Talk:Budae-jjigae/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 19:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments

I'll have a go at this one, an interesting article and a curious dish. Oddly reminiscent of the hybrid character of England's unofficial national dish, Chicken tikka masala ... Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:24, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, will get on the comments :) toobigtokale (talk) 20:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Minor issues:

• Please delete the word "also" wherever it occurs. It doesn't do anything useful.

• Hmm.. I pruned a bunch of the "also"s but the ones I've left I've hesitated on. I imply "in addition to" in these uses, which is needed for the ideas I'm expressing. E.g. The Busan variant of the dish also led to the development of dwaeji-gukbap, a pork-based rice dish. The Busan variant led to both budae-jjigae and dwaeji-gukbap in parallel, if I deleted "also" I read that as possibly implying it only led to dwaeji-gukbap, likely as a stepping stone to budae jjigae (as earlier in the para i imply dwaeji is a predecessor to budae). "Also" concisely eliminates that possibility toobigtokale (talk) 03:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Name:

• "means a soup thicker than guk (soup)" --- perhaps "has a thicker consistency than guk (soup)".

• Hmmm it'd become Jjigae (찌개) has a thicker consistency than guk (soup). Bit hesitant on this one; I'd rather the reader is told upfront what it generally is and then adjust the idea, rather than have them derive it relative to something else. I want to hear your thoughts though toobigtokale (talk) 02:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

A soup thicker than soup makes no sense. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

done toobigtokale (talk) 09:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Description:

• Wikilink kimchi, and perhaps also gloss it as "fermented vegetables" or some such.

• done toobigtokale (talk) 02:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Perhaps explain "instant noodle powder" for the uninitiated reader: is this as plain as it sounds, like rice flour, or is it a spicy and salty additive?

• Same with the other ramen gloss, I'd argue we can assume almost all readers on the article will know what it is toobigtokale (talk) 02:50, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

No, there are any number of readers who've never geard if the stuff, that's what Wikipedia is for. If you think everyone knows, why are you writing? Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:24, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

?? I'm writing on a more developed niche topic using concepts that are more familiar to a lot of people. If anything I should explain what baked beans are too; I'm very confident more people in the world have had instant ramen than baked beans.

I'll explain it anyway though toobigtokale (talk) 09:53, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Maybe gloss gochujang, mandu, minari as "red chili paste", "dumplings", "water celery", or similar.

• done toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

"Some opt to exclude ... also exist." --- Should this not be moved to "Variants"?

• done toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Preparation:

• This is currently written as instructions to the reader, contrary to Wikipedia's NOTHOWTO rules. Please reword to be descriptive not prescriptive, e.g. you might begin "The dish is based on a stock, which can be either vegan or ..." and go on in the same style.

• Done, although not 100% confident in how I did toobigtokale (talk) 10:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "the dish is normally ordered with base ingredients" => "the dish is normally served only with base ingredients"

• It's rare to not add things I think; how's this: In restaurants, the dish comes with a set of base ingredients and more ingredients can be added for additional charge toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Suggest: ... base ingredients; more can be ... Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

done toobigtokale (talk) 09:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Variants:

• "in preprepared kits." => "in kits."

• done toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "ramen noodles are not added". They haven't been mentioned until now, so we didn't know they were added in any case. Maybe mention and wikilink them in "Description"? Perhaps also gloss them as "wheat noodles", not just "noodles".

• I'd argue no need to gloss; instant ramen is eaten or known of very widely (especially by people who have access to the internet and wikipedia). I think cultures that are unfamiliar with instant ramen would need many western food names glossed too toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Minimum is wikilink. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Done toobigtokale (talk) 09:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• What is special about "Carter-tang"?

• I'm struggling to find even unreliable sources that describe it, may not find an answer toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

If there aren't reliable sources then remove it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:30, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Hmm... I mean we know it exists, there just isn't a detailed description of it. It's mentioned in virtually every article about Budae-jjigae, along with Johnson-tang. I'll remove it anyway, but people who are familiar with budae-jjigae in Korea will notice it's missing. toobigtokale (talk) 10:01, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Wikilink napa cabbage.

• First mention should be linked (after the johnson bit) toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Kkulkkuri-juk:

• "more mild" => "milder"

• done toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Is "Jeong Jung-yun" the same guy as "Jeon Jung-yun" already introduced and redlinked, and then referred to simply as "Jeong"?

• Typo fixed toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Should be Jeong only then. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:28, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

? There's only "Jeon"; there's a "Jeong" in the cultural legacy section but with a different given name, is this who you're referring to? toobigtokale (talk) 10:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, I assume you have this correct now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:02, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Development of budae-jjigae:

• Who is Yang Minho? Maybe gloss as "the scholar Yang Minho" or "the war historian" or some such.

• sociolinguist, but maybe too technical term for what it's worth, and his work seems to squarely lean towards sociology toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Do say so, and wikilink. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

done toobigtokale (talk) 09:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Recent history:

• "Uijeongbu Budae-jjigae Street [ko]" --- it seems surprising to Western ears to hear the name of the city as part of the street name (we just say "Wall Street" or "Oxford Street"...). Consider using the "|lt=Budae-jiigae Street" parameter to suppress the repetition of the city name in the inter-language link.

• It's a bit rare in Korea too 😅 I'm a bit on the fence on this one; it's the official name of the street and I don't have any quick ideas on how to explain it to the reader concisely otherwise. toobigtokale (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Cultural legacy:

• Who is Grace M. Cho?

• Wrote in "anthropologist" toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• The discussion of Uijeongbu city's dish and street overlaps with the discussion in "Recent history". Could we merge the two instances? I'd suggest we do that here in "Cultural legacy".

• Merged into cultural toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• Who is Christina Klein?

• "researcher of Korean cinema" (initially did korean cinema researcher, but realized it could imply her nationality was korean) toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• "One chef contended ... She pointed out ..." --- If we're going to say it's a She, we'd best give her a name, i.e. "The chef Park Chan-il contended ... She ..."

• Implemented toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

See also:

• not sure all these items are really needed here. Why "Fusion cuisine"? Why "Food and drink prohibitions"? Why "han (cultural)"? As for the Economy and List of US Army installations... surely those should either be linked in the main text or removed.

• Pruned; Han I think is somewhat relevant because the emotions described in the article are all a part of Han. The after effects of the events of the 20th century. toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Notes:

• What is the point of Note 1? The variations are so minor I'd have thought we could just forget the differences really.

• I think this note can probably go; too precise toobigtokale (talk) 01:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• What is the point of Note 2?

• My understanding of this bit is that it's needed: MOS:FOREIGNQUOTE When editors themselves translate foreign text... toobigtokale (talk) 01:35, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

References:

• You use "Last, First" for authors, which is great ... but [50] "Service, Korean Culture and Information" is wrong, it's not Mr K.C.I. Service, is it...

• Fixed toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• I tried several spot-checks on the citations, and they were all appropriate.

Categories:

• "Culture of Gyeonggi Province" --- I see that Uijeongbu is in that province, but it's not stated anywhere in the article. Might be worth mentioning.

• I put it in lead, lmk if you think it's better in body instead toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Nothing should exist only in the lead, as it's only a summary. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:26, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

done toobigtokale (talk) 09:55, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Images

• I'm not convinced the Pro-democracy protests image is justified here, as it's at best tangential to the article, and not directly mentioned in the text.

• Removed toobigtokale (talk) 02:15, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

• The other images are appropriate for the article, and seem to be properly licensed on Commons.

Summary

Well, this is an interesting and well-cited article, and there's really very little wrong with it. I hope to see it at GA very soon. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:47, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.