Talk:Castle (shogi)

Lozenge castle

I see a Lozenge castle (hishigakoi) in Hosking (p. 52). But, i haven't found an example of this online. Mostly instead I see 菱矢倉 hishi yagura when googling for 菱囲い. (I'm searching just to see another example. 菱矢倉 is on jawiki & i've already put it on this article.) Is there another more common name for it? – ishwar  (speak) 07:06, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure who came first, but the term is listed here. I really don't know where Hosking or Geun got it from; it could've come from an old book they read or it could be their own creation. Hishi" means "diamond" and "lozenge" is diamond-shaped heraldic element so maybe they just were being a bit creative in describing the castle and felt the yagura part wasn't needed. FWIW, there are so many quirky names for castles that most club players probably will never use. In this case, I think most players would simply refer to it as a yagura where the right silver happens to be on 6e. I also can't recall ever hearing either term being used by a pro as part of any game analysis, but personally hishiyagura does seem more natural to me. I did find this while Googling which you might be able to use as a source for some of the different castle variants. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

His lozenge is formally distinct from both yagura and hishiyagura and is described as a development from funa.

boat (hosking)

☖ pieces in hand: –

9	8	7	6	5	4	3	2	1
									1
									2
									3
									4
									5
歩		歩		歩					6
	歩		歩						7
	角	玉		金					8
香	桂	銀	金						9

☗ pieces in hand: –

lozenge/hishigakoi (hosking)

☖ pieces in hand: –

9	8	7	6	5	4	3	2	1
									1
									2
									3
									4
									5
歩		歩		歩					6
	歩		歩	銀					7
	角	玉	銀	金					8
香	桂		金						9

☗ pieces in hand: –

菱矢倉 (jawiki)

☖ pieces in hand: –

9	8	7	6	5	4	3	2	1
									1
									2
									3
									4
			歩						5
		歩	銀	歩					6
歩	歩	銀	金						7
	玉	金							8
香	桂								9

☗ pieces in hand: –

apparent 'lozenge' structure

☖ pieces in hand: –

9	8	7	6	5	4	3	2	1
									1
									2
									3
									4
			歩						5
		歩	銀						6
		銀	金						7
		金							8
									9

☗ pieces in hand: –

So, it's something else. – ishwar  (speak) 10:03, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

There obviously is a formal similarity though. The structure on the 6 & 5 files of hosking's lozenge is simply moved leftward to the 7 & 6 files and then all moved up a rank for the lozenge-yagura. That's presumably the lozenge shape. Still the function of the two are intended to be different: static vs ranging (lozenge) and double static (lozenge yagura). – ishwar  (speak) 10:10, 19 May 2016 (UTC)