Talk:Carbon capture and storage/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Criticisms?

Where are the criticisms of this page, it seems really biased in favor of sequestration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thzatheist (talk • contribs) 17:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sequestration is what this page is here to talk about, right?

The criticisms of sequestration are discussed here, in the leakage section, and elsewhere. If you feel that there is an important factual criticism of CCS that is missing, feel free to post it up and provide a reference.

Unfortunately, many of the criticisms of CCS being thrown about by many otherwise well-intentioned organizations are very far from factual. Sfj4076 (talk) 14:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Any general chemistry book is a good reference to show that CCS is not a sound science. But then again, go back to the origin... why trap CO2 when it has never been proven to be the culprit for the global warming that was observed (ref. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24036736-7583,00.html). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.124.199.11 (talk) 19:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

All very well to say this, but why not explain it, reference it and add it to the article if it's true? I'd be really keen to see this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uradbean (talk • contribs) 20:52, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Is the bulk (weight and volume) of what's captured worth a mention? From the chemical formula CO2, it would seem that what's to be captured will be at least 3x the weight of the carbon burned. Possibly 4x the weight if loss of efficiency is taken into account. Then, also considering densities, in liquid form the volume of CO2 leaving a power station will be about 11 times the volume of coal arriving, and in solid form the volume of CO2 leaving a power station will be about 5 times the volume of coal arriving. Perhaps a mention under transport? Opinions please. Clive Harris (talk) 10:59, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't spend much time on the page (somehow it's on my watchlist), but it sounds like you know what you're talking about, so absolutely, go and dig up some references and edit the article itself. Thanks, Awickert (talk) 18:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

In criticism of CSS, I'll simply make this reference: http://pdfdatabase.com/download_file_i.php?file=965296&desc=Literature+Review+Greenhouse+Gas+and+Carbon+Sequestration+Implications+of+Silvopasture+.pdf 71.243.120.235 (talk) 16:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Um, the literature review site is not working/bogus. Large commercial scale CCS has not actually happened, on a testable scale to prove CCS theory. Also, perhaps someone should mention that the DOE pulled out of Future Gen Pilot project due to the massive budget increases required, from 600million to 1.8million... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.240.245.38 (talk) 08:40, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Carbon sequestration

I propose to use on the CO2 storage (sequestration) only summary of the current text and move most of the information into the Carbon sequestration. Beagel (talk) 19:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to see a sandbox of this. It would be a massive edit. Don't forget that this article is quite high-traffic for a specific geoeng / mitigatin technique, so a fuller article may be better. I personally see the current format as reasonably OK, although I'm not going to defend it until I see your ideas.Andrewjlockley (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Reducing fatality chance restriction

Perhaps it can be mentioned in the article that legally reducing the national restrictions on the chance of fatalities would be beneficial to accelerating the setup of sufficient ccs storage sites. This as the risk of release of carbon dioxide (a lethal gas if inhaled for extended period and/or at extended dosage; aldough much more dangerous gases are used frequently in cities) needs to be very low, restricting the placement of ccs sites near populated places. As mostly old gas reservoirs are used, which are frequently located near towns, this restricts the fast placement a great deal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.243.183.4 (talk) 13:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Carbon storage by injection in soil

Can a seperate section include carbon capture & storage by injecting carbon directly into the soil ? This differs from the geological storage method as it does not use a underground cavity to pump the co2 in. Could be mentioned with biochar and terra preta See http://www.mistra.org/mistra/english/research/ideasupportgrant/ideasupportgrants/amobilepyrolysisunitforcarbonsequestrationandfertilizerproduction.4.87749a811cbd4c4fb4800036256.html

To state that "we cannot even inject a measurable amount of oxygen in the ground" in response to a criticism that CCS sequesters 2.5 times more oxygen than Carbon in turn proves that the amount of CO2 that can be sequestered by CCS must, by that definition, also be irrelevant. 174.3.17.10 (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Oxygen sequestration

I find this sentence in the introduction : "One must consider the long term effects of oxygen depletion" No, one must not : the quantities of molecular oxygen addressed by CCS are in the range of the ppm - parts per million. There is absolutely no way that we can even inject a *measurable* amount of oxygen in the ground. This paragraph is on the verge of childishness, and has nothing to do in an encyclopedia. Last but not least, it is not sourced, and I strongly suggest to suppress the following 3 paragraphs :

""Geologic carbon capture and storage" is a misleading term. This is because the technique stores more than twice as much (by mass) oxygen as it does carbon. For every 12 tonnes of carbon stored underground, another 32 tonnes of oxygen is sequestered. The math is simple high school chemistry - a tonne mole of Carbon weighs 12 tonnes and attaches to 2 tonne moles of Oxygen each weighing 16 tonnes. So 12 tonnes of Carbon plus 32 tonnes of Oxygen to yield 44 tonnes of CO2.

. The effects of CO2 took several thousand years to manifest themselves following the birth of mass agriculture. Even several hundred years of CCS might only capture several hundred atmospheric ppm of CO2—but also more than twice that amount of oxygen. As man continues to deforest, desertify and urbanize, Earth loses its ability to maintain global oxygen levels through plant-derived CO2 conversion to oxygen. This alone is resulting in a slow global decline in atmospheric oxygen content that is rather alarming. This from a recent UN study on climate change: [6]

Regarding percentage of oxygen present in the atmosphere in the geological past, it was revealed that air bubbles trapped in fossilized amber had been analyzed and found to contain oxygen levels of 38%. Yet today it is well known that the average content of the oxygen in air is only 19% to 21%. If we believe on the report of oxygen level in the fossilized amber, it appears that since the early history of our earth there has been a stunning decrease of 50% in the average oxygen content of the air we breathe. According to other report, analysis of the air in various parts of the world today reveals the frightening fact that the oxygen content continues to decline. In fact in some of the larger and therefore more polluted cities the oxygen levels have been measured at a disturbing level of 12 to 15%."

Thanks for your input. --Environnement2100 (talk) 14:20, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, oxygen content has varied very significantly over geological time. The first 3/5th of Earth's lifetime, there was no significant free Oxygen in the atmosphere - then those pesky algae started polluting everything with the emissions from photosynthesis. Take a look at File:Sauerstoffgehalt-1000mj.svg. But no, while there is a measurable reduction of O2 due to fossil fuel burning, it's not on the order of percents. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Need discussion of compression

This article moves directly from capture to transport. The need to compress the CO2 before transport or at least before sequestration is not discussed. This is a major energy sink and while it was included in the in the capture phase economics of the IPCC report on CCS, it needs a much fuller discussion here. This is one of the major reasons that electricity costs from coal fired plants would increase dramatically if they included CCS technology. In fact it would be nice to see how much the capture, compression, transport and storage contribute to electricity price increases. 96.233.108.14 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC).

I don't get it-or maybe they don't?

sections such as "what to do with spare CO2" miss the point that it takes energy to do things with CO2 and that as such it would probably be better to leave coal etc in the ground and generate electricity through renewables instead. Lowattboy (talk) 16:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Algae based Carbon Capture

This paragraph leads to believe that algae-based processes can be used for industrial-level carbon capture. A simple calculation shows (following the text allegations) that a medium-sized power plant, generating 600 MW, would need 15 000 hectares of algae - that also means 15 000 hectares of water. That does not hint at an industrial useful solution, and I see no ref towards such project. I suggest to remove the whole paragraph, which is not sourced at all anyway.--Environnement2100 (talk) 00:05, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposed addition of Safety Concerns

I would like to add a paragraph on safety concerns of geologically sequestered carbon dioxide, and reference the article on Lake Nyos. I'm not interested in generating a flame war - and this is a real concern - nor do I wish to take a confrontational position on the process of sequestration itself. However, I feel that the matter of sudden releases of a dense and potentially lethal gas should be addressed. I solicit comments, either pro or con. Norm Reitzel (talk) 22:27, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

This page is terribly out of date!!

I really do not have time to fix this page, but by all means, friends, give it some love here. In the opening paragraphs it mentions the Vattenfall and other projects to be realized in 2007? what happened after?

Priority: There is no mention in the opening paragraphs of the much-reported 2014 Boundary Dam Coal Plant, the only commercial coal plant so far with CCS. Note the cost is crushing for Sasketchwan energy consumers and taxpayers.

According to a new report, "the project generates losses in excess of $1-billion [Canadian] for electricity consumers of Saskatchewan: they will be paying for those losses through higher electricity prices for many years to come. That this CCS project was nonetheless built may be related to the nature of the principal beneficiary: The oil industry will substantially profit from a below-cost source of carbon dioxide which it will use to increase oil production from the aging Weyburn Oil Field in Saskatchewan. " Only a little more than half of the captured CO2 will be permanently sequestered, at an effective cost of 100$/ton CO2, paid by energy consumers.

http://www.saskwind.ca/boundary-ccs http://grist.org/climate-energy/turns-out-the-worlds-first-clean-coal-plant-is-a-backdoor-subsidy-to-oil-producers/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by KyotoGrrl (talk • contribs) 02:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Copy-edit

I stopped by this article as part of the March 2011 GOCE backlog elimination drive. I did what I could for a copy-edit, but there seems to be quite a few issues.

• I think consensus needs to be reached as far as language and measurement. It starts out in one (United States) but towards the middle, it shifts to British usage, and then back again. Any thoughts?
• The section on current projects sorely needs attention. Some of the dating is vague, and other parts of it are outright outdated.
• I think it would be good to bring in an expert on this one. While I can try my best copy-editing, this article could use a good look-over by someone in the field.
• Additional in-line citations would be helpful towards the end of the article. I tried to place cite needed tags when I remembered.

I think the other tags explain themselves. After the issues are cleared up, please replace the copy-edit tag, or go directly to WP:GOCE and place a request there. If there is anything else I can do, please let me know! -Pax85 (talk) 21:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Resource: NYT Utility Shelves Ambitious Plan to Limit Carbon by Matthew L. Wald and John M. Broder.

Resource: Utility Shelves Ambitious Plan to Limit Carbon by Matthew L. Wald and John M. Broder in NYT published: July 13, 2011. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 17:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

First sentences ...

A major American utility is shelving the nation’s most prominent effort to capture carbon dioxide from an existing coal-burning power plant, dealing a severe blow to efforts to rein in emissions responsible for global warming. American Electric Power has decided to table plans to build a full-scale carbon-capture plant at Mountaineer, a 31-year-old coal-fired plant in West Virginia, where the company has successfully captured and buried carbon dioxide in a small pilot program for two years.

The West Virginia project was one of the most advanced and successful in the world. “While the coal industry’s commitment and ability to develop this technology on a large scale was always uncertain, the continued pollution from old-style, coal-fired power plants will certainly be damaging to the environment without the installation of carbon capture and other pollution control updates,” said Representative Edward J. Markey, Democrat of Massachusetts, co-author of the House climate bill. “A.E.P., the American coal industry and the Republicans who blocked help for this technology have done our economy and energy workers a disservice by likely ceding the development of carbon-capture technology to countries like China.” (See American Clean Energy and Security Act)

But all such efforts collapsed last year with the Republican takeover of ther House and the continuing softness in the economy, which killed any appetite for far-reaching environmental measures. A senior Obama administration official said that the A.E.P. decision was a direct result of the political stalemate. “This is what happens when you don’t get a climate bill,” the official said, insisting on anonymity to discuss a corporate decision that had not yet been publicly announced. ... But with the demise of the Mountaineer project, the United States, the largest historic emitter of global warming gases, now appears to have made little progress solving the problem.

97.87.29.188 (talk) 17:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

What about FutureGen? 99.181.135.85 (talk) 10:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

COA conveyor belt

I don't understand this phrase and couldn't find any coherent references that defined it. Unless someone can explain it, it should be removed or (prefereably) replaced by a phrase more likely to be understood. Wcoole (talk) 22:53, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed - I removed it. See #Removed reference to COA, below. --Chriswaterguy talk 00:41, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Energy requirements for sequestration

No mention is made of the energy requirements for sequestration.

An example is here:

https://bioenergykdf.net/sites/default/files/zpdfzholderz/NREL_Data/The%20Net%20Energy%20and%20Global%20Warming%20Potential%20of%20Biomass%20Power%20Compared%20to%20Coal-Fired%20Electricity%20with%20CO2%20Sequestration%20-%20A%20Life%20Cycle%20Approach.pdf

For a power plant with an output capacity of 600 megawatts:

After adding CO2 capture and compression, the capacity of the coal-fired power plant is reduced to 457 MW

In other words, 25% of the plant's output capacity would need to be diverted to the carbon sequestration processes. - Ac44ck (talk) 15:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

BE BOLD! Add it SmartSE (talk) 16:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The way I understand it, the accumulative nature of starage costs makes it sort of impossible. E.g. would the electricity consumer in ten yers time not have to support the monitoring of storage facilities of ten years and in 12 years, he'd have to fund - all through the electricity price - 12 years worth of storage? That would be completely unviable and only talking about price increase at the point of generation is not enough. Someone wrote in a forum once that this CO2 could be a valuable, sought after resource, but did not explain, and the forum was closed before I could ask for an explanation. If it is a resource, why then is the taxpayer milked for research funds? It is an enigma but we need to look at the LONGTERM costs of storage, if this so far unworkable idea is to be pursued. 144.136.192.15 (talk) 05:32, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Major Update

We have been working on a major update to the information on this page as it is slightly out of date as has been mentioned by other users. We propose to make the changes over the next few days, so please have a look once we have made the revisions and send us comments, we will of course consider all additional edits. We will attempt to keep this page more updated in the future.

The IEA Greenhouse Gas R&D Programme (IEAGHG) is an international collaborative research programme established in 1991 as an Implementing Agreement under the International Energy Agency (IEA).

IEAGHG studies and evaluates technologies that can reduce greenhouse gas emissions derived from the use of fossil fuels. The Programme aims to provide its members with definitive information on the role that technology can take in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

IEAGHG takes pride in being an informed but unbiased source of technical information on greenhouse gas mitigation.

The programme’s main activities are:

To evaluate technologies aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions. To help facilitate the implementation of potential mitigation options. To disseminate the data and results from evaluation studies. To help facilitate international collaborative research, development and demonstration activities (R,D&D).

For more information, or comments and questions, email Toby Aiken, Communications Manager, IEAGHG, at toby.aiken@ieaghg.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by IEAGHG (talk • contribs) 14:57, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Can somone revert the page to the version of 3 july 2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carbon_capture_and_storage&oldid=500531992) You can integrate the updates since then, but too much info seems to have been removed. 06:06, 16 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.116.161 (talk)

I would agree that too much material has been removed, more than 60k in fact, and scores of references. Removal of reliably sourced info is something that is frowned upon on WP. I have added multiple cleanup tags, as a lot of work needs to be done to bring this new version in line with WP format. I'm all for an update, but not a sloppy major re-write like this. Maybe we need to revert to the old version? Johnfos (talk) 20:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Added this line

Use CO₂ can be used for several purposes. For example, it can be converted to CO and then made into syngas. The option of using it for this purpose is being considered by certain companies as Shell (the moment the price of CO₂-emissionrights reaches 40 euro per ton). According to Richard Van de Sanden of the Dutch Institute For Fundamental Energy Research, the convertion of CO₂ into syngas costs about 60 euro per ton. 91.182.177.243 (talk) 13:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would be helpful to add the USD values as well to relate easier so 47.20 USD to 40 euro tons and 70.80 USD to 60 euro tons. Skyeyu (talk) 21:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Major Update continued

Following feedback after the major edit completed on the 11th of July, and the unsigned comment of the 16th of July, I have ammended the article to incorporate the relevant information from the original article, while still omitting that which is now out of date and incorrect. Hopefully all agree this is now a good article, with no oversights and inaccuracies. If there are any further comments or suggestions please contact toby.aiken@ieaghg.org Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IEAGHG (talk • contribs) 13:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Following on from comments in the sections above, I have reverted the page to the version of 3 July 2012 per Talk. Have also added an update tag. Please just edit the page in the usual way. Johnfos (talk) 22:42, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The revert made by the user above has removed ALL updated and relevant information - can someone please revert this to the page as I updated it on the 20th of July? The information now displayed is out of date, and the update I made on the 20th of July incorporated the relevant data from the original article with the new and updated elements that were required. IEAGHG (talk) 10:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Not likely, please discuss specific concerns here and proceed by editing in small steps and seeking consensus here rather than doing a major rewrite. Also please read WP:COI as your username and comment above indicate a connection to some references you were using. Vsmith (talk) 12:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

We were initially trying to update the article because a) the information was very out of date, and most of the references were either incorrect, or broken links, and b) numerous comments on this page were suggesting the information needed updating. Unfortunately, as this is a developing technology option for the mitigation of CO₂ emissions, the need for updates will be reasonably frequent, but as nothing has been done for a while, the majority needs replacing with more coherent and cohesive information, hence our attempt to update the article. Yes, our username is IEAGHG, and there is a reference in the article to our organisation, (which was already in the initial article) and if you look at our website, you will see we are a not-for-profit organisation charged with evaluating technology options to mitigate the effects of climate change, and CCS is one of the main technologies we evaluate. Does this mean that we are not able to contribute to this article? We are relatively new to this, and were trying to help but it seems that we may be unable to? Some clarification would be appreciated. I have read the WP:COI and it does not really apply in this situation as our interests are the dissemination of the facts, we do not stand to gain or profit in any way from sharing our data and updating the information.IEAGHG (talk) 14:05, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

You are free to edit the article. However, if you proceed in small steps and explain with edit summaries or here, you are likely to be more successful. Also, please drop the "we" stuff as your username is for one individual and not for a group. In your editing strive for objectivity and avoid over referencing your organization - best to use multiple WP:reliable sources (as you may have done, haven't looked closely). Vsmith (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

You are free to edit and I believe that you are making valuable contributions. I would just to recommend avoiding massive changes by single edit and instead of it to proceed by small and explained steps as recommended above by Vsmith. Editing section-by-section or even paragraph-by-paragraph seems in this case more appropriate for avoiding potential confusion and misunderstandings. Also removing of reliable sources should be better explained. Otherwise, welcome to Wikipedia and your input is appreciated. Beagel (talk) 18:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Suggested edit

Hi, I note from the discussion above that there have been changes that have been reverted, and I would like to undertake to edit the article in the manner suggested; small changes, fully described here. My first edit will be a simple copy edit - there is a mix of terminology which would benefit from unification. There are different teminologies used by different regions in the world, and as such, this is possibly always going to be subject to changes by other users. Can I suggest that any users who want to edit the article stick to European, IEA terminology? This is fairly standard and the notable exceptions are the USA which uses some different terms, but the European terms are recognised around the world and are probably more realistic to use in this article. I will leave this comment on this talk page for a week or so, and then begin my copy edit. I will then highlight each change that i want to make before proceeding any further. Thank you! Tobyieaghg (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

The commented-out list of external links contains this comment "the following external links doesn't provide any info on wiki standards". I don't understand that sentence, but some of the commented out links are authorities on this matter. Ash (talk) 03:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

Carbon capture and storage terminology/CO2CS

This edit by Treesolution is grammatically wrong, "supported" by a source that does not mention the term CCS at all, and commits a classical etymological fallacy. It's also factually wrong. CCS is a well-defined term. It does not "remove two life giving gases" . O2 is removed by the original reaction that burns fossil fuel with atmospheric oxygen, not by the subsequent capture of the resulting CO2. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:02, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

In case you've missed it, I have tried explaining at User talk:Treesolution. SmartSE (talk) 14:31, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

In practice

Perhaps we can add a new headline "In practice" ? In this, we can mention which companies are looking into integrating the measure in practice on the local fossil fuel power plants. Some companies such as StatOil have allready commenced on looking at the option of putting it into commercial, wide-scale use. See http://www04.abb.com/GLOBAL/SEITP/seitp202.nsf/c71c66c1f02e6575c125711f004660e6/9ebcbfaedaedfa36c12576f1004a49de/$FILE/StatoilHydro+CCS.pdf and the documentary: Public Enemy n°1: Carbon 91.182.66.142 (talk) 12:41, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Oxygen cycle?

The statement in the first paragraph in the "Capture" section -- that "capturing and scrubbing the CO2 from the air, and then storing the CO2, could slow down the oxygen cycle in the biosphere" -- makes no sense to me. I believe it's just plain wrong. The citation that's given is support of it is a good paper on air capture by Klaus Lackner, but the paper makes no mention of any impact on the oxygen cycle. Agnostic Engineer (talk) 21:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I too believe that is just plain wrong, and it's clearly not supported by the source cited, so I deleted it. 71.212.235.120 (talk) 23:19, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Ocean storage

A larger section on "Ocean Storage" was apparently gutted at some point, and reduced to the sentence now there asserting that "such practices have been made illegal under specific regulations, and ocean storage is no longer considered feasible." Considered by whom? The actual situation is quite a bit more complex. Also, the citation that is given, "Scientific Facts on CO2 Capture and Storage" at GreenFacts.org, does not really support the statement. At the bottom of section 6 of that page, "Could CO2 be stored in the deep ocean?", there is an appended Note from the editor stating that "Because of its environmental implications, CO2 storage in oceans is generally no longer considered as an acceptable option." The source for that GreenFacts section (but not the editor's note) is the 2005 IPCC Technical Summary on Carbon Dioxide Capture and Storage. Section 6 of the latter does contain the following paragraph, under "legal aspects and public perception":

The global and regional treaties on the law of the sea and marine environment, such as the OSPAR and the London

Convention discussed earlier in Section 5 for geological storage sites, also affect ocean storage, as they concern the

‘maritime area’. Both Conventions distinguish between the storage method employed and the purpose of storage to

determine the legal status of ocean storage of CO2. As yet, however, no decision has been made about the legal status of

intentional ocean storage.

That was in 2005. A more recent article on the status of ocean storage was featured on a web page of Pacific Standard Magazine. According to that article, the 1972 London Convention, which regulates dumping of wastes at sea, was ammended in 2006 to "allow disposal of carbon dioxide under the seabed, but not in ocean water itself." It then goes on to say "But advocates of sequestration in — rather than under — the sea insist that their idea is not dead." There is still interest in that approach in Japan, because it lacks suitable geology for land-based storage.

Green Peace has strongly opposed ocean storage of CO2. Actually, they oppose all forms of CCS, but they have focused on ocean storage, and have been successful in blocking planned tests near Hawaii and Norway. Their opposition is not based on credible concerns about ecological damage, since 95% of all CO2 released into the atmosphere will eventually end up in the deep oceans anyway. Rather, they fear that if CCS is shown to be viable, it will be used as an excuse to continue burningfossil fuels. That will hinder adoption of wind and solar energy. The concern is valid, but it carries a presumption that blocking CCS will actually result in less consumption of fossil fuels. Agnostic Engineer (talk) 10:32, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Ocean storage merits more than a one-sentence blurb. Plazak (talk) 17:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

At a minimum, the ocean storage section should mention storage by injection into porous seafloor sediments. This is specifically allowed under the amended London Convention, and I believe that it is being used in at least one of the active test projects. It might be considered a form of geological sequestration, but differs from land-based forms (saline aquifers and capped sandstone reservoirs) as well as injection into depleted off-shore gas fields (e.g., Sleipner) in the seqestration mechanism. The sediments into which the CO2 is injected must be deep enough to be below the ocean thermocline. They are therefore cold and wet. CO2 injected into the body of the sediment layer may diffuse upward, but before it can reach the ocean floor, the temperature will become low enough to form solid CO2 hydrate. The hydrate layer caps the reservoir and, together with the sediment in which it's embedded, blocks diffusion into the ocean.

Sorry, but I don't have a handy reference for that. I may try to find one later. Agnostic Engineer (talk) 21:24, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd be interested to know whether that particular process you described has been tested or is just speculative at this point. 71.212.241.124 (talk) 22:04, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The article should not be restricted to what is (presently) allowed. The concept and pros and cons of ocean storage should be presented, along with a note on regulatory status. Plazak (talk) 21:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Point vs. diffuse sources, and capture vs. reuse

This article largely follows the 2005 IPCC Technical Summary Report on CO2 capture and storage -- which is fine. But the IPCC report only covers capture from point sources, and it only covers capture technologies in which there was major interest at the time. It does not cover technologies for capture of CO2 from the atmosphere (including photosynthesis), nor does it cover CO2 recycling (capture and utilization). Some information on those topics has gotten into the article, but it is spotty and tends to conflict with the bulk of the article's focus on what might be called "conventional" point source CCS.

Since the article is already quite long, I recommend that its introduction be rewritten to make it clear that it applies to CCS from point sources, and then direct separate articles dealing with capture from the atmosphere and recycling / utilization as alternative mitigation strategies. The whole of section 5 could then be removed from this article, beefed up, and placed in its own article.

The introduction currently defines CCS as associated with large point sources. That may be the most common usage, but the term itself is broader. I've seen "ACCS" for "air carbon capture and storage" used for approaches for capturing carbon from diffuse sources, and perhaps that could be the title for one of the new articles. Agnostic Engineer (talk) 22:15, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Removed reference to COA

I removed the reference to a "COA conveyor belt system". The original was "A COA conveyor belt system or ship could also be utilized for transport. These methods are currently used for transporting CO₂ for other applications." - No references were used and the only mentions of a "COA conveyor belt" I could find were copied from this article.

Please add back if there's a reference to back it up.

I'm doing work for the Global CCS Institute, but I don't believe there's a COI in the minor changes I made. (I also expanded the sentence about using ships.) --Chriswaterguy talk 00:46, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Reaction time in geological formations for CO2 to form stable carbonates? Years? Decades? Centennia? Millennia?

In the Chapter Mineral storage is mentioned "This process occurs naturally over many years and is responsible for a great amount of surface limestone." Anybody any links to some order of magnitudes like are we talking Years? Decades? Centennia? Millennia? Thy --SvenAERTS (talk) 07:52, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 external links on Carbon capture and storage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120321214944/http://www.moraassociates.com/publications/0701%20Carbon%20capture%20and%20storage.pdf to http://www.moraassociates.com/publications/0701%20Carbon%20capture%20and%20storage.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080116170736/http://www.greenfuelonline.com:80/index.html to http://www.greenfuelonline.com/index.html
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Adding Information about MOF technologies for Carbon Capture

Hi! I am a student at UC Berkeley studying Chemical Engineering. I am in a class on Capture Capture and Sequestration currently and would like to add information about MOFs as carbon capture technologies. Obviously, I will properly cite my sources when I edit but for now, here are a few of my sources for anyone who wants to check the validity of the information. http://www.chem.tamu.edu/rgroup/zhou/PDF/095.pdf https://www.netl.doe.gov/File%20Library/Research/Coal/43092F1.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v453/n7192/pdf/nature06900.pdf

Hazards of CO2 escape ignored

First of all there is a false assumption that we are dealing with pure CO2, and that up to 5% is "inert gas", which is trade jargon for the much more deadly Carbon Monoxide. The second flaw is this "titanic" belief that you can store hundreds of millions of tons of CO2 under pressure and it not ever escape. Like an earthquake could not free it, or some "gulf" pipe would not leak.

Carbon Dioxide is heavier than air and would cover the area like a blanket, suffocating the local population. Even when the wind dilutes it, lower concentrations have a strong stimulant effect on the heart which can cause heart attacks in people over 50 when the concentrations are as low as 5%.

The history of how this came about is intentionally glossed over, it was pushed by George W. Bush's Treasury Secretary who was from Goldman Sachs. Mass murder of the local populations by these gas leaks will free up the land and property for sale and clear out the 401k, pension and SS obligations. It is like genocide of the Indians 200 years ago all over again.

You have to look in an old pharmacology text to read about CO2 toxicology. Our EPA restricted its environmental impact study to its effect on ground water, not the impact of a failure to contain would entail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.77.182.46 (talk) 12:29, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

I do agree that this topic should not be overlooked but the idea of it being used for mass genocide is a bit out there. It should be something looked after and a article I think the ideas with proper citations should be added. TacoEditSquad (talk) 01:54, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Here is my proposed edited Capture Section

Carbon capture and storage (CCS) (or carbon capture and sequestration) is the process of capturing waste carbon dioxide (CO2) from large point sources, such as fossil fuel power plants, transporting it to a storage site, and depositing it where it will not enter the atmosphere, normally an underground geological formation. The aim is to prevent the release of large quantities of CO2 into the atmosphere (from fossil fuel use in power generation and other industries). It is a potential means of mitigating the contribution of fossil fuel emissions to global warming[1] and ocean acidification.[2] Although CO2 has been injected into geological formations for several decades for various purposes, including enhanced oil recovery, the long term storage of CO2 is a relatively new concept. The first commercial example was the Weyburn-Midale Carbon Dioxide Project in 2000.[3] Other examples include SaskPower's Boundary Dam and Mississippi Power's Kemper Project. 'CCS' can also be used to describe the scrubbing of CO2 from ambient air as a climate engineering technique.

An integrated pilot-scale CCS power plant was to begin operating in September 2008 in the eastern German power plant Schwarze Pumpe run by utility Vattenfall, to test the technological feasibility and economic efficiency. CCS applied to a modern conventional power plant could reduce CO2 emissions to the atmosphere by approximately 80–90% compared to a plant without CCS.[4] The IPCC estimates that the economic potential of CCS could be between 10% and 55% of the total carbon mitigation effort until year 2100.[4]

Capturing and compressing CO2 may increase the fuel needs of a coal-fired CCS plant by 25–40%.[4] These and other system costs are estimated to increase the cost of the energy produced by 21–91% for purpose built plants.[4] Applying the technology to existing plants would be more expensive especially if they are far from a sequestration site. Recent industry reports suggest that with successful research, development and deployment (RD&D), sequestered coal-based electricity generation in 2025 may cost less than unsequestered coal-based electricity generation today.[5]

CO2 can be separated, or captured, out of flue gas post-combustion with various technologies, namely absorption (or scrubbing), adsorption, or membrane separation processes. Currently, amine scrubbing is the dominant technology for capture capture. Metal-organic frameworks (MOFs) are a novel, promising carbon capture technology alternative to amine scrubbing. They can be use pre-combustion, post-combustion, or in oxy-fuel combustion in the process of burning fossil fuels to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.

Storage of the CO2 is envisaged either in deep geological formations, or in the form of mineral carbonates. Deep ocean storage is not currently considered feasible due to the associated effect of ocean acidification.[6] Geological formations are currently considered the most promising sequestration sites. The National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL) reported that North America has enough storage capacity for more than 900 years worth of carbon dioxide at current production rates.[7] A general problem is that long term predictions about submarine or underground storage security are very difficult and uncertain, and there is still the risk that CO2 might leak into the atmosphere.[8]

Thanks! Maudesquad (talk) 03:28, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Dr. Lange's comment on this article

Dr. Lange has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

Other than being a little outdated in terms of who is investing in CCS and the outcome of that investment, this article seems fine. Good balance of the upside and downside of CCS.

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

Dr. Lange has published scholarly research which seems to be relevant to this Wikipedia article:

• Reference : Dominique Thronicker & Ian Lange, 2014. "Determining the Success of Carbon Capture and Storage Projects," Working Papers 2014-14, Colorado School of Mines, Division of Economics and Business.

ExpertIdeasBot (talk) 18:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Other CCS plants

Following companies also work on making CCS plants:

• Climeworks
• Skytree
• Global Thermostat
• Carbon Engineering

Perhaps mention somewhere in the article KVDP (talk) 08:06, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

    I also agree, perhaps it can be put into the CSS Projects topic? Skyeyu (talk) 21:49, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

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Capture citation

In the third paragraph

"Flue gas from the combustion of coal in oxygen has a large concentration of CO2, about 10-15% CO2 whereas natural gas power plant flue gas is about 5–10% CO2.[12] Therefore, it is more energy and cost efficient to capture CO2 from coal-fired power plants. Impurities in CO2 streams, like sulfurs and water, could have a significant effect on their phase behaviour and could pose a significant threat of increased corrosion of pipeline and well materials.[10]"

I think that the [10] is confusing as to whether it refers back to citation [10] in the previous paragraph or it is a new citation just numbered incorrectly. Skyeyu (talk) 21:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

@Skyeyu The [10] is not related to any citation, it's a piece of text probably from the original source, so I deleted it. Thanks for noticing and welcome to Wikipedia! Dougmcdonell (talk) 08:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Geological storage

In the first sentence

"Also known as geo-sequestration, this method involves injecting carbon dioxide, generally in supercritical form, directly into underground geological formations."

I think that geo-equestrian should have a link to it in case anyone wanting to read more about it can easily access it. Skyeyu (talk) 21:29, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

We don't seem to have a specific article on geo-sequestration. The section above has a prominent link to Carbon sequestration where the topic is covered. --Salix alba (talk): 05:30, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

IFSP methods

"Technologies like CCS result in uncertainties. Interval fuzzy stochastic programming(IFSP) is used to deal with the multiple uncertainties that may arise in the research of CCS technology.Currently an IFSP for CCS is used in planning CCS in Bayingolin. The results reveal that CCs technology can help lower carbon dioxide emissions in a long term scale."

I found this article that might be useful that relates IFSP to carbon capture and storage but I do not know where to place this information.Skyeyu (talk) 22:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

I put this section in with CCS Projects in China, feel free to change it if it should not belong thereSkyeyu (talk) 22:18, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

References

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