Talk:Buna (Adriatic Sea)/Archive 1

Archive 1

The title should be Buna/Bojana

There is no reason to give the river only its Serbian name. To be fair, it should even been described under the heading Buna/Bojana, since its upper half is entirely in Albania, and afterwards it forms the border between Montenegro and Albania. Kaewa Koyangi 01:05, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Name

I agree with you. That's why I left Bojana/Buna dual form in the text (if you read the article at all). I was talking about Skadar/Shkodra, Ulcinj/Ulqin, etc. Because guys cleaning the articles will remove dual forms for subjects with links and separate articles anyway. Before posting the article I checked other Wikipedias, only two had the river (German and Hungarian) and both under the name of Bojana, so I named it that way too. PajaBG 01:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If you insist on giving this river a single name it should be Albanian

In the case of the Buna/Bojana, the idea of giving it a single name is not the best option, for two reasons :

• The purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide accurate information, not deprive its readers of relevant knowledge because it regards them as incapable of understanding the obvious purpose of a double title.
• It should be admitted, in such cases where two names are equally in use, no clear-cut criterion is available, and anything else will cause resentment, that both should be used. Balkan specialists who want to avoid partiality and geographers with an understanding of local politics tend to choose such a solution. Why not follow their example?

Yet, acording to the criteria below, if a single name is nevertheless chosen, it should be Albanian.

Quoting from Wikipedia:WikiProject Rivers:
Rivers with multiple names
Some rivers have names with multiple spellings which vary with the different countries the rivers pass through. (An example would be the Cunene River in Angola, which is known as the Kunene River in Namibia. Occasionally, a river can have several genuinely distinct names. For example, the Cuando River not only has the variant spelling Kwando, it's also called the Linyanti and the Chobe. The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:

• If the river is particularly famous under one name, then choose that name.(Not the case.)
• If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
• If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest. (Everything else is definitely not equal.)

(ending quote)

If you consider only the Buna/Бојана-Bojana which flows from the Lake of Shkodra to the Adriatic, it would then be a little less than 3/4 Albanian, since its upper half is in Albania, its lower half forms the border between Albania and Montenegro, while the greater part of the delta is in Montenegro.

But in fact the Buna/Bojana is the lowest section of the Drin, which provides nine tenths of its flow, the longest part of which is also in Albania.
The Drin would then follow the Cuando-Kwando-Linyanti-Chobe pattern by:

• first being called the Black Drin (from Lake Ohrid in Macedonia to Kukës in Albania) and the White Drin (from Peja/Пећ-Peć in Western Kosovo to Kukës in Albania),
• then the Drin from from Kukës to Shkodra in Albania),
• and then Buna/Бојана-Bojana, from Shkodra to the Adriatic.

(A smaller section of the Drin also flows from Vau i Dejës to Lezha on the Adriatic) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaewa Koyangi (talk • contribs) 04:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Why dual names for cities?

If one can understand why Bojana/Buna has the dual name, I certainly cannot understand why this applies for Shkodër and Ulcinj? Shkodër is entirely in Albania, and Ulcinj is in Montenegro...and this is English Wikipedia?

Also, Lake Skadar is the chosen and accepted name for the lake, both in common speach outside Albania, and on Wikipedia. I'm not sure that dual name is necessary in the case of the lake... Nije bitno... 20:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I got rid of most of the dual names except for the dual formulation used for the river. Serbian names are used for cities in Montenegro and Albanian namaes for places in Albania. I also got rid of the double name for Lake Skadar as this is the lake's only name in English.--84.153.1.152 08:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

More discussion

As this page was inappropriately copy-pasted to Buna/Bojana, when it later got reverted to its original title, the ongoing talk page remained as Talk:Buna/Bojana River so it should be checked too. PajaBG 12:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Changed the picture to the new one. Please DO NOT REMOVE PIC ON TOP

Removed the prior pic as it was similar more to a pond than to a river. please do not change this one as I think it's really pretty and representative of the river. Replace only if you see a better one. sulmues--Sulmues 22:20, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move page as suggested. - GTBacchus^(talk) 19:49, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

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Bojana (river) → Buna (river) – Relisted for further input. Jafeluv (talk) 11:03, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

• Buna 118.000.000
• Bojana 7.550.000
• Buna (books) 324.000
• Bojana (books) 42.600

I think for this reason, it should be moved to Buna (river) Vinie007 20:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

There seem to be almost twice as many results for Buna in comparison to Bojana, but we'll have to check the English language results. The name Buna is a common Roman era rivername of the former Illyrian territories(Buna River unlike the Slavic Bojana, but the name should be decided based on common English usage.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Buna + river: 15.900
• Bojana + river: 2.280

Of course the Buna result includes the lesser known Buna river of Bosnia, but even in the very unlikely case of half of the results being related to that Buna there would still be about 5.5k more results for Buna.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:27, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

• Move As it is quite clear that the form Buna is the most commonly used one.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
• Keep As google hits are misused and wrongly presented, as nor Buna nor Bojana represent real numbers of hits regarding rivers but ALL related word, in all wordy languages. See "WP:GNUM" amd "WP:GOOGLETEST" for some info how to use Google hits test, that is not argument for move anyway. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Just for info:

793 hits on Bojana river

283 hits on Buna river (+ Buna river of Bosnia)

Word Buna, as we may see even on wiki have numerous meanings, while Bojana is by far mostly personal name. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:05, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Both yours and Vinie's search are wrong i.e not all sources use the exact phrase "Buna river" or "Bojana river" etc. and not all results that contain the words "Buna"/"Bojana" are related to those rivers(Bojana is also a Slavic personal name). Descriptive searches are much more indicative and representative of the English usage.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:55, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

• Bonjana River 2.260 (Books)
• Buna River 15.700 (Books)

Again, Buna River is much more used --Vinie007 14:53, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

You must use " sign, and - for other term, as without it, it is not correct. -WhiteWriter ^speaks 15:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

You are making your own search rules, see:

• Buna + river: 15.900
• Bojana + river: 2.280

--Vinie007 15:18, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Buna is disambiguation, there are multiple terms named Buna. Tribe, village, river in Bosnia, etc, etc... Also, i foreign languages buna means uprising, so that is also included. So, without -, your search use all terms in all searches... You didn't presented any relevant reference for rename, except false Google hits number. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 10:31, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Buna (river) is not a disambig, please read good my proposal --Vinie007 11:39, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment in any case, a redirect should be created at Buna (river) while we're waiting. 184.144.166.87 (talk) 06:12, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Fixed your proposal now we wait if a admin agree with moving it to Buna (river) --Vinie007 11:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

• Keep , per WhiteWriter. FkpCascais (talk) 22:11, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
• Keep, per WR's comments on Google search results. Vladimir (talk) 15:32, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Shkodra

The name of the city 'Shkodra' should be left that way, rather than 'Skadar'. It is, after all, an Albanian city, so should be spelt 'Shkodra'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeographDF (talk • contribs) 18:15, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Also, before somone replies to me saying 'Skadar is the English word', I believe 'Shkodra' is not difficult at all to read. I am British and i speak English - Shkodra is easy to read. Shkodër is more difficult to read in English, which is why it is not used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeographDF (talk • contribs) 18:19, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The English common name of the lake is Skadar lake.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:41, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Redirection from Buna was mistake

There is 9 kilometers long river Buna, on Wikipedia Buna (Neretva). Wikipedia redirection from Buna should go to this river. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megaribi (talk • contribs) 07:53, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Changing into Buna (Adriatic Sea)

The name of the article should be changed, it lies entirely in the Albanian territory and the name is BUNA not Bojana; Buna is the most common name of the river! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iaof2017 (talk • contribs) 13:16, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

What is the point of complicating a name of a river?

I find the content on this page very controversial, therefore I have to further question a few simple facts. What is right or wrong?

1. Why does there have to be a right or wrong way? Albanians can call the river as described, by using the name known to their language, Buna. The Montenegrians and Serbs, and therefore rest of the slavic folks, can use the name Bojana. Frankly, I'm born in Bosnia where the name of the river Bojana has been known to me ever since. In addition, Bojana is a common Slavic first name; I wonder whether the first name has been derived from the river.
2. Does the name of the river denominate it's national ownership and therefore the expansion of countrie's borders? If this is true then common name can be infinately argued until finaly there is only the villain and the victim. Should the whole river be in Albania or should the whole river be in Montenegro?
3. Like the river, shouldn't the languages flow into each other. The river can be called Buna in Albania or the Albanian part and Bojana in Montenegro or the part that flowing through Montenegro.
Take Danube, Donau, Dunav for example, it's name is changing from country to country.
4. Why should the single name be Albanian? If the single name needs to be choosen than it shouldn't be either or. Why not find a new name, a unifying name between the two languages. That way we make history not murder.
5. Question of beauty and ego? Since my mother language is slavic and I speak various Balkan dialects I have to be honest and say that the name Bojana is more beautiful of a word than Buna. Buna in slavic means a riot. I'm sorry, but I don't know what Buna means in Albanian. Therefore, we come to the question of ego. Our (human) psychology is to a great part built on how we see what surrounds us. The negative side of ego can disturb our doing of the right thing and changes it to do what is better for me thing. In this discussion, we have to be able to strip away our heritage and find what is true for that river. What does the river tell us? (Regards, Dan :-) ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.88 (talk • contribs) 23:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the name 'Buena' was used during the Roman invasion of Balkans. 'Bunar' means shadoof in Gheg alban language.

Both names must be used. Piro ilir (talk) 21:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 22 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:58, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

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Bojana (river) → Buna (river) – Buna is the more common name in bibliography. Results from mention of the two names on google scholar: - Buna: 22,500 (- 672, the maximum number of results which might refer to Buna, Neretva) : 21,828 - Bojana: 5,300 N.Hoxha (talk) 22:38, 22 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. --IWI (talk) 14:24, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support. The Google Scholar searches above clearly demonstrate that the name "Buna" is overwhelmingly more used in bibliography. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Support per the useful analysis of the nominator. Lorik17 (talk) 22:30, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose: 1. Google appears to slighly favor Bojana: Bojana 127 [[1]], Buna: 113 [2]].
  2. There should be consistency with Bojana island, located in the mouth of the river in the part of Montenegro.Alexikoua (talk) 15:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It's not justified to have a search that requires the strings "Montenegro" and "Albania" to both be there, as your search does (unlike N. Hoxha's, which uses the disjunction OR) -- a source need not mention both political entities to discuss the ecological entity. We are interested in the eihter-or, you only got the "exclusive or" set.--Calthinus (talk) 18:23, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

• Strong support per the results from google scholar which are an indicator of use in bibliography. Raw results of random google searches should never be invoked in any discussion. Google search doesn't index google scholar papers, so very few results have actually been indexed.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Alexikoua. Renaming to "Buna" has an additional disadvantage that it clashes with Buna (Neretva), short but renowned river in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Searches provided by the nominator also display a number of false positives (unrelated "Buna"s are mentioned in "The country between the Juba river and Lake Rudolf"; "Monitoring selected indicators of ecological change in the Elbe River", "Effect of climate change on annual streamflow of Bakırçay River" etc, simply by virtue of being a relatively common word across the globe), and, as we know, figures of "21,828" and "5,300" estimated by Google are of very low reliability. No such user (talk) 09:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

  If you search simply just for "Buna river" [3] vs. "Bojana river" [4] you will get 547 vs. 451 results, which is much closer to reality. If you subtract some 5% hits for Buna of Herzegovina in the former, you will see that they are in approximately the same circulation. No such user (talk) 09:32, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

"Buna river"/"Bojana river" is a bad search string because it excludes all results that simply refer the river by its name without using the term "river" immediately after the name. N.Hoxha (talk) 09:58, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Buna (river) should probably be pointed to the DAB Buna then. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:06, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Exactly Nsu. The claim that google results favour a move to Buna is extremely weak, not to mention serious consistency issues (Bojana island etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 20:03, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Google results do favor Buna even in the very limiting "Buna/Bojana river" search. Are you suggesting that wikipedia should use the name with the fewer results? Even in NSU's search, Buna has a lead over Bojana. Google scholar which utilizes a bigger database than gbooks heavily favors Buna. There is no "Bojana island", it's just a small formation in the river delta on the Montenegrin side of the border. Its name doesn't affect the name of the river. N.Hoxha (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Strong Support - per nominator. Plus a comparison on google ngram [5] of the forms Buna river and Bojana river shows Buna dominating in the 2nd decade of the 21st century.Resnjari (talk) 10:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose That is simply not true. It's only "more common" when you choose a specific time frame. Bojana is the traditional name which is well established in scientific works and general public. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - I'm shocked by the lack of collegiality. Тhe trend of pressure on Balkan topics is very worrying. We have already had a rush of nationalist WP:POVPUSH, which resulted in polarization among the editors, tensions and difficulties in defining consensus. Again, the same group of editors reopens new polls over and over again, in which they support each other with identical arguments. This is not in favor of a polite, well-argued and reasonable discussion with “calm heads”. The editors should focus on improving the Wikipedia while maintaining a pleasant editing environment by behaving politely, calmly and reasonably. (WP:CIVIL) In this case, Bojana is the most precise and recognizable name (WP:COMMONNAME). The search results are apparently affected by Buna (Neretva) and Buna Bay. Also, Ada Bojana is recognizable and the name of the island is in consistency with the name of the river.--WEBDuB (talk) 17:44, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support: as shown above, Google Scholar results indicate that Buna is the English WP:COMMONNAME of this river. – Βατο (talk) 17:20, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per No such user. The OP's search is invalidated by a large number of false positives. The two names appear about equally common, so no reason to move. Khirurg (talk) 23:05, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support Resnjari's analysis is convincing enough. We should note also that Bojana is a common name of Slavic origin (feminine of Bojan) and is especially common in, you guessed it, Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia -- as a result, N.Hoxha's results for Bojana actually include sources like this one, which come up because the name of an author is Bojana [[6]]. In fact, even the third result of [NH's original search] for Bojana shows this sort of inflation -- it is a study about pollution in the Danube river written by Bojana Stanic [[7]]. The fourth result, about hantaviruses is also present solely because an author's name is Bojana Bojovic too [[8]]. So it is likely taht the difference is even sharper than we thought. --Calthinus (talk) 18:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus:, just as a sidenote, around a third of this river is wholly in Albania and the other two thirds -the east bank- is in Albania. Along the whole stretch of the river, within Albania and the western bank in Montenegro (in Ulcinj Municipality), on all sides are Albanian speaking villages, some Catholic, some Muslim, but Albanian. Locals in the area know it by the name of Buna/Bunë, not Bojana.Resnjari (talk) 01:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose As has been pointed out by a few users, Google results are unreliable and show false positives (from both sides). If we assume then that usages of the two terms in reality are very close, then I don't think a name change is warranted. Content from reliable English sources published within the last few years, such as NASA, National Geographic, Reuters, Balkan Insight and Euronews all use the term Bojana river. The official tourism website in English of the river's own municipality still uses it. The most recent academic book published by Springer Nature in 2020 on the rivers of Montenegro does too. --Griboski (talk) 13:34, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

On municipality usage, the local Montenegrin municipality to which you refer to is Ulcinj, which is overwhelmingly populated by Albanians. Being in Montenegro, the official working language of the whole country is a Slavic language, so it will give precedence to Slavic forms if the page is not in Albanian. The Albanian language is recognised in Montenegro and the form Buna is given on its Albanian version of the Ulcinj website [9]. Nonetheless, a third of the river is wholly in Albania and two thirds of the remaining stretch of the eastern bank of the river is in Albania. All of Buna flowing in Albania belongs to Shkoder Municipality and the form Buna is used [10], not Bojana.Resnjari (talk) 01:56, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Support when you do the cleanup of false searches for both terms, Buna is a visibly more prevalent term than Bojana. It's not surprising after all, because most people who live in the area on both sides of the border are Albanians, so naturally anyone who writes about the river region tends to use the Albanian name. In any case, the article needs to be improved. There is much that can be added to it. After all, the content is way more important than what name we choose for the article to have. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:10, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The name should be Buna

The river flow starts and ends within the Albanian territory. The name Bojana is slavic is should normally be in the wikipedia pages in the slavic languages where the river is called so. Internationally it should be Buna. Request to move it to Buna (Albania) as there is another river named so in Bosnia. Andi Shkambi (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2023 (UTC)