Talk:Bulb

Bulblet

@Peter coxhead: Regarding this edit, bulblet redirects to the bulbil section, so I guess this is the main place where bulblet is defined. My impression is that bulblet encompasses things that are actually tubers, even in the Flora of North America (or my book on the Fumarioideae), where Dicentra cucullaria and Dicentra canadensis are described as having bulblets. I think they are miniature tubers; I can't remember if it's only from personal observation of the rootstock or if I also read it somewhere. (And there isn't a word for miniature tuber: etymologically, tubercule is from the diminutive of tuber in Latin, but it doesn't mean "miniature tuber".) So it would seem that bulblet is broader than bulb: whereas it would be incorrect to call a large tuber a bulb, a small one is apparently called a bulblet. If so, perhaps bulblet needs its own article. — Eru·tuon 06:31, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon: actually, "bulb" is the same, which is why there's this article, really "Bulb (botany)", as well as "Ornamental bulbous plant"; see in particular Ornamental bulbous plant#Terminology. (It's substantially the same situation as Berry (botany) and Berry.) So when gardeners and others call small tubers "bulblets", it's the same as commercial suppliers selling "crocus bulbs" (see this search), when actually they are corms, or "dahlia bulbs" (see this search), when actually they are root tubers.

So, "bulblet" isn't broader than "bulb", and I think the broader sense of "bulblet" like the broader sense of "bulb" belongs at Ornamental bulbous plant, with a clearer pointer from this article that 'bulb related terms' may refer to botanical bulbs or to the broader popular sense. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:40, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: I guess I wasn't making my point clear. I'm aware that bulb is used loosely in colloquial language, but in technical botanical language, as in the Flora of North America and the Fumarioideae book that I have, it is distinguished from corm and tuber, if the writers have done their research properly. Bulblet, on the other hand, seems to be used for miniature tubers along with miniature bulbs (in the narrow sense) even in technical botanical language, if I'm right that Dicentra cucullaria and canadensis have tiny tubers. — Eru·tuon 16:23, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon: ah, ok. The problem is, as I regularly find with botanical terminology as actually used by botanists, that the definition is not entirely clear. The FNA categorical glossary (start here) says "bulblet = bulbil: A small bulb-like structure produced from a sterile or fertile plant structure other than a bulb, usually within a leaf axil, leaf sinus, or inflorescence, serving as a vegetative propagule." So with this definition, a small offshoot bulb from a parent bulb can't be a "bulblet" although I can easily find uses in which it is, e.g. The Kew Plant Glossary says "bulblet, small bulb or bulb-like structure". But the FNA glossary definition doesn't very well correspond to the FNA entry for the genus Dicentra, which says "from taproots, bulblets, tubers, or rhizomes", but these bulblets are underground, not axillary. ("Bulbil" does seem to be used by most sources in the sense of the FNA glossary definition; e.g. The Kew Plant Glossary has "bulbil, a small, usually axillary bulb".)

So an accurate statement appears to be something like "The term bulblet is used in different senses, both botanically and more generally. It can mean a small bulb, where bulb is either a botanical bulb or the more general sense of the term. It can be a synonym for bulbil. It can mean a bulb-like structure that is not actually a bulb in the botanical sense, such as a small tuber."

I'm not sure where this leaves us! Peter coxhead (talk) 17:06, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Well, I think the FNA definition of bulblet is actually consistent with Dicentra cucullaria's miniature tubers, if read in a certain way. The tubers can be called bulb-like because, like bulbs, they are storage organs. The rootstock that they are attached to is a sterile plant structure and is not a bulb. (See here for some photos, though not of the base of the bulblets.) The leaf axil, leaf sinus, or inflorescence part is optional. And they do serve as propagules: if they are broken off from the rootstock, they usually sprout leaves and form a new cluster of bulblets over time.

Bulb-like could be more or less specific: only describing something that is actually a bulb structurally, but miniature; or that and other kinds of miniature storage organ, like the miniature tubers of Dicentra cucullaria, or perhaps corms, though for that there's the word cormlet; or one or both of those as well as propagules that look similar to bulbs but I guess are not technically bulbs (like the bulblets of a bulblet fern). The last and broadest definition might be required to encompass the ways the word is actually used in the FNA.

(By the way, thanks for the link to the glossary. I've been wanting some kind of botanical glossary for the technical terms in the FNA, and I couldn't find it on the website.) — Eru·tuon 20:05, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon: however, not all the contributors to the FNA follow the glossary, unfortunately. (Somewhere there's a thread relating to fruit classification, particularly "drupe" and "drupelet", which related to such inconsistencies in the FNA and other sources.) Peter coxhead (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

The lede is sorely in need of revision

My most recent edit was aimed only at the semantics involving the need to specify that a bulb relates to a plant. However, characterizing a bulb as a plant "stem with fleshy leavesor leaf bases", as attributed to A.D. Bell, seems equivocal. Both bulbs and leaves are attached to stems, but I don't think it's fair to characterize a bulb as a stem per se. I.e., bulbs and stems have entirely different functions. I'd say it's better to characterize a bulb as "a somewhat rounded organ or cluster of organs as a food supply attached to a stem or root of certain plants." That's the definition I use in my original research; sorry I don't have an independent cite for this article. Kent Dominic·(talk) 16:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Miscellaneous edits needed

The article neglects to point out the following:

• Only aboveground bulbs have leaves while underground bulbs technically have either scales or skins (despite how some sources nonetheless call them leaves)
• Bulbs can be distinguished from fruits since fruits have seeds but bulbs don't
• Some underwater plants (like some species of Nymphaea, Aponogeton, and Najas) have rhizomes that might be considered bulbs

Kent Dominic·(talk) 16:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)