Talk:Carmel Moore

Untitled

Theres not proof that she's actually Iranian. Her name sounds mi-eastern, but she could easily be arabic or Indian since lotta those pole have Persian/Iranian names in origin, even Afghan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.46.224 (talk) 18:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

She's Iranian, it's on her personal website: [[1]] Jesuschristonacamel (talk) 09:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Reverted edits

I have reinstated the edit that was reverted by User:Dismas because no adequate explanation was given. Reeling off a string of WPs is not sufficient. See Wikipedia:Reverting. In the wikipedia spirit of collaborative co-operation between editors, I invite User:Dismas to discuss any specific concerns they may have with the edit I made to the article. Graemp (talk) 07:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Obvious failure to comply with WP:BLP requires no discussion, and policy calls for immediate removal. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:18, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Please explain which parts of the edit you believe don't comply with WP:BLP and why. Graemp (talk) 13:22, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Short on time right now but the birth name is a big reason for the BLP concerns. Dismas|^(talk) 15:04, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Dismas for explaining your concern. Her original birthname was not properly sourced. The name 'Nasrin Alavi' can be properly sourced but not as a birthname. I would be happy to move 'Nasrin Alavi' from 'Info Box Born' to 'Info Box Other names', which should satisfy any BLP concerns. Graemp (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I just trimmed this thing down. There is no proof that the linked website is hers (there have been countless instances of companies publishing "official" websites without the actors' consent), so it's not a reliable source. IMDb is not a reliable source for something like her birth name. Saying when she did something or when she was active or retired based on scene listings is original research. I despair at having to rely on the other sources but I guess that's what there is for these types of articles. I have no problem with any of that material being added back, as long as we observe WP:BLPSOURCES and everything else. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 18:34, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Well that is some trim - your edits represent a substantial cut in the article. To deal with you points in turn;

Linked website: I agree with you that there is no proof that the website is hers, if anyone particularly wants to delete this, they can do so as far as I am concerned. It should be noted that there was nothing in the article pre-User:FreeRangeFrog edits that exclusively quoted this source. Therefore its reliability as a source is irrelevant. However, it does confirm much of the information elsewhere in the article.

IMDb: This source was only used once in the article as an additional source for a name by which she was known. It is not stated in the article that this was her birthname. The other source used is Time Out: http://www.timeoutdubai.com/gallery/12863-360%C2%B0?image=10#.VNJ60i7lyVchttp://www.timeoutdubai.com/gallery/12863-360%C2%B0?image=10#.VNJ60i7lyVc Removing one of her aliases when it had two sources was odd and the stated birthname objection to IMDb irrelevant.

User:FreeRangeFrog edit 17:59, 4 February 2015‎ deleted "In 2005 at age 20, under the name of Nasrin, she started glamour modelling in the United Kingdom as a brunette, and performing in solo girl scenes." with the explanation that the sentence was "not supported by given source" I was the editor who wrote this and sourced it. On seeing this edit, I took the trouble to check the source to see if I had made a mistake. When I found I hadn't I reverted the edit at 18:05, 4 February 2015 stating that the sentence was "supported by given source". At 18:06, 4 February 2015‎ , about one minute later User:FreeRangeFrog had undone my revert stating "No it's not, please do not revert me again." Here is the source http://beautifulbritishbabes.co.uk/fcw/fc-full.php?ref=5018 which ought to end discussion on that point with that sentence restored.

Retirement: User:FreeRangeFrog deleted "Carmel Moore continued to work in the adult industry on both sides of the Atlantic until 2011 when she announced her retirement from the business." on the grounds that the info was "based on a listing". Her announced retirement was sourced not from a list but from an interview which is now unfortunately a dead link. However, its substance is confirmed by the two references earlier in the sentence. I am not too bothered about this 'dead' reference being removed.

There is nothing wrong with a biographical article that pieces together elements of someone's life from established and reliable sources of their work, particularly when that information is properly referenced as it was here. This does not constitute WP:OR.

In the light of the User:FreeRangeFrog edits I have reviewed the article before "triming" and have concluded that some changes User:FreeRangeFrog made were justified and have incorporated them into a new edit. Graemp (talk) 22:58, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I reported this to WP:BLPN in case someone is interested in trying to explain our policies to you, because I'm not. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 23:17, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

FreeRangeFrog is correct. Graemp please review WP:RS and particularly WP:USERGENERATED. You can check that IMDB is mentioned as an example of what not to use as reliable source. I also reverted a source you added <ref>The Observer 9 July 2006</ref>. It may be a reliable source, but please add a URL or the title of the article. This guide might be helpful: WP:REFSTART. Once you find sources, you can add information to the article. But please make sure that all content is properly referenced by reliable sources. Regards.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 08:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

I have added the title of The Observer article and restored. You deleted the reference for her weight which I have also restored. You also deleted parts of the article that used reliable third party sources, which I have restored. I have also re-instated other parts of the article adding references from reliable third party sources. BGAFD and IAFD are reliable sources and not what is referred to in WP:USERGENERATED as they are not Self-published sources. Regards. Graemp (talk) 09:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

IMDB is WP:USERGENERATED and not a reliable source. I have added a citation needed tag. To give you time to find a reliable source, if not you should remove that information. Thank you for adding a title to the observer reference. If possible also add a URL and please do the same with the bare Daily Mail citation.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

• I noticed that this article was mentioned at BLP/N, so I took a crack at editing it recently.

This site does not look like a reliable source to me, and I'm not even sure that it's the same performer that's in question in this article here. This site has the same image of a performer, which also doesn't appear to be the subject of this article here.

This site (with her alleged "real name" I guess?) might actually be about the subject of this article, but there's no other text to confirm this, so I don't think that it should be used in this article here. We need to be careful about the real names of these types of adult performers.

I'm not exactly sure what this site is trying to show for this article here. FWIW, the "British Girl Adult Film Database" is considered to be reliable only for their filmographies, not their biographies.

I also agree that IMDb shouldn't be used for its biographical info, but it can be used for its filmography only. Guy1890 (talk) 06:02, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Guy1890. The ventura site (if you look really hard) is in fact owned and run by the company Fiona Cooper which produced the credit in question, which makes it more reliable than any old distributor site. I can confirm that this site and the site beautifulbritishbabes.co.uk have not made an error and that the data is all correct information for the credit listed in both BGAFD (linked) and IAFD lists. Graemp (talk) 15:22, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I guess what you're trying to say is that one of the titles that Carmel Moore appeared in (Fiona Cooper DVD 660 from 2005) is the same as what this link says - the problem there is that the picture of that performer on the "beautifulbritishbabes.co.uk" site doesn't look like Moore (and making that kind of claim would really be at least borderline original research IMO) and the "Vital Statistics" (34E/22/33) quoted there don't match what IAFD has for this performer. The same thing goes for this site...the (same) picture doesn't look like Moore, it says that she's "only 5' tall" (she's apparently 5'2"), and her "Breast size" (E) & "Vital statistics" (34/22/33) again don't match what's on IAFD. Beyond that, we usually don't use sites where one can buy a performer's DVDs as a realiable source on Wikipedia. All of this stuff is apparently just about some supposed other stage names that Moore might have used in the past, which really isn't that important in terms of a Wikipedia article. It also really doesn't establish for sure that Moore did any glamour modelling, which is another minor point at best. Guy1890 (talk) 19:10, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

The image in the linked source is the subject of the article. Performers hair colour changes. Performers vital statistics can also change and can often be recorded incorrectly. You now seem to be questioning that she ever used the name Nasrin even though this is clearly stated in BGAFD and IAFD. I disagree with you when you state that an alias that someone used is not that important in a biographical article. Graemp (talk) 06:05, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Since you're obviously not listening, this will be the last time that I point out the obvious to you (and anyone else that is reading this thread here). BGAFD is not reliable for its biographical information, including supposed stage names. The venturadvd.com site is almost certainly not a reliable source either. You unfortunately don't at all understand the concept of original research on Wikipedia. Your uselessly stubborn behavior on such minor points is not going to serve this article here well in the long run. You can learn that the hard way though...we're done here as far as I'm concerned. Guy1890 (talk) 19:44, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Guy1890 earlier sought to argue that the two links showing images of Carmel as a brunette were not her and that by implication the credits should not be attributed to her, even though IAFD and BGAFD clearly include these credits. I thought that this was such an outrageous claim, that I decided to privately, (on the user talkpage) draw Guy1890's attention to this link which demonstrates more conclusively that they are http://pimpandhost.com/album/847962-Untitled.html I had hoped that Guy1890 would then come on here and acknowledge this, regrettably this has not happened. As regards to my apparent stubborn behaviour I would point out that the last 5 edits to this article have been Guy1890's and that I have not argued against any of those edits and have on this page even agreed with some of them. The BGAFD is currently used as a source in the article four times and on each occasion information is taken from her filmography (regarded by wikipedia as a reliable source) not her biography. Graemp (talk) 09:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the first paragraph because it relies on conclusions that are not directly supported by the sources given. For example, the first sentence states "In 2005, at age 20 and under the name of "Nasrin", she started glamour modelling in the United Kingdom as a brunette and performing in solo girl scenes." and cited it to websites pointing to a Fiona Cooper title. Nowhere do those websites support that statement. Is the Fiona Cooper movie supposed to be her first title or just an example of a g/g scene in 2005 as a brunette Nasrin? Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2015 (UTC)