Talk:Caribbean/Archive 1

Ok, clear this up

Alright people, it is not called is stupid'West Indian' and was neversamente feolsdflzui. Its the West Indies, which is a denography of its region. I knew it was just a matter of time before 'the man' tried to manipulate another peoples' history....sad really.

btw - no-one ever refers to a person from the Caribbean as a West Indian, they only may say that he/she is from the West Indies but never calling them West Indian. so hopefully thats cleared up. —Preceding mamamamamamamam notunsigned comment added by Drake2u (talk • contribs) 04:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

In the UK, people from the Caribbean are commonly called "West Indian" - much to the confusion of people coming from the Caribbean. Probably this is because of West Indian cricket team - as I understand it, the West Indies as a concept really only exists in cricketing terms! Apepper (talk) 11:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually no, its always the 'West Indies' cricket team or University of the 'West Indies', i've almost never heard it been refered to as West Indian..well 'till i came here that is. I hope Wiki clears this up soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.177 (talk) 05:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

What is the standard pronunciation?

What is the propper pronounceation of Caribian? Is it Ka-rra-bee-an or Kar-ib-e-an? How do locals say it? How do British say it? How do Americans say it?

From my experiences here, consensus within the Caribbean is "Kah-rah-bee-an", "Kah-ray-bee-an"or "Kah-ruh-bee-an". (That's the way it is for Vincentians, and, as far as I recall, Bajans, Grenadians, St. Lucians and Trinidadians.) Americans tend to malhandle it with "Kuh-ray-bee-ahn". I don't know about the Brits. Hairouna 04:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Trinis normally pronounce it more like Kyah-rib-ee-un or Kuh-rib-ee-un - Guettarda 05:28, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Britons pronounce it "Kah-ruh-bee-an", I associate "Ka-rib-e-an" with Americans and people who live there, but that's based only on Disneyland Paris and the Malibu adverts. 88.144.79.120 12:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you please try to work something into the article about pronunciation? samwaltz 23:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

There's something there now, but is it right? In the article it currently reads (the italics are an associated footnotes):

Caribbean (/ˌkærəˈbiːən/, kæ'rəbi:ən)

Both pronunciations are equally valid; indeed, they see equal use even within areas of the Caribbean itself. Cf. Royal Caribbean, which stresses the second syllable, and Pirates of the Caribbean, which stresses the first and third. In each case, as a proper noun, those who would normally pronounce it a different way use the pronunciation associated with the noun when referring to it. More generic nouns such as the Caribbean Community are generally referred to using the speaker's preferred pronunciation.

If I'm reading the IPA and footnote correctly, the two it gives differ only by the stressed syllable. I think those are the two most popular within the Caribbean, but it seems to me that we're omitting the one that I most hear from Americans. That one pronounces the first syllable as kʌr or kʌ'r rather than our kær or kæ'r. Should that be? Hairouna (talk) 04:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

There's definitely a difference between the two, at least to my ears. Using the examples included in the footnote, compare Royal Caribbean and Pirates of the Caribbean Online television commercials... But in all honesty, the footnote goes into way too much detail for me to be comfortable without a source. That was why I originally came here, because I was going to ask about a separate footnote and citations section as I've seen in a couple other articles. Jibbajabba (talk) 17:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

As a side note, it's an interesting role reversal if this is a US-UK pronunciation difference, as it would be the opposite of 'advertisement' (North Americans stress the first syllable on that word whereas it's the second syllable elsewhere). Jibbajabba (talk) 17:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right on all counts. Do you have a source in mind? Do you think we should just remove the footnote and leave the IPA pronunciation guides as they are? Hairouna (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Move page

This should be moved to West Indies, as in every single encyclopedia. --Cantus 08:24, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

West indies are a subset of the Caribbean Islands, considering the Honduran Islands are not in WI Dominick 10:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Reversion

I have reverted two revisions, which changed those islands that are currently "British dependencies" to being "British Empire dependencies". This is incorrect.

Those islands certainly were once part of the "British Empire", and I guess it is arguable (but contentious) that they still are part of a British Empire, although personally I think that is a rather obsolete concept.

The islands have never been dependencies of the British Empire; that translates roughly to the islands being dependencies of a colony of Britain. Maybe the US Virgin Islands were once such (if their dependent status predates 1777, which I doubt) but the islands affected by this change are all direct dependencies of Britain. -- Chris j wood 10:49, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

namechange west indies into carribean

I have a question: Is there someone who knows why the name: west indies had changed into Carribean? I need this kind of information for my history course, but teacher didn't want to explain this.

Thanxxxx Let me know!!

The name "West Indies" originates from Christopher Columbus' idea that he had landed in the Indies (then meaning all of south and east Asia) when he had in fact reached the Americas. The name "Caribbean" is named after the Caribs, one of the dominant Amerindian groups in the region at the time of European contact. The Caribbean consists of the Greater and Lesser Antilles, and is often considered part of North America.

Perhaps some North Americans consider the Antilles to be theirs, a notion that has been put in practice through U.S. Armed Forces invasions (pardon me, "interventions") in the Dominican Republic, Haiti and Grenada, among other countries. Have you asked the natives if they regard themselves as "North Americans", for example, the Netherlands Antilles' inhabitants? Preposterous! --AVM 15:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Preposterous is an understatement here, not even we Puerto Ricans who are given the American citizenship consider ourselves "gringos". - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

How did this ever get by wikipedians? Regardless of the origin of its name. the Caribbean refers to a region, while the West Indies refers to (most of) its islands. The name change of the article was a travesty and should be reversed. Sfahey (talk) 20:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: namechange west indies into caribbean

West Indies = the European name of the area. i.e. "West" of Europe.

To people in the Caribbean they aren't "west" of anybody except for Europe. It's an identity thing mostly, plus out of respect for the Amerindians that live there before was another reason. Keep in mind the island of St. Kitts had even legally changed their name from 'St. Christorpher' (which more then likely came from Christopher Columbus.)

Becareful with that double "r" spelling. I know in 'Caribbean English' we always stress the "r" and as such, some now spell Caribbean it like that. But it's supposed to be single "r" double "b".

Cheers.

CaribDigita 21:29, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Don't say that too broadly - we Caribbean people (down in Trinidad) under-pronounce our r's like English-speakers should ;) And we say Cuh-RIBB-e-un (like the English), not CAH-rib-be-an (like the Americans).

I wouldn't go so far as to say "Caribbean" was an indigenous name - it came from "Carib", which may have been a Taino/Arawak word for the Caribs, but not their own word for themselves. Guettarda 21:45, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

In all fairness, I was merely displaying empathy with the original author. I must say it's true there are dialects.  ;-) In Jamaica principally I find that the 'r' is very stressed and it's mostly websites from the same said location, where I find the double 'r' most. (However in more recent times you can find more web sites adding the mispelled version too as a redirect.) But you know even in Trin-bago I can draw upon an example being the musician Bunji Garlin, he is known for having a very 'Jamaican' flavor to much of his music. In his music you will hear that stressed "r" too.

The main too ways I hear 'Caribbean' pronounced is "Kar-ree-bean" "Ka-rib-bee-an" (In this example I replaced the 'c' with 'k' simply because 'c' in many other languages has a different sound. 'K' tends to be more standard.)

According to one theory, "Caribbean" came from the "Carib" indians, which were supposedly, (not only the more agressive of all the other tribes but) they named the entire Caribbean Sea the "Caribbean". As I understood it though they went further, and even called the mainland coast of Central America a part of the "Caribbean" too though.

CaribDigita 03:42, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From what I have read (and I have spent too much time reading about this recently) "Carib" and "Cannibales" was what the Taino told Columbus their neighbours to the south were called. The Caribs called themselves Kallinago, Karipuna and Karinya...from which probably comes Garifuna.

Bunji, like a lot of his contemporaries, sings with a semi-Jamaican accent. I wasn't making a real distinction though - I know the Trinidadian accent lacks a lot of the sounds present in the rest of the Caribbean. Of course Bajan is pretty distinctive too, but it shares the stressed r's. I get the impression (based on an overly small sample size, of course) that "upper class" Bajans speak very differently to the rest of the population. I had one lecturer in UWI, Oliver Headley, who had an accent that was just great to listen to. Of course he was a great lecturer...he would get to the point where he realised he had lost most of the class...he would acknowledge the fact, and then switch to something totally new. Guettarda 14:15, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I probably haven't studied as much about this specific topic as others here. From the examples I've picked up primarily, from UWI professors as well. A few of the other examples off the top of my head of pre-columbus names of geography which have lived-on include; I believe-- "Iere" which was formerly the name for Trinidad.

Jamaica I think was formerly called "Xaymaca"(spelling?). I don't recall which of the tribes was responsible for this name though.

Then there's "Carenage" or sometimes spelled "Careenage" i've read is also a name left behind by the peoples that had been long-time resident in the region all along. I want to suspect that probably in interior parts of Guyana one can also find many places named by the indigenious Amerindian tribe as well. I believe the indeginous people in our region have had a huge impact / effect on the names we use today.

Wasn't the native plant Tobacco, also one way Tobago got it's name? I feel if this is all accurate then we may indeed be calling a decent amount of places by their indig. names. CaribDigita 00:59, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Trinidad and the Greater Antilles are actually full of Amerindian names - in Trinidad - Chacachacare, Chaguaramas, Mucurapo, Curepe, Tunapuna, Tacarigua, Piarco, Arima, Chaguanas, Caripachaima, Naparima, Guayaguayare... Trinidad was Iere or Kairi (which actually mean different things). Tobacco comes from the word for the pipe the Arawaks smoked, not for tobacco. Carenage is a French word, careenage is the English equivalent I believe, where you clean and repair ships.

Haiti is the Taino word, Puerto Rico was Boqueron...Puerto Rico is full of Taino place names. Don't know much about the case in Guyana (except, of course, the name of the country), but Roraima if nothing else. Sure there are in the Lesser Antilles too, though not to as great an extent. Guettarda 02:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Some more - the obvious ones - hammock, canoe, hurricane, both yucca (for the root) and cassava (for the bread), manatee, savanna. Cuba, Jamaica - both derived from Taino words. Mammey (mammey apple), Gonaive in Haiti was Guanahibes, Manac (if you know the palm), Roucou (annato, but we use the Carib word in Trinidad)... Guettarda 02:29, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Puerto Rico as a whole was Borinquen, though we do have a sector called Boqueron, nice place ;) Now in the Spanish speaking Greater Antilless we say it like Ca-reb-e that was the original name given to the carib tribe in Spanish and its the way we still pronounce it today. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

West Indies vs Caribbean

While I know this isn't the proper distinction, I use the term "West Indian" to refer to what might be considered the former "British West Indian" - as a term for someone from the English-speaking Caribbean, someone from one of the countries that make up the WIndies cricket team. Guyana is thus part of the West Indies, even though it doesn't touch the Caribbean Sea. (It's also part of Caricom, of course). Caribbean is a broader term, which includes the Spanish-speaking islands. And the French and Dutch islands fall somewhere in-between - less foreign than the Spanish islands, but less familiar than the English-speaking islands. Although in some ways the French islands as more familiar than Jamaica. Both "West Indies" and "Caribbean" have their usage, non-identical, but if you have to pick one I would go with the broader term, Caribbean. Guettarda 14:29, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I basically agree with this distinction. As I use the terms, the Spanish islands (and some of Central America) are part of the Caribbean, but not part of the West Indies. The British islands are definitely part of the West Indies. The French islands are also part of the West Indies (and refer to themselves at times as the FWI). Same with the Dutch islands and former Danish islands. In general, I prefer the term "Caribbean" over "West Indies" when discussing the geographic region. "West Indies" is less inclusive and has more colonial, political, and socio-cultural connotations.

-- Gruepig 19:57, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I second the opinion of Gruepig. I have only just last week engaged in a discussion with some colleagues in which I was told that the term West Indies is most appropriately used to describe the entire Caribbean. I was only able to concede that the term was once used for that express purpose but in this day has come to have a less exclusive meaning and quite often distinctly refers to British Commonwealth nations or British Dependant territories. My only question in retrospect is: Which is the more preferable definition of the term West Indies, in this, the 21st Century?? --rkstaylor 15:48, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My preference is for the cricket definition. If they contribute to the West Indies cricket team, then each nation is part of the West Indies. If not, they are Caribbean. Note that this will throw up anomalies, such as Guyana being in the West Indies and the Dutch Antilles not, but cricket has so many historical and cultural ties that it is the best way of defining the 'West Indies'. Along these lines, the West Indies deserves its own page. 159.92.30.108 14:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The name "West Indies" originates from Christopher Columbus' idea that he had landed in the Indies (then meaning all of south and east Asia) when he had in fact reached the Americas. The name "Caribbean" is named after the Caribs, one of the dominant Amerindian groups in the region at the time of European contact. The Caribbean consists of the Greater and Lesser Antilles, and is often considered part of North America.

A question that comes up in this context, an one I haven't been able to find an answer for yet: Why the "West Indies"? The common answer is: Columbus thought he had reached "The Indies" (the name used for Asia - including Japan, China etc., not just India) on a westerly course. A paraphrase of this is: "West Indies" is used in contrast to "East Indies" (referring to the former "Indies" mentioned above). But this runs counter to the usage of cartographers and seamen at the time. An Englishman of the 16th. century would not have referred to The Netherlands, France and Belgium as 'Eastern Europe' although these countries lie to the East of the British Isles. Similarly, the Portugese discoverers searching for a way around Africa before Columbus did not call the western coast of that continent 'South Coast of Africa", although they reached this region on a southerly course. Given that it was common knowledge at the time that the earth is a globe, it must have been obvious that the islands discovered to the West of Europe by Columbus actually should be the *eastern* part of "The Indies". Why did they not name them accordingly?

Michael

Not sure, but that won't stop me from guessing. Perhaps because Columbus sailed west to reach them. This is the time period in which Spain and Portugal were dividing up the globe (Line of Demarcation) for conquest. --Gruepig 08:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

We should be careful in making too strict a distinction. English-speaking West Indians (perhaps with the exception of Bahamians) almost exclusively call people from the Caribbean "West Indians" or "Caribbean-persons". We never say "Caribbeans". I've never thought about it in terms of what we would call people from Cuba, Hispaniola and Puerto Rico (apart from Latinos for the Spanish-speakers), but I imagine that we'd sooner call them West Indians than any name directly derived from the word "Caribbean". ~ Hairouna 23:38, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much this may help, but the term "West Indies" is almost exclusively British. The Spanish did refer to the Caribbean as "Indias Occidentales" in some documents, which is a direct translation of West Indies, but the term was rarely used and definitely dead today. Instead the term "Antillano" or Antillian, the French used "antiles" and the Dutch used something similar to describe the people and the islands and the region. In Puerto Rico and Cuba, I know personally the term "Caribeño" is used as regularly if not more than Antillano. I believe the term West Indies was popularized by the British Empire to differentiate the region from the colonies of the "East Indies" in the Pacific.Mad05963 05:54, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The term Caribeño or Caribeña is extremely common in Puerto Rico and from my experience its used more than the term "Antillano". - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

British West Indies?, Anglophone Caribbean?, other, or Leave it be????

I was just looking glancing through the Caribbean article and there's something that catches my eye. It's the portion about the "British West Indies". And it states that "British West Indies" are countries that were or still *are*, a part of Britain? Is this a point of view case? I'm wondering if there's anything supportive of that?

There's a couple of common-situations I can think of which runs contradictory to this. In the Turks and Caicos Islands. (They are South-east of the Bahamas; that island group is still attached to the United Kingdom.) Or even British Virgin Islands (north-east of Puerto Rico, also part of the UK still.) When people from both of these locations sign their international letters/mail or post the mail-addresses I've seen put will read:

--Address-- Turks and Caicos, "British West Indies" British Virgin Islands, "B.W.I" etc. or "Royal West Indies", or "B.W.I" etc.(Writers' prefference.)?

What that tells me is internationally they are making a statement that those islands are still cery much a part of the "British West Indies". However in the independent states, (the ones which were once a part of Britain) they too in the *past* had signed as "British West Indies" however since independence I believe many if not all simply sign as:

For example:

--Address-- "(Jamaica), West Indies" or (Jamaica), W.I. ? Does anyone here in a current *non*-British possesion still write "B.W.I" or still see this in usage anywhere today?

I believe even BWIA (British West Indian Airways) which is located in the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago just calls themselves "BWIA West Indies Airways" today. Which effectively makes the past acronym B.W.I.A. irrelivent to be broken down any longer. Now "BWIA" is simply a brand name.

Further, am I not mistaken that the independent former British Colonies are called "Anglophone Caribbean" or "English speaking Caribbean"?

The Caribbean Music templates of Wikipedia support this idea as well, of an "Anglophone Caribbean" and and also another self-defined "British Caribbean" See Example: Soca_music

I reason that there is definantly still a "British West Indies". To the point that they sign their international mail this way. But independent islands I believe only usually sign their mail as (Island Name), West Indies? I'm not certain if anyone in an independent Caribbean island could continue to sign their mail "B.W.I." and always assume it would be routed correctly?

Perhaps I'm delving too far into this, should I just leave it alone? =) CaribDigita 23:02, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm in St. Vincent. I've never seen someone sign his mail as "St. Vincent, British West Indies" -- from what I've seen, it is always "St. Vincent [and the Grenadines], West Indies".

However, I'm used to calling the English-speaking Caribbean the British West Indies. I don't know if that's just me though. Hairouna 00:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

let me begin

Let me begin by first admitting that I no longer live in Trinidad. However, I have in the past sent letters to and from the island in which the address (also return) bore at its very end, in print, W.I. (West Indies) After reading your comments I am inclined to agree that there certainly is still a British West Indies, with the only addition being that I also believe that the British West Indies is more commonly and recently known simply as the West Indies.

I am glad that you brought this topic up and I hope that further discussion is fostered in this manner to help shed some more light on the actual understandings that some folks have of the matter. I myself, personally use the term West Indies to refer to the English speaking Caribbean.

--rkstaylor 16:15, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Usage of Trinidad, W.I. is a relic from the old Trinidad, BWI - it has no official status, just a cultural relic. If you have ever recived letters from Germany (in Trinidad) it's a definite hindrance (since the German postal service tends to send it to Wisconsin, though we have recieved things that went through the Philippines. On the other hand, Trinidad and Tobago gets there all the time.

There are British West Indies - British Virgin Islands, Montserrat, etc. Some of them use BWI, some don't. But I have never seen it used for any of the independent countries. Guettarda 18:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Its interesting that mail from Germany could go to Wisconsin, presumably as a mix up, especially as they have a reputation for being on top of it all. Of course it should be no surprise that my letters bearing Trinidad, W.I. coming from the UK have never (presumably!!) gone to Wisconsin. While its very true that Trinidad, W.I. is a cultural relic I wonder how much "official status" such matters have had ever since the departure of colonial powers? Not just in the Caribbean but in other regions also. --rkstaylor 16:35, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In America WI = Wisconsin. The US Post Office knows the difference. It may have changed in the last few years, but the local clerks in the German PO were quite clueless.

As for "official status" - 1961-1976 the name of the country was simply "Trinidad and Tobago", and it was a monarchy. Since 1976 it has been the "Republic of Trinidad and Tobago" (or, with regards to marine right, the "Archipelagic Republic of Trinidad and Tobago"). Government correpondence carries OT&TGS (On Trinidad and Tobago Government Service), and the technocrats abbreviate the government as GOTT or GoRTT. I have never seen an official document with "Trinidad, W.I.", although oddly, when government forms ask for "Nationality" there aren't enough blocks for "Citizen of Trinidad and Tobago" - you have to put "Trinidadian" or "Tobagonian". Always struck me as ironic.

I can't speak for the other islands. You should ask User:CaribDigita about Barbados. Guettarda 16:49, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

To Rkstaylor. You may indeed be correct about the British West Indies, in them making a move towards just West Indies as well. Last I knew the term "British West Indies" rested with them, wheather they've continued it, or retired it I do not know. In many of the other islands address standardisation is trying at best on the "West Indies" part alone.

As can be seen below: "West Indies" addresses from reputable sources. --

• Caribbean Court of Justice

www.caribbeancourtofjustice.org/ - "Trinidad and Tobago, W.I."

• Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago

www.ttparliament.org/contact.htm - "Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, West Indies"

• Univesity of the West Indies, Jamaica

mona.uwi.edu/ - "Jamaica, West Indies"

• Eastern Caribbean Securities Exchange (ECSE)

www.ecseonline.com/Feedback.asp "St. Kitts, W.I"

"British West Indies" addresses from reputable sources. --

• Government Information Unit - Monserrat(uk)

www.giu.gov.ms/contact.htm - "Government of Montserrat, B.W.I"

• Organisation of Caribbean States - Caribbean Planners Network (Note** only UK territories still use B.W.I -- If at all.)

www.oecs.org/cpn/profplan.htm

• Caribbean Financial Action Task Force (Note** Same as above see adddresses)

www.cfatf.org/eng/orgchart/

• Royal West Indies resort "Turks and Caicos Islands, British West Indies"

www.royalwestindies.com CaribDigita 01:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your insights. Wikipedia scholars are fast becoming a priceless resource... CaribDigita & Guettarda Thank you both, very kindly. --rkstaylor 15:57, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Am I in the Caribbean?

My understanding is that living in La Ceiba on the north Caribbean coast of Honduras I am in the Caribbean, yet according to the article only the islands of Guanaja, etc are in the Caribbean. I disagree, SqueakBox 18:25, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Yes and no, would probably be the best answer. Caribbean is more commonly resticted to the insular Caribbean. Sometimes, for historical-political reasons it includes Belize and Guyana, sometimes Suriname, French Guiana. On the other hand, the Association of Caribbean States uses a definition which includes everyone bordering the Caribbean Sea (plus Guyana and Suriname).

I think you should add that distinction to the article - sometimes resticted to the insular Caribbean, sometimes used for the entire Caribbean coast. Guettarda 18:32, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(Facetious answer - go down to the beach, put your foot in the water, and the answer is an unequivocal yes!) Guettarda 18:37, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also another suggestion if you do a search on a site like ebay for some really- really- old historical stuff and do a search for old--- historical maps of the "British West Indies" the British government usually included "British Honduras" and "British Guiana" on the sides of their maps of the "Caribbean". CaribDigita 23:32, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

British Honduras was what is now Belize, but of course there is a Spanish Caribbean world, including Cuba and the Dominican Republic. I have added Honduran coastal locations and want to do the same for othe CA and Latin countries, SqueakBox 23:56, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Bad Article

I strongly beleive that when discussing geography we should strive for clarity. This article does not do this. Caribbean and West Indies are used incorrectly and improperly enough that someone coming latter would not have a clear understanding between what they see on a map and what is read.

The Caribbean should be that sea bordered by the east coast of Yucatan and Central America (minor geographic), north coast of South America (geographic) and the line of greater and lesser Antilles. The Bahamas would fall in the Atlantic, like Bermuda and any portion of the continental US, including the Florida Keys, would be excluded. The West Indies would be all the islands hugged by the two continental masses, and their connection, excluding those islands close to the continental mainlands and their shelves?

This article touches on some discrepancies, I think, that are tied to "an idea" of the Caribbean. Cuba is rarely thought of as "Caribbean" or parts of the South American coast, yet the Bahamas and even Bermuda are. Part of this has a racial equivalency to "caribbean" that improperly excludes the correct geographic limits.

We should strive for clarity and not perpetuating, or giving credence to, ignorance.

The Bahamas are considered Caribbean. As a proof, if you call Hispanola Caribbean, you you have to include the Bahamas. Having spent too much time in the Florida Keys, I would have to dispute they are not Carbbean, but thats an issue of attitude and not latitude. Maybe they were officially Caribbean briefly, during the great succession of the Conch Republic. Nothing like crossing the barricades of the Border Patrol... Dominick 02:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

From a geographic standpoint, I agree that this is a bad article. However, as currently written, this page doesn't seem to be attempting to be a geographic article (despite the intro sentence defining the Caribbean). For that there's Caribbean Sea and Caribbean Plate (and perhaps there should be a separate Caribbean islands article rather than redirecting here). We could debate what the Caribbean is, whether it's a region or a people or a culture or an idea (and if all of the above, whether this page should refer to one of these, all of these, or be a disambiguation page, much like the page for America).

Whether this article focuses on geography or not, it must not contain geographic falsehoods. Folks, the Bahamas are not part of the Caribbean region. Really. They may be cultural similar, they may be frequently mistaken for being in the Caribbean Sea, but they are not geographically/geologically part of the Caribbean, no matter how much you wish they were.

I've moved the Bahamas to a new section. I'm not removing them from the article entirely, because I think they'd just get re-added, and I think it's worth mentioning that they have some ties to the Caribbean.

--Gruepig 22:44, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Bahamas

While I don't have a problem with Gruepig's changes, I would like to find something more elegant than "near the Caribbean". Guettarda 22:52, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I just couldn't think of anything.... Gruepig 04:09, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the Bahams and Turks and Caicos are a state and a territory that are geographically situated just north of the Caribbean region, but for historical, political and cultural reasons it makes a great deal of sense to lump them together with the Caribbean, rather than with the North American mainland. Note that the United Nations considers Bermuda to be in North America statistical region, along with Canada, Greenland, Saint Pierre and Miquelon and the United States. --Big Adamsky 13:44, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The structure of the Islands states have changed. The used to be a part of Jamaica. Which is in the Caribbean and then it broke off. CaribDigita 19:09, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, that would be the Cayman Islands. The Turks and Caicos were split off from Bahamas, not Jamaica, prior to independence in a similar fashion. And Mayotte from the Comoros. --Big Adamsky 20:52, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

While the latter may be true, the former is also. Guettarda 22:33, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Mmmmm-, actually the TC's were under the jurisdiction and control of the Jamaican government after their initial withdrawal from the Bahamas. See Turks and Caicos History In the 5th paragraph. To this day, the Constitution of the Turks and Caicos still has within it acts from when it was a part of the Bahamas as well as when it was annexed to the government of Jamaica. I, like others genuinely have no idea what you could call all of these islands + Bahamas in this case and have it be an 'easy and quick name'. My thought is "fringe Caribbean" is probably not going to stand-up in the real world(hunch). I thought it might be easier just to add a note to make it easier. Something like "The Bahamas are included, mainly on the basis of political and economic affilation with the Caribbean states and their close proximity to the region." CaribDigita 00:21, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected by CaribDigita here. Apparently the administrative power of the islands has been tossed back and forth between Kingston and Nassau, up until Jamaican independence, and then when both larger mother colonies had become independent, the Turks & Caicos were detached and are now a separate entity. But where are they located if not in the Bahaman archipelago then? Would you group Bermuda into the same region solely on the basis of economic ties and cultural closeness? The UN places Bermuda in a region called "Northern America" //Big Adamsky 00:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

This article has gotten better. But just reading these posts shows just how geography has been not a top priority. Big Adamsky, There is another option to putting the Bahamas in the Caribbean. It, like the US, Bermuda, Canada, etc are in/of North America. North America is then broken into regions of which the Caribbean, the Gulf, Tierra del Fuego, the Canadian Arctic, etc. There are also parts of North America that are off the shelf. Besides, I would not automatically use the UN resources as a guide. On a map of the world with the continents on it, South America is styled "Latin America". ( You only need to make the mistake of putting an ignorant person in charge, like at the CIA Factbook) . We all should be VERY clear about geographic and technical (which is not synonomous with "unnecessary or "non-essential") versus cultural, historical, and perceptive definitions.(Gary Joseph 16:04, 8 February 2006 (UTC))

Uh, it seems to me that putting the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos islands under their own sub-topic "Island territories near the Caribbean" is completely unwarranted. At first I was going to just rephrase the statement that now reads "Though not technically in the Caribbean Sea, the nearby Bahaman Archipelago is sometimes considered to be part of the Caribbean" to "Though not technically in the Caribbean Sea, the nearby Bahaman Archipelago is considered part of the Caribbean." But now I don't think that goes far enough. Barbados is also not touched by the Caribbean Sea, yet it is in the main article and is undoubtedly part of the Caribbean.

All things considered, it seems to me that, technically speaking, the Bahamas is as much a Caribbean country as Barbados is. (In other areas, however, the Bahamas may be considered somewhat un-Caribbean or only partially Caribbean.) Both of them are full members of CARICOM (although the Bahamas aren't too fond of the CSME), both share a common history and culture with the rest of the Caribbean, both are considered part of the Caribbean by every regional and international organisation I'm aware of (as well as by almost everybody, if not everybody), and neither touch the Caribbean Sea. Similarly, the Turks and Caicos Islands are quite Caribbean. So, since it seems rather silly to exclude Barbados like that, I'm gonna fuse the Bahamas and the T&C Islands into the main article until someone gives a good reason why they shouldn't be there. ~ Hairouna 23:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Bahamas are not in the Caribbean. A good example of how one entity has tackled it is the AAA (American Automobile Association) travel guide to the area was once titled (may still be) The Bahamas, Bermuda, and the Caribbean Islands. 75.179.5.126 09:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)Newbie

Caribbean as adjective - different spelling?

Has anyone else come across a rule wherein Caribbean when used as a descriptor is spelled 'Caribean'? This originated from a nitpicky argument between friends, and we can find no record of it online. So please, if you can confirm or deny this supposed rule we'd like clarification.

No. As far as I know and I've seen it's always Caribbean. Hairouna 04:36, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Trying this new popups tool

Unfortunantly one issue with this tool, it doesn't give you a chance to type reasons for a revert before it quickly forwards you to the next page. My reasons for reverting the last version by IP# Special:Contributions&target=4.131.138.137 to last version by User:Vary, was because that link is to French Dominica near Guadeloupe, and not Spanish Dominica next to Haiti. CaribDigita 14:41, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

West Indies article

It has already been pointed out that the article is in need of some work and I see it has already been debated whether to use "West Indies" or "The Caribbean". However, it appears that the terms "West Indies", "Caribbean" and "Antilles" all refer to slightly different, but related (and overlapping) regions. The Antilles has its own article and it is stated, both in the Antilles article and in this article on the Caribbean, that the "West Indies" consists of the Greater Antilles, the Lesser Antilles and the Bahaman Archipelago (Bahamas + Turks and Caicos). If this is so, then the West Indies are different from the Caribbean (as the Caribbean does not include the Bahamas if one uses the Caribbean Sea or the Caribbean Plate for the definition). So, perhaps we should have a serious review of the whole situation:

• Cuba is washed by the Caribbean Sea and thus is considered to be in Caribbean, however Cuba is not within the Caribbean Plate

• Barbados lies just east of rest of the Lesser Antilles and depending on how one views it, the island could be entirely surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean, or it could form part of the easternmost barrier of the Caribbean Sea. The problem of course is that Seas and Oceans have no true fixed borders. Barbados of course is on the Caribbean Plate, unlike Cuba, so for a different reason, it could also be considered to be in Caribbean.

• The Antilles are pretty easily defined, with the Greater Antilles including Cuba, Jamaica, Hispaniola and Puerto Rico and the Lesser Antilles including all the islands that stretch in a long, sometimes disjointed chain from the Virgin Islands right around to the Venezuelan Islands and the ABC islands.

• The West Indies is a region that once was considered to encompass all of the Americas, but later came to be more narrowly defined (and centred) around the Antilles and the Bahamas (and occasionally, but rarely, also included some mainland territories) cf. East Indies where geographically the term originally referred to a large area (India, China, Indonesia, etc.), but later more commonly (and politically) referred to a set of islands (the Dutch East Indies) and sometimes some mainland territories (the Dutch East Indies + British Malaya, Sarawak, North Borneo and Brunei).

• The Caribbean is a region that has no clear limits. Depending on the context, the term may refer to

• • the insular Caribbean - all islands washed by the Caribbean Sea, in whole or in part. This includes the Greater and Lesser Antilles, plus all other islands within the Caribbean Sea (which are not in either of the Antilles) such as San Andres, the Swan Islands, the Corn Islands, the Bay Islands, the islands off Belize, etc.

• • all areas washed by the Caribbean Sea - so the insular Caribbean and all immediate mainland areas, like Ceiba (Honduras), Bluefields (Nicaragua), Colon (Panama), etc. When the term is used in this context, it is particularly difficult to define unless one discounts political borders entirely, since the towns on the Pacific coasts of Guatemala, Mexico, Colombia, Panama, etc. would not fit into this definition.

• • the geological Caribbean - all areas within the Caribbean Plate

• • the cultural Caribbean - all areas in which the people share common cultural characteristics such as language (including creole formation), history (colonization, slavery and independence), music (reggae, soca, zouk, conga, rumba, ska, mento, nyabinghi, etc. - but mainly music that results from a blend of African, European and Indian influences). This term is mainly defined based upon these characteristics which are normally associated with the Caribbean Islands and territories by or near to the Caribbean Sea. So in this definition, you would include the Caribbean Islands, the Bahamas, Turks and Caicos, Belize, parts of Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, the Guianas and even Bermuda (basically the region covered in the ACS).

• • the political Caribbean - this context is also very unclear, since politics sometimes has little or nothing to do with geography, but it is basically the same as the cultural Caribbean, and can be narrowly defined as only those states in the Caribbean Islands or all the states in the ACS (member, associate and observer). Sometimes the term is rendered as "the Greater Caribbean" or "the Circum-Caribbean".

• • the natural Caribbean - the area which shares a common biodiversity (e.g. birds, fish, plants, etc.) Ask a good naturalist about this context since it need not be the same as any of the above.

Now the Antilles, has its own article, and on the grounds stated above, I think the West Indies should have its own article (or at least the section on the West Indies in this article should be expanded). In addition the article should start out by stating that "the Caribbean" is an amibiguous term, which defines slightly different areas depending on the context and then go on to give the different meanings.208.131.174.209 21:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Since this article is clear, 72.27.107.50 01:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • It seems perfectly clear that "Caribbean" refers to a region (regardless of its precise extent), while the "West Indies" are its islands. For sure "West Indies" deserves its own article. The only thing keeping me from fixing this is not knowing how to "un-redirect" the current "West Indies" link. Sfahey (talk) 20:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Piracy

why isn't there any mention of pirates of the caribbean (i mean real pirates)... piracy in the caribbean forms the basis of many modern legends...! Shakespeare Monkey 08:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That would go in History of the Caribbean. Guettarda 12:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

In English, someone from the Caribbean is called...

...a West Indian, not "a Caribbean". We're West Indians, not Caribbeans. There's only one Caribbean. >_> I've seen this error of calling West Indians "Caribbeans" over at the Caribbean Wikiproject discussion page and one can hear it in places like the Malibu Rum advertisements. As far as I know, Bahamians may be the only West Indians inclined to call West Indians "Caribbeans". Maybe this article should mention that people from the Caribbean are called West Indians and not Caribbeans. ~ Hairouna 17:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

{{Caribbean Labelled Map}}

{{Caribbean Labelled Map|float=right|size=200}} [1]: I propose we include the template {{Caribbean Labelled Map}} in the article. -- Zondor 22:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Support -- Zondor 22:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Can't we have a discussion without a vote? The template is incomplete and it will be almost impossible to list all Caribbean entities without making it impossible to correlate the names with the territories. Joelito (talk) 22:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen {{Europe Labelled Map}}, {{United States Labelled Map}}, {{Australia Labelled Map}}, etc.? -- Zondor 22:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I have now. Your point? Joelito (talk) 22:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is incomplete as the whole of Wikipedia is a work in progress anyway. It will become complete like the Europe template. It will become as detailed and accurate, otherwise even more accurate than the image map that already exists on the page because it can be edited. If the island is too small but significant, it will have a label anyway close a possible to the location. Otherwise, the background image of the template is at fault which may need to be updated. You can scale the template to a bigger size if it comes to that. -- Zondor 22:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we wait until it is completed then to argue whether inclusion is merited or not? Joelito (talk) 04:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Joel - I have no objection to the map, but it should be completed before it goes into the article. Of course, I would really like to see it include Belize and the Yucatan. Guettarda 13:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Restarting indenting:
The Turks and Caicos Islands, and Cayman Islands could easily be added without junking up the map ? .. -Mmcannis 20:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a wiki, it's not even supposed to be perfect from day 1. Include it in the article (replace the "Present-day island territories of the Caribbean" map, eventualy float:right instead of center), it will be an incentive to make it better. --Qyd 18:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Arabic

Removed from article:

(derived from ancient geographical documents in Arabic language which named it غرائب ,say Qaraeb, which means stranges or غريبة ,say Qaribah, which means strange; Spanish: Caribe;

This is totally new to me, and needs at the very least to have a solid citation. Guettarda 13:35, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

New to me also. Why would the name be derived from people who never came to the area? Joelito (talk) 15:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Guettarda, It is not a surprising matter when the scientists like Ibn_Khaldoun were living in Andalucia (in Spain) have written books all in Arabic language. Have you noticed the similarity of the words Spanish: Caribe and Arabic: Qaribah? Selecting this name came from the fact of the wonderful nature of the sea and its islands. Notice also the Reconquista completed in 1492 while Christopher Columbus has died in 1506. It means the Spanish people was aware of Arabic language those days at least up to 15th century. O.K., I will do my best to find a good reference but it was better not to delete new ideas from the article enabling other contributors help. Farhoudk, 20 November 2006

It is common knowledge that the area (the Caribbean) is named after the Caribs. The etymology of the word Carib is unknown to me but I can take an educated guess that it has an Amazonian or Orinoco origin. I would need a scholarly source to convince me that the word has an Arabic origin. Joelito (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems the English word "Carib" is based on the Spanish 'Caribe', which is based on Haitian Creole. Or, at least, that's what askoxford.com says. ~ Hairouna 23:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Spanish from Haitian? That seems really strange. "Caribales" is used by the Spanish early on, and is, iirc, the root of the word cannibal. So I'd say the Spanish term is likely to predate Haitian creole (or French in St. Domingue). Guettarda 20:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The word "Carib" in Arabic language pronounces as غریب meaning "strange (male)" and "Caribe" in Arabic language pronounces as غريبة meaning "strange (female)". I am still working to find some good source. Farhoudk, 24 November 2006

The possibility of an Arabic root isn't sufficient - there are all sorts of "possible" etymologies that are unrelated to actual etymologies. Enough has been written on the root of "Carib" that if it has an Arabic origin, it's almost certain that this has been documented. I have never heard of an Arabic root for Carib. Something so unusual needs to be documented before it can be included in the article. Guettarda 20:00, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

where the buffalo roam..in the Caribbean

Hi,

I do linguistics and socio stuff, my biology is limited to "Keep Piling Cookies On Green Platters" (you know: kingdom, phylum ...etc.). The Arawak page was recently edited to place buffalo in the Caribbean. The edit removed caribou if I recall correctly. I have no idea whether either of these species could be placed in that location, but I am feeling extremely skeptical of a universe (probably an alternate universe) in which buffalo roam the Greater Antilles.

Oh gurus of all things Caribbean, canst thou help shed light upon these dark matters? :-) If you can edit the Arawak page and remove any patent nonsense and replace it with meaningful info, that would be a boon to humanity...

later --Ling.Nut 22:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, an octopus off the California coast was running around the "Fauna of the Western United States" for a while. Go Figger some peoples efforts... from the SonoranDesert of Arizona..--Mmcannis 22:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

New user category

I have created a new category for wikipedians who are interested in the Caribbean: Category:Wikipedians interested in the Caribbean--Vivenot 15:37, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment

I'm just wondering who wrote this article about the Caribbean, and how exactly they came up with the idea that only 'retards' think the Caribbean ectually exists? I guess they are referring to the actual name of the area. How do they know that only retards think the Caribbean exists? Did they do a scientific study of retards vs. non-retards? Since Wikipedia comes from a neutral point of view, I'd like to see the evidence to support the position that only retards believe the Caribbean exists. Thank you.

70.140.227.129 05:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The idea was the work of a vandal and lasted all of 3 minutes, from 19:37 on 23 January 2007 until 19:40 on 23 January 2007, when it was reverted by Wikieditor06. You didn't notice it was removed almost as soon as it appeared? Afv2006 04:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Guess I just came on it at the right time. 70.140.236.103

Demographic summary

It would be really nifty to have a summary table, showing for each nation/territory, things like population, GDP, language, former colonial power(s), host country (for dependencies), etc. -- Beland 02:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

True. Guettarda 02:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Germanic culture?!

I notice that articles and categories relating to the culture of various Caribbean nations (including Saint Lucia,Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados and St Kitts and Nevis) have been classified under Category:Germanic culture, which seems somewhat bizarre to me. I have queried this with the editor who did this and this was his response:

"Well English and the English people in general have shaped it so as they use a Germanic language, and have many Germanic characteristics, if I am not mistaken it is also under "Caribbean Culture" as well?, so i think that gives it justification, since its a "blend" of cultures."

What is the opinion of other Caribbean editors out there? --Vivenot 15:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Its no doubt because of some vote somewhere. The "Latin America" article claims the English Speaking Caribbean are a part of "Latin America". The North America article claims "the Caribbean is a part of North America" people on Wikipedia are getting confused because of the changing of variables to always have things fit in neat and tidy definitions all the time and that's the end result. As far as I know, the closest the Caribbean really came to Germany would be when Germany took over the Netherlands and France during W.W.II. In that case, all of the French or Dutch territories in the Caribbean would have become by definition German territories. And if Britain was taken over by Germany all of the British territories would have likewise become a part of German empire. CaribDigita 19:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"Germanic culture" refers to the culture of the Germanic people (not the Germans solely, otherwise it would have been "German culture"). There isn't anything wrong with this insomuch as English culture (and for Suriname and the Dutch islands, Dutch culture which is also Germanic) has influenced the English speaking islands somewhat: just look at cricket. That was an English game, but it has spread. The original editor is completely correct when he mentioned the blend of cultures. On the various islands you'll find European cultures (either Germanic (English, Dutch, Danish) or Romance (French, Spanish and maybe some Portuguese) or both), African cultures, Indian cultures, Chinese cultures all mixed together. It is true that some of these cultures are more specific to one group or another, but many times there are blends, e.g. Trinidad and Tobago playing cricket (from the English - a German culture), having carnival (which is ultimately of Romance culture as is shown by its name), celebrating Diwali (Indian) and telling various derivative folk-stories of West African origin. I don't see anything wrong with adding the Germanic culture category, since its very likely that Cuba and Dominican Republic are probably within the Spanish culture or Hispanic culture or Latin culture category. I personally don't agree though with the Latin America article claiming the English and Dutch speaking Caribbean (and surrounding regions) as being in Latin America. Napolean III (who came up with the term), specifically meant the Spanish and Portuguese speaking (and maybe the French speaking) areas of Americas (hence the term). The inclusion of the English and Dutch speaking areas is due to : 1) ignorance on the part of people outside of Latin America (especially those who haven't done much geography and/or history) and 2) the lumping together of "Latin America and the Caribbean" in various international fora (from which people then just lazily or ignorantly refer to the entire area as "Latin America" for short). Their inclusion is equivalent to saying that the Netherlands and Switzerland are in wholly in Latin Europe (only Switzerland is partially so).72.27.85.108 19:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

But you still bypass a whole other group to get to "Germanic culture". G.C. Would be farther away then say British or African or East Indian culture. CaribDigita 18:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope nobody minded!

When I originally typed "West Indies" into Wikipedia, hoping for the cricket team, it came up with this, and I added a link to the cricket team's page. It's still there and I hope nobody objects Speedboy Salesman 14:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Bermuda is not in the West Indies

"Bermuda lies much further to the north in the Atlantic Ocean and is in the West Indies." Bermuda is hundreds of miles away. You might as well claim that the Canary Islands are part of the West Indies. Or Iceland. For reference, the land closest to Bermuda is Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, USA. The island is closer to Halifax (840 mi) than it is to Miami (1,100 mi). Unless someone can convince me otherwise I will remove this claim shortly. Plasticup ^T/C 02:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As it is written, so shall it be done. Plasticup ^T/C 18:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Bermuda's sometimes considered part of the Caribbean, though. Hairouna 02:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Britain used to include Bermuda a lot- on the old-time maps of the West Indies. I did a 5 second search on Ebay under the words "West Indies Bermuda map" and came up with one. See here [2] -- CaribDigita 17:05, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Is Hawaii part of North America? [3] No, and by the same logic, Bermuda is an independent archipelago. Plasticup ^T/C 02:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Depends. I don't think I've ever seen a map titled "North America" that had Hawaii included. However I have seen maps titled "The United States of America" that included Hawaii. The UK I believe just called West Indies locations as "Caribbean and North Atlantic Territories". Usually that's the phrase they use in the opening of some constitutions. Bahamas, Barbados

CaribDigita 21:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Plasticup, the islands of Bermuda are in the West Indies, for a number of reasons. Geographically, the term "West Indies" has come to mean a very restricted (but not very clearly defined) area within the Americas, but very early on, shortly after Colombus' voyage, the term "West Indies" was used to mean all of the Americas (since the term "America" hadn't been coined at the time). So at that time everything from Newfoundland to Patagonia (including Bermuda) was considered as the "West Indies". Eventually the term "America" displaced "West Indies", and the West Indies term increasingly referred to islands and other territories in, around and near to the Caribbean Sea (and for the British, the term meant all of their possessions south of Canada and excluding the Falklands). Using proximity to decide whether or not Bermuda is in the West Indies or not is oversimplistic. By that logic we would have to say that Iceland is in the Americas and not in Europe and that Australia is not a separate continent, but a part of Asia, by way of proximity to Indonesia/the East Indies. Also, what of Cuba? It's only 90 miles from Florida (as compared to Bermuda's 840 miles from Halifax and 1,100 miles from Miami....even the closest landmass of Cape Hatteras is 640 miles away). The example of Iceland can be taken even further when one considers that the European and North American plates meet on the island (there is no "West Indies" plate so one cannot argue about Bermuda's inclusion based on plates - in addition, Cuba is not within the Caribbean Plate so by that logic it isn't a "Caribbean" area just as how Bermuda isn't in the West Indies). The whole point of course is that we cannot simply look at distances today to discuss terms (such as the "West Indies", "Americas", "Colombia", "Europe" etc.) that have some history and culture behind them which can explain apparent pecularities about the definitions of such terms. I would put the sentence about Bermuda back in, especially as CaribDigita was good enough to provide a link to a map showing Bermuda as being considered part of the British West Indies (by the way, if someone wrote a letter with the term "Bermuda, B.W.I" would it get to Bermuda or be returned to sender?). However, since you seem to have been very set on the idea of removing it, and I doubt anything persons say or prove will convince you otherwise, I'll let it stay.72.27.162.184 23:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion vote

Please see the deletion vote at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Bahamian Americans. Badagnani 03:16, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Culture of the Caribbean

Can someone please create this article Culture of the Caribbean or Caribbean culture? --F3rn4nd0 ^{(Roger - Out)} 22:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? And are you proposing a split of sections from this article, or will someone need to write it from scratch? I do note that the cultures within the Caribbean are very diverse from each other, and it's probably better to cover the culture of each island or country on their own pages. - BillCJ 22:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Addition political economic regionalism

i just added a section of political economic regionalism which currently up. this should help explain regionalism as it pertains to the Caribbean. Please refrain from deleting this addition. it would be greatly appreciated.--Davey.latinamerica (talk) 00:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

caribbean

what is the history on the caribbean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.240.224 (talk) 02:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Caribbean vs. Antilles vs. West Indies

Among the most glaring errors in wikipedia is the continuing redirect from West Indies to Caribbean, which are as different as "squirrel" and "mammal". See excellent "West Indies article" section above. West Indies is the preferred term in English for the islands themselves; THAT should be the title of the main article on the subject, and it should be distinct from "Caribbean". At a minimum, "West Indies" might link to "Antilles". Might someone more skilled at wiki-manoeuvers please figure out how to resurrect an article entitled "West Indies" (proposed starter text below), or at a minimum change the current redirect so it goes to "Antilles". Thanks. Sfahey (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Proposed start-up for "West Indies":

see also Caribbean and articles on the individual islands

The West Indies is an archipelago some 2000 miles long that runs in an arc from the southern edge of Florida to the coast of Venezuela. It includes large islands such as Cuba, Hispaniola, and Puerto Rico, and some thousand much smaller islands. The name is somewhat of a misnomer, as it was assigned by Christopher Columbus when he arrived in the region in 1492, thinking he was approaching the coast of India. The Bahamas, which lie just north of the archipelago, are generally included as part of the West Indies.

Terminology of the region is often confusing. The entire island chain is sometimes referred to as the Antilles, which is in turn divided into the Greater Antilles, comprising the aforementioned larger islands, plus Jamaica) and the Lesser Antilles, comprising the remaining smaller islands. The latter are further divided by their relation to the prevailing winds. In this classification, the Windward Islands Dominica, Grenada, Martinique, Saint Lucia, and Saint Vincent, while the Leeward Islands include the Virgin Islands, Antigua, Guadeloupe, Saint Kitts and Nevis, and Antigua. The southernmost islands of the archipelago lie off the northern coast of South America. They are often referred to as the Dutch Antilles, and include Trinidad and Tobago and Curacao.

Don't forget Guyana. Guyana has always been considered as "West Indies" as well... Any historical map of the West Indies tends to include Guyana. Also who says "Caribbean" is an "error"? and who says what is or isn't "more common" in English source??? CaribDigita (talk) 04:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, see all the arguments in "West Indies article" above. At a minimum, "Caribbean" refers to the water itself, which "West Indies" clearly does not. Sfahey (talk) 15:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

IMHO Caribbean is fine... Example: *George W. Bush proclaims the month of June as Caribbean-American Heritage Month

George W. Bush, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim June 2008 as Caribbean-American Heritage Month," the proclamation read.

. As can be seen "Caribbean" may be perfectly acceptable in the "English language". What do other think? CaribDigita (talk) 04:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I would go with a standard dictionary or encyclopedia: Merriam-Webster for example says "carribean" refers to "the Caribs (i.e. the native peoples), the eastern and southern West Indies, or the Caribbean Sea". The West Indies clearly refers to a subset of "Caribbean", as plainly as "squirrel" is a subset of "mammal" Sfahey (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Caribbean and West Indies

Are Caribbean and West Indies different concepts? According to the introduction, West Indies contain only the islands, whereas Caribbean also involves continental coasts. Andres (talk) 08:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Christmasy complaint

Can anyone grasp the concept of plain old garden variety geography? People try and link the Bahamas, Turks and Bermuda to the Caribbean because of political or economic connections. In fact the Bahamas, Turks and Bermuda are not in the Caribbean Sea. The Caribbean is not a region it is a body of water. Then again the West Indies are not a body of water but a group of islands. Basic set theory. Not all of the Caribbean Islands are in the West Indies. Not all the West Indian Islands are in the Caribbean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.130.71.101 (talk) 15:21, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The Caribbean Sea is a body of water, the Caribbean isn't. You see, the Antilles mark a division line between the Caribbean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. - Caribbean~H.Q. 19:52, 24 December 2008 (UTC)