Talk:Carmel Weavers Studio

Edit Request - Notability tag

• Request for removal of Notability tag.
  • Per WP:NBUILDING: the Carmel Weavers Studio is notable as a result it historic and architectural importance, with significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources.
  • The Carmel Weavers Studio is significant according to the criteria of the California Register, in the area of architecture.
  • The building stands out as one of the early commercial shops designed and funded by theatrical entrepreneur Edward G. Kuster, and incorporated to compliment the Theatre of the Golden Bough.
  • The Carmel Weavers Studio plays an important role in the character and preservation of the City's downtown historic district.
  • There are six secondary sources as well as primary sources to support WP:N quidelines.

Greg Henderson (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Was the writing above produced with an AI? You've repeated the full name "The Carmel Weavers" three times. The sentences flows awkward too. Graywalls (talk) 19:47, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

No, I repeated "Carmel Weavers Studio" for bullet point emphasis. Greg Henderson (talk) 20:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Greghenderson2006 can I urge on this and all other similar discussions to focus on the notability criteria. So the second, third, and fourth bullet points above are irrelevant and I would suggest only serve to cloud the discussion. The key question under WP:NBUILDING is whether there is WP:SIGCOV, which means in-depth coverage (that is addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content) in multiple, reliable, secondary sources. Clearly presenting an anlysis of which sources you think meet this and why would be the usual approach taken to arguing for notability on this basis. Melcous (talk) 22:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

@Melcous: The points 2-4 provide clarity why the city has recognized the building as significant.

In terms of WP:NBUILDING, the Carmel Weavers Studio (known today as Cottage of Sweets) has WP:SIGCOV in the following secondary sources.

• Alissandra Dramov's book: Historic Buildings of Downtown Carmel-by-the-Sea, page 77
• Kent Seavey's book Carmel A History in Architecture pages 73-74
• Alissandra Dramov's 2nd book Carmel-By-The-Sea, pages 42-43
• Elaine Hesser's article A cottage that’s for history buffs as well as chocolate lovers
• Hellen Hilliard's article The Wever's of Carmel, page 64
• In addition there is significant coverage in primary sources, including, the California State Parks DPR record for Carmel Weavers Studio, and others

Greg Henderson (talk) 23:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Dramov book is basically equivalent to Pokemon character book with photo captions for swath of Carmel-by-the-Sea buildings. If this was allowed to be notability making sourcce, we'd be having a page for every pokemon character. We did, but a bunch of them were removed. See WP:POKEMON. While primary sources are not universally prohibited, they usually have no bearing on notability. Graywalls (talk) 02:48, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:SIGCOV does not require a volume of words. It can also mean the quality of the words. The secondary sources I have outlined above demonstrates notability and address the topic directly and in detail. They are not trivial. Greg Henderson (talk) 05:59, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

There are other editors who are much better at source analysis than me but on a quick read, I'd say:

* sources 1-3 in this list (Dramov, Seavey, and Dramov) all provide significant coverage for the architecture of Carmel as a whole, but I'm not convinced they provide significant coverage to every single building that is listed/mentioned within that - as noted in the Pokemon analogy

* source 4 (Hesser) is specifically about this building, but is a local newsletter, so a maybe in my mind for meeting WP:RS

* source 5 (Hilliard) is a newspaper clipping from 1922 about the Weaving Studio at the time, so is not about the building as a historic site so much as the activity that took place there back in the day, thus not really about the topic of this article / more a primary source

* primary sources can be used within articles for various reasons, but do not count towards notability under the SIGCOV test. In my mind that leaves us with one possible/maybe source that provides the kind of coverage required, but WP:SIGCOV specifically requires multiple sources. In an AfD discussion, I would therefore vote delete as not notable. Melcous (talk) 06:20, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

The fact remains that the citations are (a) secondary sources, (b) provide significant coverage that is more than a trivial mention. For Dramov books, the text of the book is in the traditional Arcadia Publishing format, which is more photo laden than text heavy. Most of the basic details of each building or location are given in each caption between the two photos, including the name of the architect, designer or builder, the street, date constructed and the architectural style. Often what is included are some other information about what is shown in the photographs, as well, such as the building’s uses through the years and notable people associated with it. The essay by Elaine Hesser's directly talks about the studio, the architecture, and how it reflects the European influences on the creators Ruth and Edward Kuster.

The California State Parks DPR record and the Carmel Weavers Studio newspaper clippings are valuable sources that describe the building as one the earliest commercial shops designed and funded by Edward G. Kuster, and was built to compliment the Golden Bough Theatre. The City of Carmel has officially stated that the building is significant enough to be included as a historical resource and has listed it as part of their Downtown Historic Commerical District. Greg Henderson (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Which is very much comparable to Pokemon: Super Extra Deluxe Essential Handbook a reliably published book through Scholastic Corporation with has information on something like 900 Pokemon characters over 550 pages or more, yet Wikipedia community found there's no justification to have a page for each character. Any Pokemon character is likely to be more notable on a global than most of individual buildings in a Carmel-by-the-Sea township in the US State of California, a touristy town that maybe more notable than some other little touristy towns. The level of coverage on every bits and pieces of Carmel-by-the-Sea is disproportionate. Graywalls (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2024 (UTC)