Talk:Caressa & Français

Helps

Okay, just recapping in case I've missed anything. Milliot created the page, and RadioFan tagged it as {{nofootnotes}} one minute after creation. Milliot removed the tag, and since then tags have been added and removed between the two. There is a copyright issue regarding the page also, which needs to be resolved. Firstly, Milliot. If the Smithsonian has agreed to allow us to use some of its text, an email needs to be sent to WP:OTRS with some verifiable permission. This will then allow trusted Wikipedia administrators to properly evaluate the copyright status of the text. RadioFan, I know personally you and me had a similar issue involving you tagging an article not long after it was created. Again, try to give ample time for the creator to expand on the text, to provide footnotes. If you think something is notable then let the creation run its course. Adding maintenance tags, repeatedly, most likely only served to annoy Milliot, perhaps causing edit conflicts and other issues. If the author claims he has permission, sending him a link to WP:OTRS would be beneficial for both parties.

Finally, despite whether who you think was 'wrong', spending a few moments to stop, and try to discuss things often resolves the issue before things get heated. ∗ \ / (⁂) 23:05, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your input \ /. I have been in touch with the Smithsonian Institute, and discussed the matter with haberstichd@si.edu, feel free to contact them and confirm that the material is not copyrighted and we are allowed to use some of their content. The only part used, is a small bio on Jacques Francais who is the grandson of Caressa & Francais, and he carried on the business in NYC which he acquired from his father Emile Francais (son of Henri Francais).Milliot (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Milliot, I'm afraid the onus is upon you to:

1. Obtain permission not only to use the content, but to re-license it under the GFDL v 1.2 and later versions.
2. Send this permission to the OTRS system.

We can't, sadly, simply accept the idea that we should email the institute to check out your claims. Similarly the permission cannot be accepted unless it is a permission to relicense the content - a permission for us to use the content (with no other rights) is no good because it conflicts with Wikipedia's own licence - namely in that our licence allows other users to create derivate content. This licence (GFDL) must be agreed to by the copyright holder. Martinp23 23:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I will deal with it as per your request. But please tell me, if it is a quote in the quote section, why is it still a copyright issue? and if the institute says it is not really copyrighted material anyway, what then?Milliot (talk) 00:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If the content has come from them but they claim to not be the copyright holder, then it would need to be determined whether the copyright had expired and/or who does own the copyright. Quotes of copyrighted text can generally be allowed if they are brief (probably under a form of fair use), but extensive quoting as we see here isn't acceptable - it'[s not so much as quote as it is a vast part of the article. It might be better just to use the information contained within the quotes to write encyclopedic and original content, then citing the quotes as sources, pointing to wherever you got them from. Wikiquote, a sister project, may be more appropriate for long quotes if they can be suitably licensed. Thanks. Martinp23 00:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to Mart and ⁂ for jumping in here and bringing a needed 3rd party point of view. I think this is resolved as things have calmed down and most importantly the copyvio issue is on its way to be resolved. Also, Milliot appears to have read the guidance on footnotes because they are adding some great references. I'd like to help more, wikifying these ref tags with the {{cite}} template but I'm not familiar enough with the references to do it correctly. I'll leave it to Milliot to continue to improve these references. --RadioFan (talk) 02:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I have cut half of the quote (in question). This part:

"Jacques Français’s early training was in the Paris shop, beginning work at the bench at age twelve. At age eighteen he was apprenticed to violin maker Victor Aubry in Normandy. He completed his apprenticeship with George Apparut in Mirecourt. He then worked in his father’s shop on Rue de Madrid and in the shop of Fridolin Hamma in Stuttgart, Germany. He was sent to New York City in 1947 and worked under Simone Sacconi in the shop of Rembert Wurlitzer Co.. After a year Jacques returned to Paris to work in his father’s establishment. A year later, Jacques returned to the United States and opened his own shop in New York on 57 th St. near Carnegie Hall. He pursued a career in the repair and sale of rare violins independent of his father. Over the course of its lifetime the shop became well-known and was patronized by many of the preeminent names in the concert world."

The content in question is from the Smithsonian Institute. When I spoke with them by phone about it, they said it was no problem to use it. They had no issues with copyrights, the content is from a vast collection which was donated by the Francais family. They also said there has been a lot of interest in the use of this content, as it was a prominent Luthier family, that started in the 18th century and is still going strong.Milliot (talk) 02:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

This seems like material that could be used to write a very encyclopedic section using this as a reference. Why do you feel this material must be quoted?--RadioFan (talk) 02:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If you have time, would you like to give it a shot? Thanks in advance.Milliot (talk) 02:34, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I tried but ran into edit conflicts with you. Could you use the {{inuse}} tag while you are actively editing removing it when you are done so I (and any other editors) will know when conflicts can be avoided.--RadioFan (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

also, another good source is available in the New York Times obit

Thanks. I assume that I put {{inuse}}, publish that, and then go on editing?Milliot (talk) 03:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

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