Talk:Cankar Centre

Requested move 1 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: This move request was made because the organization (as User:Cankarjevdom) made a request that User:L293D move the page. I understand that it is good to be respectful of the wishes of outside people and organizations when those wishes don't conflict with our guidelines and policies. However, given the conflict of interest involved with the single-purpose account User:Cankarjevdom and the fact that they actively solicited the move request, it would be inappropriate to consider the "support" of User:Cankarjevdom in the usual way. I have advised the user about our guidelines on conflicts of interest and pointed them to the username policy. Aside from User:Cankarjevdom, I do not see a strong impulse to change the name of the article among the Wikipedia editors here. The issue of the "brand name" of the organization was raised, but we do not necessarily use official names: Wikipedia:Official names#Valid use of official names. Further, Wikipedia is a work in progress and we can always revisit this issue if and when usage in reliable secondary sources has more clearly shifted. Thus I am closing this request as no consensus, with no prejudice against a new request if there is evidence that a new title would better meet WP:CRITERIA. I will also add the Cankarjev dom name to the article lede, but that's not mandated by this close, so feel free to edit again as necessary. Dekimasuよ! 01:48, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

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Cankar Centre → Cankarjev dom – Cankarjev dom appears to be the more common name, as seen on their official website. Besides, a google search for Cankarjev dom yields twice more results than Cankar Centre. L293D (☎ • ✎) 15:35, 1 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 03:28, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose - The move is problematic for two reasons. The first is that the more English name Cankar Centre (or Cankar Hall) is well attested in reliable published sources (including English sources published in Slovenia). The second problem is that, if Cankarjev dom is viewed as an English name, then the name-final element dom should be capitalized, as is universal practice for English proper noun phrases. Doremo (talk) 15:43, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support Cankar centre is used in published sources because the name appeared on Wikipedia, which is of course a reference for many. Because Cankarjev dom is a brand name, there can be an exception not to capitalize 'dom'. The problem occurs with social media, which automatically connect English wiki with the location of the venue, and we appear as Cankar centre. References for obtaining the same name in different languages: Concertgebouw, Carnegie Hall, Barbican Centre, Melkweg ˇCankarjevdom (talk) 16:02, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The WP page was created in 2008, but the English name Cankar Centre (or Cankar Hall) appears in reliable sources published well before 2008. Doremo (talk) 16:04, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Google search with the time frame Jan 1 1990 to Jan 1 2007 does not show entries containing the phrase Cankar Centre. Could you please provide references? Cankar Centre is confusing for visitors from other countries, who are trying to learn more about the venue they will visit. We hope to expand the English wiki page with more information about Cankarjev dom, as info provided now is inadequate. Cankarjevdom (talk) 09:00, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Some pre-2008 references are already cited in the text; the oldest published English names at Google Books are Cankar Center (1986), Cankar Centre (1982), and Cankar Hall (1974). Doremo (talk) 14:03, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support move since it is a brand name. The full name in English is The Cankarjev dom cultural and congress centre. [1]--Tone 09:36, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Narodna galerija and Mednarodni grafični likovni center could also be viewed as brands, but it wouldn't make them user-friendly titles for English WP users. This also raises the important question of whether this article is about the building or is about the institution that the building houses. The notion of a brand might apply to the institution (regardless of where it is located), but applying it to the physical structure is dubious. Doremo (talk) 14:10, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

National gallery is a common name for all national galleries in different countries. This applys also to national theatre, museums of modern art ... Suomen Kansallisgalleria National gallery, Magyar Nemzeti GalériaNational gallery, Narodna galerija Slovenije National gallery. Cankarjev dom is a brand (and an institution) similar to Barbican. The name of the building and of the institution is Cankarjev dom. The building as an important cultural monument and the institution as the biggest producer of culture in Slovenia. Cankarjevdom (talk) 14:35, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment - It seems that two entities have been confused here. One is a brick-and-mortar structure that has been known as the Cankar Center (or Cankar Hall) in English for over four decades. The other is a company/institute (Slovene: javni zavod) called Cankarjev dom, kulturni in kongresni center that is housed in the Cankar Center. The most appropriate solution would not be to rename this article (thus perpetuating the confusion), but to create a second article for the company/institute called Cankarjev dom, kulturni in kongresni center (or: Javni zavod Cankarjev dom, kulturni in kongresni center) and to move any information about the business entity from the current building article to the new article about the company/institute, which has a corporate identity. Doremo (talk) 15:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Could you please provide references for the statement, that Cankar Centre is a commonly used name in international community? Cankarjevdom (talk) 13:06, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Google it. [2][3][4] Doremo (talk) 14:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the links. Unfortunately the use of Cankar Centre is wrong. Hopefully the proofreaders of recent publications did not use Wikipedia article as a reference. Cankarjevdom (talk) 14:58, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Looking at those links, it seems that Cankar Hall is a more common use than Cankar Center/Centre. However, this show only that the term is used in English, but it is not a proof that the majority of English sources use it. In some of the links, they actually use Cankarjev dom (Cankar Hall) formulation, which prefers the brand name. --Tone 17:25, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment The building exists because the idea to have a central cultural institution was initiated. The cultural committee gathered to celebrate 100 yeas anniversary of Ivan Cankar's birth proposed a central cultural institution Kulturni dom Ivana Cankarja. The parliament conformed the start of the project in 1977. The most convenient location was Trg republike. The institution exsited before the building. Kulturni dom Ivana Cankarja was later (in the beginning of 1980) renamed as Cankarjev dom. Cankar Centre is not a valid English name the translation should be Cankar's home, but this is in opposition with the law. Sklep o ustanovitvi javnega zavoda Cankarjev dom, kulturni in kongresni center. Cankar Centre in Slovenian translates to Cankarjev center which is absolutely incorrect. Cankarjevdom (talk) 13:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

English is not subject to Slovenian law. You can also familiarize yourself with the meaning of the Slovenian word dom here (def. 2) and English center here (def. 3) Doremo (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

So, what do you suggest? Cankarjev dom would like to update the ENG Wikipedia page, but again, not under Cankar Centre, because CD does not use this name. If we create a new English Wikipedia page Cankarjev dom, how does the page connect to social media and for example Google Maps? The problem we encounter is that all social media and some web pages connect automatically to Wikipedia (Cankar Centre). Cankarjevdom (talk) 14:58, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

This username is an issue in either event, but the organization should not be editing its own page to start out with. Please review WP:COIEDIT for more information on editing with conflicts of interest. Dekimasuよ! 06:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

English Wikipedia is based on English usage. I don't see a problem with the current situation; the Slovenian name Cankarjev dom is clear in the lede. There is currently a redirect from Cankarjev dom, so anything linked to that will go to Cankar Centre without any problem. If you're uncomfortable with English, you're welcome to contribute to the page Cankarjev dom on Slovenian Wikipedia. Doremo (talk) 15:41, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

This is actually the problem: the automatic connection to Cankar Centre, which is, I must insist, wrong. How can we expand the debate to more participants? As I can see, in this thread there are 3 pro and 1 contra. Cankarjevdom (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Your reasoning seems to fall under Wikipedia:I just don't like it. (Incidentally, if your goal is to provide clear and accessible information to English speakers, it is puzzling why you would want to move the article from a name that is transparent and well-formed in English to one that is non-transparent and poorly formed in English.) However, I will request additional comment at the WikiProject Slovenia page. Doremo (talk) 16:34, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

We received negative feedback from visitors from abroad. When searching for Cankarjev dom via social media or tagging the location of Cankarjev dom on social media, the visitors were confused. We also got requests of clarification from our business partners, who are confused when publishing the name of the venue of their event. That is why we started to look at our digital presence. Thank you for your help. Let the community speak. :) Cankarjevdom (talk) 16:46, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

They're probably confused because they wonder who "Mr. Cankarjev" was and whether he was somehow related to Ivan Cankar. Doremo (talk) 17:08, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: While searching on Google for only hits until Nov 7, 2008 (since this article was created on Nov 8, 2008, I found 0 hits for "Cankar Centre", 7 hits for "Cankar Hall", and 488 hits for "Cankarjev dom", even when removing non-English results. When searching up to the present day, the situation was very much reversed. I can't tell if that's because of a general lack of coverage in English sources pre-2008 or not, but I thought I would put that out there.--Aervanath (talk) 17:00, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Using those parameters, the oldest hit appears to be a 2000 one from the Cankar Center itself referring to the "Ivan Cankar Cultural Centre" (for what it's worth). Doremo (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

• So, what to do here? As a summary, it seems that all three variants appear in English-language sources. Among pre-wiki article (suspecting that this article generated several English source names), Cankarjev dom was strongly predominant. In addition, it is a brand name. To me, it seems a stong rationale enough to move, but I was involved in the discussion so I'll ask someone else to decide. --Tone 17:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

It should be noted that all three English name variants (Cankar Hall/Center/Centre) appeared in multiple published English sources in pre-wiki times ([5][6][7]), and so the article did not generate any of these English names (although it may have passively reinforced their use). If the article is moved to a Slovenian name (which is un-English in both morphology and capitalization), then we are still left with the problem of how to nonetheless incorporate the well-attested English name in the article (with the resulting awkwardness of English WP not titling the article under an available English name). Doremo (talk) 17:18, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.