Talk:Bronze Head from Ife

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Bronze Head from Ife. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131203022723/http://www.freunde-afrikanischer-kultur.de/vortraege-und-artikel-bei-vdfak/83-auf-den-truemmern-von-atlantis-leo-frobenius-zwischen-forschung-und-vision.html to http://www.freunde-afrikanischer-kultur.de/vortraege-und-artikel-bei-vdfak/83-auf-den-truemmern-von-atlantis-leo-frobenius-zwischen-forschung-und-vision.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 11:01, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Re Islamic culture at Ife

@Haldir Marchwarden: I explained my edits in the notes and asked you to engage in Talk instead of edit warring/reverting but you have continued to revert and not discuss. So I am starting a discussion here. Hopefully we can come to a resolution. Regarding your recent edits, the source does not seem to say that Muslim scholars or artisans were present at Ife, and the known direct contact with Muslims that did existed there was with the Sahel states (as interaction with them is mentioned in the source). The source mentions the trans-Saharan trade, which directly affected the Sahel states (like those of Mali, the Hausa, Kanem, etc. and not forest states like Ife, Igbo-Ukwu, etc., whose contact was with Sahelians rather than Arabs (as far as we know). The source does not say that Muslim scholars or artisans were specifically at Ife, but rather at West African cities (only explicitly mentioning the region or West Africa that exported gold to Europe, which was not Ife). The source vaguely mentions that Ife existed in the context of the trans-Saharan trade, which is certainly true in the sense that it belonged to a network of trade that included the African Sahel kingdoms, which as the source says, "in turn" had contact with traders from the Mediterranean world.

As the BBC source says: "Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad."

Adding material sating that there was Arab, Islamic, or Mediterranean contact at Ife (which is not explicit in the source) misleadingly gives the impression that Ife's art and culture was the result of Islamic or Mediterranean contact, which is not stated in the source and not in evidence. Mentioning "contact with the Islamic world is also somewhat misleading, since it would seem to imply an awareness or broad contact with Islam or a deep influence from Islam, when all that is explicit in the source is that Ife had direct contact with Sahelian cultures that were Muslim.

I also see that you added the following:

"The Yoruba were connected via trade routes to Northern Africa and Islamic culture, including that of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa.[3] Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3] Ife became a cosmopolitan city state attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."[3]

However, the full quote is: "West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons. In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria. Its rulers promoted crafts, particularly copper-alloy casting, weaving, and bead-making. Its legacy includes outstanding naturalistic works of art in stone, terracotta and metal."

It speaks of West Africa generally but does not state that Ife was a place where Muslim merchants, artisans, or scholars went (it does not say which cities were), but rather refers to the parts of West Africa that were a source of gold for Europe, which was the Sahel/Savanna, especially the Ghana, Mali, and Songhai Empires, not Ife/southern Nigeria. Islam spread into large areas of the Sahel region (and some of the savanna) but it never spread to Ice (which was and remained a non-Islamic culture — Islam did not spread to the Yoruba region until much later).

It only says that Ife grew "in this context", which is fairly vague and may mean in the context of interaction with the African states that had been influenced by the Islamic world in the aforementioned way (since the source says that traded with them)

It is not stated in the source anywhere the Ife specifically (or the Yoruba region specifically) attracted Muslim scholars, clerics, or artisans, nor that Islam ever spread to Ife. It is not at all clear that the source's mention that "Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam" refers to Ife. Adding an interpretation that is not explicitly stated in the source is against Wikipedia policies (please see WP:NOR).

Regarding the statement that there were no known European contacts at the time, that does seem to be the case since the earlier known contact of European with Ife were much later (though Europeans had reached other parts of West Africa by then). However, it seems to that both the statement that there may have been no European envoys and the statement that there ws Islamic contact are unecessary and of questionable relevance. I am fine with the excluding the first statement (about Europeans) but I also think the second (about Islam and indirect contact with North Africa) should probably be removed. All it seems to do is misleading imply (in the lede no less) that the Ife head was somehow influenced or stimulated by Islamic or Mediterranean culture (which is a claim that is not made either in this source or in a any reliable source it is generally considered to be an indigenous Africa development). The article is about an Ife artistic artifact, the nature of Ife's trade links or contacts of lack thereof with other regions seems beside the point since no explicit connection between that and the art is mentioned in the source.

However, I think that, if the sentence is to be kept, my edit, mentioning direct contact with the Islamic Sahel and indirect trade contacts with North Africa and Andalucia accurately reflects what is explicitly stated in the source.

Your recent edit summary does not seem to make respond or engage with the points had I made in my notes. You wrote: "The statement of no European contact lacks a source itself. What i added to the article has sources, and sticks to them."

But I never removed your sources. I simply edited the statements you had made, explaining why my changes were better supported by the sources and tried to explain the issues with what you had written. And my notes made no mention the issue of contact with Europe.

If you have disagreements, please discuss here, thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 20:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

"is certainly true in the sense that it belonged to a network of trade that included the African Sahel kingdoms, which as the source says, 'in turn' had contact with traders from the Mediterranean world" this is what I mean by indirect contact. "known direct contact with Muslims that did existed there was with the Sahel states" this is what I mean by direct contact. Then yes, the source does directly put Ife in a trade route connecting it up to Andalusia, and it does state that Muslim scholars, artisans etc. were active in Ife. By the way, I found the BBC source here, i.e. I made no research so far. I edited after common knowledge and sources already present, just checking at the British Museum and finding out that the dating had been shifted back of one century. "that the Ife head was somehow influenced or stimulated by Islamic culture (which is a claim that is not made either in this source or in a any reliable source," well, it was. "Islam culture" is part of Islam, spreading with the latter. The source goes further though, saying that "This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas", after connecting Ife to Andalusia "Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as [...] Ife to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara [...] linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad." I am fine with deleting from the lead the whole sentence.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 21:16, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden:

You wrote:

"well, it was. "Islam culture" is part of Islam, spreading with the latter. The source goes further though, saying that "This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas",

Ife was not an Islamic culture and the source never says that (figurative representation of people are generally discouraged or forbidden in Islam and the art of Ife was connected to indigenous Yoruba religion and kingship) and its art was not an Islamic art. Nor did Islam ever spread to Ife. The art of Ife did not "spread with Islam". It does not say that anywhere.

As I explained above, the source does not explicitly say those things about Ife specifically and never says that the head was influenced by Islamic culture. It says this things about cities of West Africa (that does not necessarily mean all cities in every part of West Africa). There were many regions in West Africa and many other cities there, some of those cities and regions had Islamic clerics and artisans and Muslim influences (especially in the the Sahel and Savanna regions). But the source does not specifically say that Ife had those things, and representing the source as if it did say that is WP:OR.

As I explained above:

You wrote:

...Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3] Ife became a cosmopolitan city state attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."[3]

However, the full quote is:

"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons.

In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria. Its rulers promoted crafts, particularly copper-alloy casting, weaving, and bead-making. Its legacy includes outstanding naturalistic works of art in stone, terracotta and metal."

It speaks of West Africa generally but does not state that Ife was a place where Muslim merchants, artisans, or scholars went (it does not say which cities were), but rather refers to the parts of West Africa that were a source of gold for Europe, which was the Sahel/Savanna, especially the Ghana, Mali, and Songhai Empires, not Ife/southern Nigeria. Islam spread into large areas of the Sahel region (and some of the savanna) but it never spread to Ife (which was and remained a non-Islamic culture — Islam did not spread to the Yoruba region until much later).

It only says that Ife grew "in this context", which is fairly vague and may mean in the context of membership in a cosmopolitan trade network and/or interaction with the African states that had been influenced by and had direct contact with the Islamic world in the aforementioned way (since the source says that traded with them). It says that Ive became a "cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre" but does not say which groups were personally or directly present there (that is at Ife itself),

It is not stated in the source anywhere that Ife specifically (or the Yoruba region specifically) attracted Muslim scholars, clerics, or artisans, nor that Islam ever spread to Ife. It is not at all clear that the source's mention that "Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam" refers to Ife. Adding an interpretation that is not explicitly stated in the source is against Wikipedia policies (please see WP:NOR). We only edit based on what the sources explicitly say.

Please read what I have explained. The source never says those things about Ife specifically. Also, the source is not a specialist scholarly source but a journalistic source, an article from the BBC (with slightly ambiguous language), and may in fact not be WP:RS (acceptable as a source according to Wikipedia policies) as a standalone. For scholarly subjects and claims such at this one, it is better to have a book and/or academic study. Skllagyook (talk) 21:32, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

When you say things like: "figurative representation of people are generally discouraged in Islam " and "Islam did not spread to the Yoruba region until much later", you are making your own considerations, which beside being wrong or leading to wrong conclusions are beside the point here. Again, the source was here before I edited and trust me is more to your pov than what you think. Yet what I wrote sticks to it, I invite you to read the source and what I wrote again and more carefully. Your explanations of the history of Ife/Africa have no purpose here. You can move them to the article if you wish, just provide sources and be careful not to fall in WP:OR. --Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 22:04, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: It's not about my personal opinions. I am not trying to add those to the article (like the claim that Islam discourages figurative art). The issue is that the source simply does not say what you are claiming and I have explained why. If somethong is not explicitly stating in the source, it is not an acceptable addition per Wikipedia policies (WP:NOR. Your interpretation/opinion that Ife art was Islamically-based or influenced or that Islam spread to Ife are not stated in the source (it just doesn't say that). Please read my comment above, where I explain (more than once) the issues in detail in reference to the source. Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 22:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: "The issue is that the source simply does not say what you are claiming", the point is that it does. What is written in the lead does stick to the source, and the former is in turn justified by the source. The only thing we lack here is a source for the claim of no European contact. "Like the claim that Islam discourages figurative art", not sure what you are hinting at with this, but those are your conjectures which moreover fail to understand Islamic history and art and the difference between discouraging and being great masters, the sentence hinting at the Muslims' mastery as it hints at Europeans'. "Your interpretation/opinion that Ife art was Islamically-based or influenced", this is not what I or the sentence say, nor necessarily what's implied, although the source does confirm spread of Islam, presence of Muslim scholars and artisans, and the connection of Ife to Andalusia. My addition of that bit was in response to the claim that categorically excluded European contact, which is questionable and moreover had no source. If it's worth mentioning no European contact (my reasoning followed), then it is also worth mentioning contact with Islam culture and peripheral contact with Mediterranean culture. It's either both or neither.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 23:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: The claim did not and does not categorically (as in with certainty) say that there was no European contact. It said (in my edit) "before known European contact", and in the previous edit and now it says "possibly before" European contact. Neither of these are catagorical at all.

But, I understand your concern regarding unsourced statements, and as I said, I am fine with removing both the part about possibly no European contact and the part you added about Islamic contact, if you agree (since you are saying you added the second because of/in response to the first).

Regarding the rest, as I just explained above, my objections to what you added to the article are not because "Islam disgouraged figurative sculpture". That was something mentioned briefly and in passing, and I never tried to add it to the article nor would I ever without a source. That was not the main point. I request that you please read the entirety of my replies to you above.

My actual issues with your edits were explained several times already. The source never says that Ife specifically was a place where Islamic scholars or artisans were present or that Islam spread to Ife or its area specifically (that is described in the source as happening within West Africa, and that's all that's clear/explicit in the source, not exactly where or which West African cities or cultures). I have explained this repeatedly and with the full quotes. You have quoted the source in the article as though the source says that about Ife specifically and by name when it does not. If you wanted to add the full quote as it appears in the source (as I quoted it in my first post in this discussion) that would be different and I would not object. But WP:OR is against Wikipedia policies. Material added to an article must be explicit and unambiguous in the source. Skllagyook (talk) 00:03, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: You are mixing up things or twisting my words: I just finished explaining why I edited the lead in the first place, thus before you made your edit. Again, I'm fine with removing the sentence, but not the rest. Everything is confirmed by the source, which connects Ife up to Andalusia: (full paragraph): "Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad." And then, through these routes, "Diverse local and Mediterranean commodities were traded – woven and dyed cloths, kola nuts, gold, iron, slaves, beads, copper and copper alloys, ivory, embroidered cloths, imported luxury cloths." Then the West-African cities mentioned above, geographically located in West Africa, "competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them." (the kingdom of Ife being "one of several competing West African kingdoms that developed during the medieval period.") "This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons." It was then "In this context [that] Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria. Its rulers promoted crafts, particularly copper-alloy casting, weaving, and bead-making. Its legacy includes outstanding naturalistic works of art in stone, terracotta and metal." The source refers to Ife, there is no reason to "climb mirrors" and read it the way you do.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 10:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: I know what the full quote says. But it says that Islamic scholars, artisans, etc. were present at "African cities" after having discussed many West African cities (some of which were Muslim or islamized and some of which were not) and regions. But this does not mean that those are true of Ife specifically, nor does it say that . It does not say which African cities this applies to, and only says that Ife grew in a West African "context" where those things were happening (because it was connected to a variety of places by trade. Then, after discussing the "context", it goes (when talking specifically of Ife) on to talk about how Ife (in its own right) was a cosmopolotan and a center for trade and crafts etc. I think that a more full quote that contextuallizes what you added should be included (in the "Impact on art history" section of the article) instead of de-contextualized sections. I would add:

"Ife was part of a network connected to both local and long-distance trade, including the Saharan trade via the Islamic kingdoms of the African Sahel which connected to the Islamic Mediterranean and world."

And then (from the source):

"Trade routes criss-crossed West Africa, linking the northern savannah cities such as Gao, Timbuktu, Djenne, and the southern forest centres such as Begho, Igbo-Ukwu, Ife and Oyo, to the Hausa states such as Kano and Zaria, and reaching Ngazargamo in Kanem-Bornu. That regional trade was in turn connected to the considerable trade across the Sahara desert to the north. These trans-Saharan exchanges linking Northern (together with Andalusia in Spain) and North-eastern Africa to trading cities in West Africa and on Lake Chad."

"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam. Major cities flourished as places of international trade attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics from various horizons.

In this context Ife grew to become a flourishing cosmopolitan city-state, a commercial and trading centre regarded today as the legendary homeland of the Yoruba-speaking peoples. It established significant political and religious authority in the lower Niger region, in what is now modern Nigeria."

This puts it all into context for the reader. This way the source remains and nothing relevant is excluded. Skllagyook (talk) 11:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: It does mean that "those are true of Ife specifically", which is what the source says and the reason why it reports it. Reporting the full paragraph (from a source I thought you considered unreliable) is not the best choice imo. I would only edit the article by deleting the discussed sentence in the lead and making these edits (changes are in bold): "The Yoruba were connected via trade routes to Northern Africa and Mediterranean culture including that of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa.[3] Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3] Ife became a cosmopolitan city, part of a group of cities/region attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."[3].--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 11:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: I have no problem with removing the mention of connections with Islam and Andalucia etc. from the lede if that is what you mean. But my main issue at the moment is not as much with the lede. The greater issue for me is your additions to the "Impact on art history" section toward the end of the article, since, as mentioned, the source reports these things of "West Africa" and not Ife specifically. I was unsure whether the source is reliable (since it is not scholarly and does not reference sources that are) but journalistic sources are sometimes accepted, so It may be reliable. But if we are including it, it should be quoted in appropriate context. Regarding your recent proposed edits for that section, they are better than the current wording (thank you for that), but it seems to me that they could still use some improvement.

I would reword "The Yoruba were connected via trade routes to Northern Africa and Mediterranean culture including that of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa" more as follows (adding more detail from the source):

"The Yoruba were connected indirectly via trade routes to the Mediterranean world: They traded with the African cities of the forest and savannah to the north, and that regional trade in turn crossed the Sahara and linked to Northern African and Mediterranean cultures including those of of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa."

regarding your proposed addition:

"Trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3]

When it speaks of the spread of Islam it is referring to the Aftican stated that traded gold to Europe, the quote is:

"West Africa was also a major supplier of gold to Europe. Big states and regional powers competed to control the trade which brought enormous wealth and power to them. This trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam"

It does not specify Ife there, and it mentions the gold trading part of West Africa, which was to the north of Ife (e.g. the Ghana and Mali Empires which are known for having hosted and interacted with Muslims before becoming Muslim themselves). In the above quote they are discussing the general cosmopolitan context in which Ife developed (at least in the relevant period) within a West Africa where Islam has spread and where Ife had trade links (which contrubuted to its wealth). And Ife is then specifically discussed in a following paragraph.

So I would reword it somewhat as follows:

In the West African regions involved in the gold trade, this trade was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."

Regarding your proposed addition below:

Ife became a cosmopolitan city, part of a group of cities/region attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."

This is a significant improvement and less misleading than before, because it describes Ife as "part of a group of cities/region" instead of directly giving the impression/stating that the source is talking of Ife specifically when mentioning Muslim clerics and scholars etc. (when it is not clear whether or not they were present at Ife), though in the source, the mention of Ife as a cosmopolitan city comes after the mention of Islamic scholars etc. (where Ife is not specified).

I might reword it along the lines of something like:

"Ife became a cosmopolitan city, connected to West African cities and regions that attracted merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."

Or perhaps better (and closer to the source), as:

"Ife became a cosmopolitan city in a context of a West African trade network of cities and regions that attracted merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."

These seem like reasonable alternatives (though I still somewhat favor using the full quote, which, though admittedly a bit long, seems to best convey the nuance of the source). Skllagyook (talk) 12:35, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: The source is talking also about Ife when "mentioning Muslim clerics and scholars etc.", that is what it says and the reason why it reports it. It was part of a trade route that connected it to Andalusia; Islam touched and affected the region, including Ife, which is what the source and my knowledge tell me (the source doesn't exclude Ife when it says that the trade routes in which Ife is explicitly included encompassed also the trade of gold, and that the gold trade [mostly including states to the north of Ife] brought Muslim scholars, artisans etc. to the area [of Western Africa, including the cosmopolitan Ife]. That Islam had (already) come, with the scholars and culture it brings along, to the area of Ife, then, is not excluded by the source, and then confirmed by common knowledge; quoting from Wikipedia: "Islam also came to the southwestern Yoruba-speaking areas during the time of the Mali Empire. In his Movements of Islam in face of the Empires and Kingdoms in Yorubaland, Sheikh Dr. Abu-Abdullah Adelabu supported his claims on early arrival of Islam in the southwestern Nigeria by citing the Arab anthropologist Abduhu Badawi, who argued that the fall of Koush southern Egypt and the prosperity of the politically multicultural Abbasid period in the continent had created several streams of migration, moving west in the mid-9th Sub-Sahara.[9]")

By saying that it was connected to those cities/regions you are saying something that the source doesn't claim, that it wasn't part of them/that region, thus purposefully distancing (actually, excluding) Ife from those cities/that region. What I proposed "Ife became a cosmopolitan city, part of a [/group of cities] region attracting merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons"" is already enough.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 13:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: All I am doing in my proposed edits (above) is adding more from the source to bring them closer to what it actually and explicitly says. It seems better to include that or the full quote with context (so a general reader can see and decide what it says) rather that cherry-picked and seemingly misleadingly arranged excerpts.

You wrote:

"That Islam had (already) come, with the scholars and culture it brings along, to the area of Ife, then, is not excluded by the source, and then confirmed by common knowledge"

Common knowledge is not a reliable source (WP:RS). There must be a (verifiable) reliable source that explicitly states what you want to add. I have read many books and archaeological reports on Ife, and none have ever mention or find evidence of a Muslim influence or presence there (though they do mention trade networks/connections with Islamic cultures). But I would not add that or anything else to the article without a source stating it. My proposed edits do not necessarily exclude Ife from those cities, but rather do not say whether or not Ife was included (among the cities in contacts with Muslim clerics etc.) because it is simarly ambiguous in the source (it could have been included or not).

You wrote:

quoting from Wikipedia: "Islam also came to the southwestern Yoruba-speaking areas during the time of the Mali Empire. In his Movements of Islam in face of the Empires and Kingdoms in Yorubaland, Sheikh Dr. Abu-Abdullah Adelabu supported his claims on early arrival of Islam in the southwestern Nigeria by citing the Arab anthropologist Abduhu Badawi, who argued that the fall of Koush southern Egypt and the prosperity of the politically multicultural Abbasid period in the continent had created several streams of migration, moving west in the mid-9th Sub-Sahara.[9]")"

Wikipedia is not a a reliable source for editing Wikipedia (we cannot use other articles as refs) but the author named there might be a reliable source. Can you link the Wikipedia article that quote is from so that I can find the source it is quoting (with page numbers etc.) to see whether it is verifiable? If it is reliable and verifiable, it might be able to be used. Maybe there was Islam in part of Medieval Yorubaland (though, unless it mentions Ife - as opposed to just Yorubaland- , using it in this article could be WP:OR or WP:SYNTH). I would be interested to see a link to the article where you found that quote. The source could be helpfull. Thank you. Skllagyook (talk) 14:20, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook:"rather that cherry-picked and seemingly misleadingly arranged excerpts", excuse me, can you explain this?

Then, you wrote:

""That Islam had (already) come, with the scholars and culture it brings along, to the area of Ife, then, is not excluded by the source, and then confirmed by common knowledge" Common knowledge is not a reliable source (WP:RS). There must be a (verifiable) reliable source that explicitly states what you want to add. I have read many books and archaeological reports on Ife, and none have ever mention or find evidence of a Muslim influence or presence there (though they do mention trade networks/connections with Islamic cultures). But I would not add that or anything else to the article without a source stating it. You wrote: quoting from Wikipedia: "Islam also came to the southwestern Yoruba-speaking areas during the time of the Mali Empire. In his Movements of Islam in face of the Empires and Kingdoms in Yorubaland, Sheikh Dr. Abu-Abdullah Adelabu supported his claims on early arrival of Islam in the southwestern Nigeria by citing the Arab anthropologist Abduhu Badawi, who argued that the fall of Koush southern Egypt and the prosperity of the politically multicultural Abbasid period in the continent had created several streams of migration, moving west in the mid-9th Sub-Sahara.[9]")" Wikipedia is not a a reliable source for editing Wikipedia (we cannot use other articles as refs) but the author named there might be a reliable source. Can you link the Wikipedia article that quote is from so that I can find the source it is quoting (with page numbers etc.) to see whether it is verifiable? If it is reliable and verifiable, it might be able to be used. Maybe there was Islam in part of Medieval Yorubaland (though, unless it mentions Ife - as opposed to just Yorubaland- , using it in this article could be WP:OR or WP:SYNTH). I would be interested to see a link to the article where you found that quote. The source could be helpfull. Thank you.

My undue, very brief mention of the history of the region, was my falling in your circular and circuitous argument and way of arguing, which in your case (beside considerations external to the source) includes exclusion, misinterpretation, and undue doubts cast over what the source says (and the reliability thereof, which, again, is more to your side than what you think and was here before I first edited), with no apparent reason identifiable assuming good faith, perhaps deriving from your failure to fully understand the original text and/or what my edit to the article expresses. You started by, and kept on, bringing your personal knowledge and conjectures to the table. My argument is not about that single fact (that Islamic culture, and not only Islamic culture, had come into contact with Ife way earlier than when this object was made, which I reiterate---and the source still encompasses; nor on my opinion that alongside Italians Muslims were the greatest sculptors, philosophers and scholars in that time frame, nor on the fact that depiction of living beings even where prohibited and monitored is well-documented and part of some of the greatest Muslim works, nor on the connection to Byzantines and Persians and the Greek contributions to the Islamic world), but simply about what the source says, about what was written by the BBC journalist who created the article, so let's focus on it. I do have a knowledge of the history of the region, but I don't need to expose it here or add it to the article to justify my edits, because what I added to the article is simply what this particular source says. What we lack is a source for no European contact. We do lack that. Again, if you feel the need to add the (wrong) belief that Ife had not come into contact with Islamic culture before the making of this object to the article, you are free to do it, just make sure it relates to the article and heed WP:RS and WP:OR.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: I would like to ask that you please not engage in personal aspersions/accusations or hostility (see WP:NPA). As I have already stressed, it is not about my personal intpretations opinions, or conjecture (which I am not proposing adding to the article and never did) nor is it about either of our opinions on Islamic or other sculpture. The issue here, as I have explained, is the fact that the source you added (the BBC source) simply does not explicitly state what you are claiming it does. I have made an effort to explain several times why that is the case at length and it detail. I do not see what I am misinterpreting. I suggested edit quoting a more full section of the source to contextualize things. I would have thought that would be a good solution. But you have for some reason rejected that suggestion. I think it is the best solution/compromise to avoid excluding any information, as well as to avoid misrepresenting an ambiguous and contested source (leaving no room for either of our interpretations). Please consider it. Skllagyook (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook:I'm sorry, you answer my request of explanations for your ""rather that cherry-picked and seemingly misleadingly arranged excerpts"," by warning me of WP:NOPA and talking about aspersion? Then, " is the fact that the source you added (the BBC source) simplpy does not [...]", this seems to show a failure of listening or understanding on your part, since I said, underscored several times that the source was here before I edited, that I made no research so far except checking at the British Museum and finding out that the dating had been moved back of one century. I repeat that what I proposed doesn't only represent what's being said in the source, but, in addition to this, it doesn't even exclude your interpretation of the source text. My concern about edit quoting the full section is that it impedes reading (the sentence proposed encapsulating most of the article), and, as a consequence, that in the future it might be removed completely, thus losing the mention of a connection to Andalusia and the Mediterranean, the contact with Islamic culture and above all the cosmopolitan nature of Ife, which are important to this article. Another rendering of what already proposed might be: ""The Yoruba were connected via trade routes to Northern Africa and the Mediterranean culture, including that of Andalusia and North-eastern Africa.[3] Trade also involved gold, of which West African states and local regional powers were great suppliers to Europe. This trade "was a powerful channel for crafts, skills, new ideas and consumer goods, as well as for the spread of Islam."[3] Ife became a cosmopolitan city, part of a region that attracted merchants, artisans, Muslim scholars and clerics "from various horizons."[3].". What about this?--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 17:45, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Haldir Marchwarden: Alright. I suppose your most recent proposed edit does follow the source. So I'm ok with it. Skllagyook (talk) 18:17, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: Good, done.--Haldir Marchwarden (talk) 18:41, 21 April 2021 (UTC)