberoi Hotel
Naomi Scherr	United States	13	Dead	was with father, shot in Oberoi
Aryeh Leibish Teitlebaum	United States	36	Dead	hostage in the Chabad House
Andi Varagona aka Rudrani Devi	United States		Injured	shot in arm and leg
Linda Ragsdale	United States		Injured	underwent surgery for bullet wounds
Doug Markell	Australia	71	Dead	Tauck guest
Brett Gilbert Taylor	Australia	49	Dead	arrived at hospital dead
Schmader Daffne	Australia	50	Dead	killed at the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus
David Coker	Australia	23	Injured	grazed by bullet
Kate Anstee	Australia	24	Injured	shot in leg at Leopold Cafe, femur fractured
Michael Stert	Australia	73	Dead	see hospital list from helpMumbai
Ralph Burkei	Germany	51	Dead	fell from the Taj hotel while trying to escape, died en route to hospital
Steve Darfane	Germany		Dead	name on hospital roles, may be Australian (see above)
Juergan Hetras Rudolph		68	Dead	arrived at hospital dead
Benjamin Matthiys	Germany	26	Injured	undergoing treatment
Bornade Lite	Germany		Injured	undergoing treatment
Axel Nordmeier		-	Injured	at hospital
Michael Moss	Canada	73	Dead	Killed in the attack on the Taj
Elizabeth Russel	Canada	65	Dead	Killed in the attack on the Taj
Helen Connolly	Canada		Injured	Grazed by bullet
Michael Rudder	Canada	55	Injured	Genie Award-nominated actor; shot three times, stabilized at hospital
Antonio Di Lorenzo	Italy	63	Dead	from a grenade in the first phase of terrorist attack
Uguarinni or Juarini	Italy	62	Dead	listed on hospital roles
Loumia Hiridjee	France	47	Dead	dining at Oberoi Trident
Mourad Amarsy	France		Dead	wife also killed
Gavriel Noach Holtzberg	United States Israel	29	Dead	hostage in the Chabad House
Bentzion Kruman	United StatesIsrael	28	Dead	hostage in the Chabad House
Rivka Holtzberg + her unborn child	Israel	26	Dead	hostage in the Chabad House
Yohevet Orpaz	Israel	60	Dead	hostage in the Chabad House
Andreas Dionysiou Liveras	United Kingdom	73	Dead	shot to death after making call from inside hotel
Simon Hillias		55	Injured	gunshot wounds to arm
Vinay Jundwall		68	Injured	broke leg jumping from hotel
William Pike		28	Injured	fell from his knotted sheets trying to escape; broke vertebrae, gunshot wounds?
Michael Murphy	United Kingdom	59	Injured	shot in the ribs, in intensive care
Diane Murphy	United Kingdom	58	Injured	shot in the foot
Harsh Patel	United Kingdom	29	Injured	chest injuries; at hospital
Orchiatala Lind			Injured	name on hospital roles
Hisashi Tsuda	Japan	38	Dead	shot in the back of the leg, stomach and chest at the Trident hotel, died at hospital
Tatsuya Kessoku	Japan	44	Injured	see elevator story
Chaitlall Gunness	Mauritius	57	Dead	shot twice in the head at the Taj
Lo Hwei Yen	Singapore	28	Dead	found on 19th floor of the Oberoi; gunshot wounds in the head and abdomen
Hema Kasipillay		51	Dead	smoke inhalation; 6th floor of Taj
Gehara Kanamani alias Jina			Dead
Al Raisi Muneera Mohd	Oman	35	Injured
Zadjali Miran Sahil	Oman	19	Injured
Jihad Mihyar	Jordan		Injured	hospitalized, but discharged
Maria Trossa	Spanish		Injured	at hospital
Rafael Beaus	Spain		Injured	shot in leg (fractured femur). Pneumothorax
Shih Fung Chen		-	Injured	at hospital
Oskari Pölhö		-	Injured	at hospital
Arne Strømme		-	Injured	at hospital
Eugene S. Tan		-	Injured	at hospital
Willem-Jan Berbers		57	Dead	found on 4th floor of Taj Hotel
Katherine Instee		-	Injured	at hospital
Norma Schwartzblatt-Rabinowitz		50	Dead	hostage in the Chabad House

References

Removed list 2

The result of the AFD nomination was no consensus. So you decided on your own initiative to remove the list over which the fighting was about. Again, the result was no consensus, however, 21 users were for KEEP while 17 were for DELETE, not counting those whose votes were MERGE, in any case, a majority was not for the deletion of the list, over which, again, the fight was about. They way you conducted yourself would seem as the DELETE votes won, even though they were a minority. The name of this article is List of victims of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks, how can it be a list if you delete the list?89.216.236.45 (talk) 00:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I was the one who closed the AFD, read it closer, most of the keeps were because of invalid reasoning, there was consensus to remove the list of names, just not the article. Secret ^account 16:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you came up with consensus to remove the names. My point was that the data has been of various dubious accuracy. Rarely, has the number of deaths on the main page agreed with the number of deaths in the article agreed with the number of deaths in the casuality article agreed with the number of deaths in the casuality tables. For example, all of wikipedia's tables indicate that 4 Americans were killed, but I have never in Wikipedia or any other source heard who the 4th American was. This list of names of people who have died is the only thing that tells us this information is suspect. Aepryus (talk) 20:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, in addition to the phantom 4th American there is a Jordanian listed as being killed, without any sourcing. A cursory search of google news did not seem to indicate any references to a Jordanian being killed. The first source listed for the 4 Americans doesn't seem to state anything about 4 American's dying. The second source which comes from a Turkish newspaper references a very early statement by a state department official saying he believes 6 Americans were killed (including the 2 Israeli-Americans); I suspect the "6th" he may have been referring to would be the rabbi's wife who was a permanent American resident. In any case, I have not seen anywhere any stories concerning who the 4th American would be. Unless, someone can find some sources, I would recommend removing 1 American death and the Jordanian death and setting the foreign death count to 28 (which would agree with the list above). Aepryus (talk) 12:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved.--Aervanath lives in the Orphanage 05:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

---

List of victims of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks → Casualties of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks — To reflect the consensus reorganization of the main article, I suggest we move this article and the talk page to Casualties of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks. Moving keeps the history (including the creator), and the old name will remain as a redirect. This move is also separate from the issue around WP:NOTMEMORIAL with the victim's list, which is an ongoing discussion. It simply reflects that the article should be focused as a sub-page from the main article around all casualty information. Thanks! — Cerejota (talk) 12:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Question The term 'casualties' includes people injured in the attacks. Is it the intention to include these people in the list as well?--Regents Park (bail out your boat) 15:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

(From the online OED): c. Used of an individual killed, wounded, or injured. --Regents Park (bail out your boat) 16:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

My proposal is that this article reflect its current content, which goes beyond a list of victims. "Casualties" is a more correct term, because while civilians are definitely victims, security forces deaths, while tragic, are combat deaths and not victimization. I do understand what the term Casualties is. By removing the term "list" from the title, we open the article to non-list content (which seems to be the consensus) so a list of wounded or injured is a separate issue from renaming, and certainly not a requirement (although a possibility if so is the consensus) if the name changes. I hope I addressed your question. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 01:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I take it you mean that the article is open to content about non-fatality casualties as well? If yes, then the name change is fine. --Regents Park (bail out your boat) 02:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the article already has this, I just think we should match the name to the content. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 13:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I am moving, while there has been no discussion here, some votes in the AfD proposed this. I think there is consensus this more encyclopedic. Thanks!--Cerejota (talk) 02:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• Much better (and certainly more encyclopedic) article now. Well done! --➨Candlewicke  ^{:) Sign/Talk} 16:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

"The main targets of the attack appeared to be Americans, Britons, Australians and Jews"

According to self-centered Western media at least... suburbs? movie theater? And weren't most of the people killed at the train station? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.166.238 (talk) 17:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Restore list of names

Reading this years after the event, and the debates, I cannot agree that there was a "consensus" at the AFD to remove that list of names. I would support seeing it restored, and the sourcing improved.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:28, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Why? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 09:19, 15 December 2015 (UTC)