Talk:Cassius Marcellus Clay (politician)

Merge

Suggestion:

First merge the contents of article "Cassius M. Clay" with the contents of article "Cassius Clay (abolishionist)" into article "Cassius Marcellus Clay (abolishionist)"

Then:

• Article "Cassisus Marcellus Clay" should be a disambiguation page that points to "Cassius Marcellus Clay (abolishionist)" and "Muhammed Ali (boxer)"
• Article "Cassius M. Clay" should redirect to "Cassius Marcellus Clay"
• Article "Cassius Clay" should redirect to "Cassius Marcellus Clay"
• Delete article "Cassius Clay (abolishionist)" or, if other pages link to it, redirect it to "Cassius Marcellus Clay (abolishionist)"

4.228.216.225 16:53, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Damn. See that spelling mistake up there? What are the chances I would cut and paste that text to create the new article here... well I did. Now it's named wrong, and a bit of a fuddle. I'm away for a few hours, but I'll patch things back up. I should be able to merge this Cassisus... with Cassius..., and make this a redirect. That will keep the (albiet confusing) history intact. :) --Bookandcoffee 21:25, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Done. --Bookandcoffee 02:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Page history

Note: Due to a spelling error in a previous merge, early history for this page can be found at Cassisus Marcellus Clay (abolitionist)--Bookandcoffee 02:33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I've gone and history-merged that page with this one, so the page histories are together now. Graham87 09:24, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Slaveowning

I'm working on the Muhammad Ali page, and in Ali's semiautobiography he writes that CMC was a "White man from Kentucky who owned slaves." Is it known whether Clay himself ever owned slaves? Door 08:52, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Cassius Clay was a gradual abolitionist who renounced slavery freeing his slaves early in his adult years. User:Dinobrya — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.26.145.231 (talk) 06:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

According to his memoirs, in 1848 he became the legal "owner" of 17 slaves held by his father, Green Clay. He immediately freed all of them and spent several thousand 1848 dollars to "purchase" and free many of their friends and relatives. It is not clear that he was a gradual abolitionist. All of his writing and speeches indicate that he supported immediate abolition. This notion that he was a gradualist was written by some early biographers and repeated without citation over the years. He ran what was for some time the only abolitionist newspaper in the South, fortifying the newspaper with cannon and lining the walls with gunpowder. He was charged with "public mayhem" by the government for making abolitionist speeches at pro-slavery rallies, for which he almost lost his life several times. In that particular case he was defended by his cousin, Henry Clay. He stopped suporting Henry Clay and the wig party after the 1840's, since he felt they were too conservative on slavery. While in Russia he witnessed the czar's edict of 1861 freeing more than 20 million serfs. When he was called back from Russia, by Lincoln, to be appointed a major general in the Union Army, he publicly refused the appointment unless Lincoln would sign a similar delcaration. Lincoln sent him to Kentucky to assess the political support for this. Clay reported that it was fine, and the emancipation proclamation was signed several weeks later. (p.s. I don't know how to do Wikipedia edits, otherwise I'd update with some of this info myself. What I'm writing is from his Memoirs. If people would like detailed citations I can find them.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.16.204.74 (talk) 05:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

What he did not support was Garrison’s rejection of the Constitution as “a covenant with death, and an agreement with hell”. His ‘gradualism’ was a desire to use the Constitution and the laws to abolish slavery. Which he did. This is all in the record as well. 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:209C:49AE:E9BE:666B (talk) 23:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Mob?

What kind of mob packs your printing press and ships it to Ohio for you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cglied (talk • contribs) 02:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Adopted children?

Was it only the last-named child who was adopted, or all eight of them? 109.157.17.230 (talk) 12:36, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Terms? why not abolitionist?

Why is Clay called an "emancipationist" rather than the more common term of "abolitionist"? The wikilink for the former goes to "Abolitionism", so I'm changing the reference in this article as well.Parkwells (talk) 19:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Improve sources

This is a very strange article, with academic books listed, but most sourcing to a 1911 book. Clay is the kind of figure who no doubt received renewed attention in the late 20th century from historians; please update references and see what more is being said about him. Also, do not include self-published books unless with sources attesting to high quality. Don't waste readers' time.Parkwells (talk) 20:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Colorizing?

Who is colorizing Matthew Brady's classic photographs? I'm sure this is not the work of the Library of Congress; it is highly inappropriate.Parkwells (talk) 04:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Redirecting to Muhammad Ali

I think it's a sad state of affairs when a search for Cassius Clay automatically redirects to the article for a man who has not answered to that name for over fifty years. Does anyone not know that the boxer, formerly named Cassius Clay, identifies as Muhammad Ali? A search for "Cassius Clay" should be directed to this article, with the notation at the beginning "For the American boxer, see 'Muhammad Ali.'" This would honor both Cassius Marcellus Clay, the subject of this article and the American boxer Muhammad Ali, since "Muhammad Ali" is the name he has chosen and is how he identifies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beetfarm Louie (talk • contribs) 04:59, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Should also link to criticism of Ali for not really understanding Clay. There are several sources for this, they mostly suggest that calling Clay a “slaveholder” and “supporter of white supremacy” is not accurate, and that Ali was, er, not an intellectual type. Some addressing of this is needed, as most today have only heard of Clay because of the Ali connection. 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:209C:49AE:E9BE:666B (talk) 23:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

External links modified

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Birth and death dates

Find a Grave https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=8009&PIpi=84969 has a photo of gravestone with dates October 10, 1810 - July 23, 1903. What are the primary references that contradict this? Thisdaytrivia (talk) 06:33, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 8 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Discussion has been relisted once already, and there is not a clear consensus to move. The page has been relisted once and stayed in the backlog for two days following the relist with no additional comments. I find it unlikely that further relisting would clarify consensus. The page stays at its stable title by default (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 01:25, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

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Cassius Marcellus Clay (politician) → Cassius Clay (politician) – Shorter title that already redirects here pbp 23:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:33, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Sources indicate that subject has been most-frequently referenced by his full name or as Cassius M. Clay, rather than as simply "Cassius Clay". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:39, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mary Jane Warfield?

Perhaps there should be a link to his former wife, Mary Jane Warfield. She kept up the house White Hall for a substantial amount of time while Cassius was away. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashleigh King (talk • contribs) 18:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Introduction Quotes

There are no sources cited in the introduction - or anywhere else in the article, for that matter - backing up the quotes attributed to Clay regarding what to do with freed slaves and his attitudes toward them. Also, of the three sources cited for Muhammad Ali's statement about Clay's white supremacy, two are dead links and the one remaining makes no mention of Clay's apparent disdain for Black people. I've done some digging and have found several secondary or tertiary sources for the quote, but have been unable to access any of the earliest accounts of it. Does anybody have access to either "The Day of Small Things" by Richard Sears or "Lion of White Hall" by David Smiley? All of the sources in which I've found this quote reference either these books or a collection of Clay's letters in the Lincoln Museum of Fort Wayne. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bllfrg777 (talk • contribs) 02:08, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Went ahead and removed the uncited material, as the source for it was a blog which did not cite its sources. Will add quotes back to the article if I can get access to the more reliable sources. Also, pardon the misspellings in my edit description, mobile autocorrect ftw. Bllfrg777 (talk) 18:08, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Attitude to Britain

A collection of stories was published in 1863 called “Running the Blockade”. This was published in London, about U.K. ships that ran the Union blockade of Southern ports during the Civil War. The author is disdainful of the ‘Yankees’ -at least, his sailor characters are- and Clay is mentioned in one of them. It opens like this:

THE CASSIUS MARCELLUS CLAY . 
I do not mean , by Cassius Marcellus Clay , the stump orator , whose mission is or was to abuse Great Britain and all which it inherits , but a Yankee brig so named after that distinguished gentleman , by an admirer of his at least , I presume so , though for aught I know , I the dis - United States can boast of a thousand Cassius Marcellus Clays , one of whom may have been a dear relative of Ezra Sidebotham , ship - builder of Portland , State of Maine , and owner of the brig so named in compliment to his dear relative and friend .

Now, the fact that Clay criticised Britain seems to be an issue for this speaker, though Clay’s other views may have galled him as well, but what *did* Clay say about Britain? This passage implies Clay said a lot, but I find nothing about it here. Some more information on this would improve the article. 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:209C:49AE:E9BE:666B (talk) 00:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: exactly who "the six Turner brothers" were. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2023 (UTC)