Talk:Bridget (Guilty Gear)/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2022

Add Biological sex: Male next to "Gender:Female"

Reason: "while Bridget was born male, depending on how well you do in the Arcade mode (to get the "bad" ending) of Strive, she will come to terms and will identify as a girl.

Even if the cited source is the English localizers, this change would make both camps happy. 74.195.238.145 (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This is being discussed above. Please join the discussion, rather than opening edit requests. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:14, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: We generally do not add such a field for either trans characters or people, and the infobox does not have a parameter to support doing so. As for the citation, it is not specific to the English localisation, and is instead a translated interview with the series creator that appears to apply to all versions of the game. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:15, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Less sniping at other editors please. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:16, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

So, Wikipedia allows opinions, but not facts? Fucking bullshit. "Gender is a social construct"... "Bridget self identifies as female", meaning that Bridget's gender is female, yet the facts point to the "unchanging constant" that , biologically, Bridget is a male. If you wrote an article about a cat raised dogs, and said cat behaved like a dog, would you put "Species:Canis Familiaris? No, you'd put Felis Domesticus, because those are the facts... Yes, in the real world, the facts are "the way we wrote the character, they believe that they are a girl, even though they were born as a boy" So for the sake of stating facts, you'd need both the gender and the biological sex. No wonder teachers used to say "Never cite Wikipedia, anyone can alter any page. Do not take anything written on Wikipedia as fact." Even though my grad school permits citing Wikipedia "As Wikipedia is a crowd sourced encyclopedia where intellectuals collaborate on writing factual articles." I never cite Wikipedia, for this exact reason. And besides, there are single use accounts, like FemaleCorrin who only contribute to a single article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.236.49 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 14 September 2022 (UTC) Wikipedia doesn't usually put biological sex into infoboxes, but writes about it somewhere in the article, and this one mentions it in literally the second sentence. "Wikipedia doesn't agree with me so it's a bad source" is a pretty bold statement. Underfell Flowey (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2022 (UTC) https://www.guiltygear.com/ggst/en/news/post-1657/ Nah you lost. Get over it. Bridget is confirmed trans. There's no pleasing both sides". YOU. LOST. Chud's I swear. 174.88.107.209 (talk) 21:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC) Yo did you just call out someone for only editing this article as an IP address? That's funny. - Whadup, it's ya girl, Dusa (talk) 22:41, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2022 (2)

Remove citation 45. It is unnecessary. Why would you source an article that directly quotes the source material? (Which is both citation 3 and 46) 174.247.236.49 (talk) 22:59, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Fanbyte is a reliable source, and on Wikipedia we prefer secondary sources over primary sources for article content, especially controversial article content. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:02, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I have though just merged the duplicate citations 3 and 46. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:04, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

But why, Fanbyte may be reliable, but they basically repeat what citation 3 says and they even link back to the same URL that citation 3 links to. The citation seems a bit unnecessary, unless it's being included as a source for the "backlash".

The "legitimacy" of the citation also comes into question, because the last two paragraphs seem like a hit piece written by a middle schooler and not a reputable journalist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.236.49 (talk) 23:14, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The why is because of policy, which states Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

Accordingly, Fanbyte is used to support the sentence Some fans alleged that Bridget's trans identity was invented by the translation and localization team and was not present in the Japanese version of the game.. That sentence seems like a fair representation of both the wider off-wiki discourse surrounding the character's recent appearance, and also some of the comments in past discussions on this talk page which alleged that it was a localisation only change. As for the final two paragraphs of the Fanbyte piece, having seen the discourse off-wiki while trying to do research surrounding the character's recent appearance, I can see why the author phrased it the way that they did. Note that we don't use that language in the article, in no small part because it is unencyclopaedic, however it does overall seem a fair summary even if somewhat pointed. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Alright, 45 is fine for the part about backlash, but is unnecessary for the final sentence (which follows the lines you've quoted)

In response, series creator Daisuke Ishiwatari and Strive director Akira Katano confirmed that Bridget self-identifies as a woman and uses "she/her" pronouns on the official Guilty Gear website.[45][3]

A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a musician may cite discographies and track listings published by the record label, and an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source.

So in this situation, the series director has stated, in a straightforward manner, that Bridget is a girl; there isnt a need for a secondary source, in order for the average user to understand what's being said — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.236.49 (talk) 23:37, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

As with my previous answer, per policy we prefer secondary sources over primary sources, even if content isn't controversial. Secondary sources help us assess how we weigh certain content, in order to comply with another of our core policies. Adding content to a Wikipedia article is a careful balance between verifiability, no original research, and the neutral point of view. All must be satisfied for content to be added, and this impacts on both the language we use in the article and the sources we use to support that. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:42, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

New Blogpost from Diasuke Ishiwatari: "The Developers Backyard"

So ArcsystemWorks routines does indepth interviews on the development process surrounding Guilty Gear titled "The Developers Backyard." They recently released a new blogpost where they touched on the developments surrounding Bridget. https://www.guiltygear.com/ggst/en/news/post-1657/

"So, as to whether 'he' or 'she' would be the correct pronoun for Bridget, the answer would be 'she.'

Akira Katano, the director of the game, also debunked this notion that there is such a thing as a Good or Bad ending in the arcade ladder. Stating that both versions just show "different aspects of the characters." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.101.39.246 (talk) 10:45, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

So that would appear to confirm, that, yes, Bridget is a trans woman? Dronebogus (talk) 12:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Literally nobody thought any different, just sockpuppets of a few bad actors being transphobic. FemaleCorrin (talk) 16:31, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I would hope that this would inspire people to stop relying on machine translation, but I suspect that a lot of people who relied on it did so because they were trying to prove what they believe rather than find the truth. - Whadup, it's ya girl, Dusa (talk) 22:49, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Even with the machine translations, some folks in the wider discourse (i.e. off-wiki, not involving editors) were using some very selective sections from the Japanese character bio. They were also seemingly glossing over that the bio itself only covered the period leading up to Bridget's appearance in Strive, and didn't actually have any content on how her story ends in it. As with a lot of related discourse on other trans characters and people, this seems more like something from the wider anti-trans culture war rather than any sort of good faith commentary.

Also note, I'm not making commentary on any editors here. Just on the wider discourse off-wiki about this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the fact that any attempt to muddy the waters around Bridget being trans, from selective quote-mining to empty platitudes regarding "cultural differences" and "the ambiguity of the japanese language" is coming exclusively from anti-trans culture warriors as opposed to being part of a wider discourse has ever been in doubt. The "controversy can be traced back to the exact same dozen alt-right trolls who's names pop up every single time another "controversy" comes around. The fact that to this very day they don't have a wikipedia article documenting and exposing their shenanigans is frustrating to say the least. 46.97.170.32 (talk) 10:46, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2022

Re-add the following.

, although the Guilty Gear fanbase remained split on the perceived changing of an iconic character in otokonoko subculture into a girl.

Sankaku Complex is just as reliable a source as Fanbyte; if you think about it, the articles published on Fanbyte are authored by independent contractors that are not directly employed by Fanbyte and therefore, one can conclude that Fanbyte also distributes user generated content. 174.247.251.230 (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Neither Sanaku Complex nor Popgeeks appear to be reliable sources. If you believe they are reliable sources, then please open a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard or the WikiProject Video games/Sources talk page to establish their reliability first.

If those sources are found to be reliable as a result of that discussion, you can then return here to establish consensus for this edit before making another edit request relating to this content. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2022 (2)

Please edit the Russian page to reflect Bridget's sex. The template very clearly says sex (пол) , it DOES NOT say gender( жанр)

Either change it to say пол:Мужчина, or take an even more drastic measure and alter the template to refer to the gender жанр:Женщина

It was asked on the Russian talk page, but an admin puppet account removed the discussion. 174.247.251.230 (talk) 22:38, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: This talk page is for discussion about the English language version of Bridget (Guilty Gear), and this is unfortunately not the correct venue for making edit requests on the Russian Wikipedia. The correct venue to make such a request at ru:Обсуждение:Бриджет_(Guilty_Gear), and if your edit request is being removed at that talk page, then you may wish to look into the dispute resolution mechanism elsewhere on that Wiki. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

As a Russian Wiki editor I'm going to point out that this editor also used an incorrect translation of the word, «ru:жанр» which means genre, while the correct translation would be «ru:гендер» which does mean gender, and it is present in the template. This should be an obvious example of his "mastery" of the Russian language. My only further response to that, if this anonymous editor will continue flinging out insults, it will only result in him being added to local list of LTAs and the article being permanently edit-protected. So again I would advise against bringing the western-related culture war into the Russian language, which has already settled the issue of sex/gender distinction aaaages ago. That's it. --Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 05:31, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Gender "female" should be removed

Gender female is to only be used if it is not obvious that they are female. As Bridget looks, sounds and behaves like a woman, the field "Gender: Female" is not needed.

If you look at every other Guilty Gear character, you will see that their gender is not mentioned in the template and that the template says the following "The gender of the character. Use only if not obvious."

---

And to the New Zealander who's first tongue isn't even Russian, English isn't mine either so «es:género» (Genus/Gender) does, in fact, translate to «ru:жанр» so you're wrong there. You also shouldn't be insulting other editors, it doesn't matter whether they're logged in or no.

I do not consent to my PI address being made public, as it is classified as IPI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.240.233 (talk • contribs) 16:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Based on past discussions, listed above and in the archives for this talk page, there is a consensus based on reliable sources and statements by the game's developers that Bridget's gender is female. If you wish to challenge this consensus, please review the past discussions and provide reliable, secondary sources that support the changes you wish to make. Thank you. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:42, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Exactly! Bridget looks like a female, Bridget dresses like a female, Bridget acts like a female, Bridget sounds like a female and the developers have stated that Bridget is female.

With that consensus, it is obvious that Bridget is female. As it is obvious, the field in the infobox is not necessary.

"The gender of the character. Use only if not obvious."

Again, as it is obvious that Bridget is female, the field in the infobox is hundred by hundred not necessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.240.233 (talk) 16:54, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

remove "Gender:Female" from the infobox, as the specific field should only be used if the gender is not obvious.

With both in-universe and real world evidence pointing to Bridget being female and your own statement:

"Based on past discussions, listed above and in the archives for this talk page, there is a consensus based on reliable sources and statements by the game's developers that Bridget's gender is female."

It is very obvious that Bridget is female. Please remove mention of Bridget's gender from the info box. (Unless you intend to add a gender to every video game character, regardless of how obvious their gender is?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.240.233 (talk) 17:59, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

I believe the sheer number of recent discussions on this demonstrate that, despite the sourcing and because of the recent controversy surrounding the character coming out as trans, Bridget's gender is not obvious. Sideswipe9th (talk) 18:06, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

To each their own opinion. How about a poll (should be a built into MW software)

<poll show-results-before-voting> Do you think that it's obvious that Bridget is female? Yes No </poll>

<poll show-results-before-voting> If you voted "yes" above, should Bridget's gender be removed from the infobox? Yes No </poll>

I am Russian in New Zealand, Russian is my first language. Also, it seems you're misinterpreting the Spanish language too. What you refer to is es:Género (ciencias sociales), which, surprise, translates to ru:Гендер, not ru:Жанр which means es:Género artístico. Again, no. There's no vote to be held. The sources believe it's an important thing to be pointed out, and the major part of article is dedicated to the gender, so therefore it's in the infobox. --Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 15:39, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

If an individual's gender is obvious, why would you seek to point it out further?

"Hey look at me, I am a girl. Yes, I look, sound and act like a girl but my self-centeredness requires me to wear this badge that points out what is already obvious."

And why is this one of the only transgendered characters to have their gender pointed out? I don't see Poison (Final Fight) or Erica (Catherine) having their genders labeled, even though it is well documented that they are transgender. So why does Bridget get special treatment?

This goes against the good nature of Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.253.85 (talk) 16:06, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Fix historical pronoun usage

Ishawatari also said that Bridget was a difficult character to animate; she "has double the frames of animation" Bridget was male at the time, therefore he should be used instead.

Bridget was created as "a cute character" by Daisuke Ishiwatari, who wanted to vary the cast of Guilty Gear X2, where she was presented as a cross-dressing but self-identifying boy. 

At this time in history, Bridget hadn't come out as trans yet, therefore he should be used instead

In short, everything prior to Guilty Gear Strive should use male pronouns. If you don't, you end up with strange sentences like "Bridget was initially described as female by video game press. When they became aware that she was a boy,"

Looking at it as if you were writing a real person's life storyin chronological order, you would use the "old" pronouns up until the person transitioned and afterwords, you'd use the "proper" terminology. 174.247.253.85 (talk) 16:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. Use of pronouns on Wikipedia, even for fictional characters, is informed by MOS:GENDERID and MOS:GIDINFO. As such, articles generally use the pronouns that reflect the person's (or in this case character's) most recent expressed gender identity as reported in reliable sources.

Current reliable sources refer to Bridget as a woman, and use she/her pronouns, and so our article uses those pronouns. If you wish to change this, please establish a consensus first before making an edit request to enact the changes. Thanks. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Also about if you were writing a real person's life storyin chronological order I would suggest that you review our articles on notable trans and non-binary individuals to see how we refer to individuals who have changed their pronouns. For example, Elliot Page, Chelsea Manning, Emma Corrin, and Eddie Izzard. We do not mix pronoun use in an article as you are suggesting, as per guidelines we use an individuals most recent pronouns only. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:58, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

So you are ok with changing quotes made by real people? The developer referred to Bridget as a "HE" back in 2011(6). Just because it's your policy to not mix pronouns, does that make it ok to alter what a person said?

Take Elliot Page for example. (Fictional quote)

In 2018, his mother said "Ellen is the best daughter in the world"

Would you fix that?

In 2018, his mother said "Elliot is the best son in the world."

In any sane world, no, no you would not alter the words that others have spoken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.253.85 (talk) 18:52, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I've also left a response to your similar remarks made at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Gender identity § Altering a quote that a person said?, but in short, the text being discussed on this page (and the examples given at MOS:GENDERID) demonstrate correct use of elision, paraphrasing, and bracketing quotations (rather than directly altering them) to omit misgendering and misgendering. In your examples, you seem to be deliberately misconstruing or strawmanning this advice by directly altering quotations.

This article's current handling of quotes related to the character's gender seems consistent with the Manual of Style, and best practices of general. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 19:59, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

You may be right, the Japanese text doesn't use any pronouns and opts for the name...

The (archived 2011) Siliconera article uses male pronouns,

Whereas the same article (!updated August 2022) now uses female pronouns and also links to the 2022 interview where Bridget is revealed to be transgender. (Yes, they went back to old articles and edited them with the knowledge of today.)

Also, whoever RoxySaunders is, needs to fix the OBJ squares in their signature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.253.85 (talk) 20:24, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The symbols you're seeing are probably Unicode replacement characters, caused by a missing glyph in your operating system's font, or an error in the browser you're using. On Unicode compatible systems with an up-to-date Emoji font, the glyphs in my signature should render as Transgender flag, Speech balloon, and Memo, respectively. I'm fairly confident the issue does not exist on my end. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 21:03, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I am seeing the emoji correctly on a Mac — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk; please {{ping}} me in replies) 18:49, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

I see  (🏳️⚧️)  (🗨️ellipsis)  (📋✏️)

Depending on which Samsung font is used, and which browser (chromium supports all, others I either see an OBJ or the components of the combined emoji (why some count as 2 characters) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.247.253.85 (talk) 22:28, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Possibility to add details and slight revision to the character's summary

One of her earliest lore entries describes that her parents were pained the more she insisted she was happy. And the character decided to live as a man and prove the superstition wrong in response to that.^[1] Modern entries describes it similarly, like the one from the Guilty Gear Strive Site and Ishiwatari's clarification from the Developer's Backyard:

...Despite their intentions to protect Bridget, it pained her parents to do so as they felt they were forcing her to live a certain way. Bridget realizing this, attempted to bring wealth to the village while behaving like a man, thus overturning the village superstition, as a way to free her parents from their guilt.

I think it would be appropriate to revise and add the details from above to the article, in order to make it more accurate and give reader's more context. Specifically, the Appearances and lead section could be updated to include the motivation to relieve her parent's pain as the reason why she decided to live as a man and for her determination to prove the superstition wrong.

Additionally, a slight correction. In Guilty Gear XX Accent Core Plus, it doesn't allude that she became an entertainer after she felt she has proven her masculinity by defeating several opponents. Rather in-game it only states:

Although Bridget has worked hard to become an accomplished bounty hunter, all of the wanted criminals have already been taken care of. She knew she wouldn't be able to make ends meet if things continued this way.

Looking for consensus on both. Whalord (talk) 16:14, 3 June 2023 (UTC)