Talk:Brenda Shaffer

Untitled

• Prof. Suny's comment about his own comment

Stub

Guys; this is what I put together as a stub but was removed from the main page. Some information is missing (where I have put "?") and I am trying to find these information so fill in the gap if you know the answer please. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/Temp

Don't use this one for now: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brenda_Shaffer&oldid=104606815 Kiumars

Try not to copy large chunks of text from some published article, instead try to make a compilation of various sources. It will not be copyright violation then. Grandmaster 06:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster; do you see big chunks of text in the article? By the way quoting a few lines from an article falls under fair use. Kiumars

I did not really check, just was trying to help you to make article free of copyright problems. Grandmaster 08:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, the whole first paragraph was copied/pasted from the mfa.az source. This is copyright violation. - Francis Tyers · 08:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Francis Tyers see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/Temp; I used quotation marks and should be ok now. Kiumars

Francis Tyers by the way do you see any copyriht sign on the website of The ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Azerbaijan? I am going to ask them anyway. Kiumars

Missing information

Guys, now I need to know when and where she was born? What is her religion (I assume she is Jewish), I assume she is Israeli because she was graduated from Tel Aviv University and works for IDF but we need concrete evidences. Also any academic reviews on her books and works will be appreciated. Kiumars

Yes, I think I can get you some academic reviews. From what I understand, she worked for the Israeli government and is very anti Iranian, claiming that Iran is a fictitious state and other such ridiculous things.Azerbaijani 20:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Helllllpppppppp

Francis_Tyers has put a copyright tag on Brenda Shaffer article and does not reply to my posts and questions! How can we solve this problem? Kiumars

Sorry no one's available to help right now. You may want to try WP:RFC. Good luck. Xiner (talk, email) 02:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove the helpme tag until the issue is resolved! Kiumars

The helpme tag is for your own talk page, not article pages or talk pages. The copyvio notice tells you the appropriate course of action but a few notes based on the above

• Putting quotes around large chunks of text does not resolve a copyvio problem
• Copyright is automatic and implicit, the lack of a copyright notice on a site does not mean it is not copyrighted.

---pgk 12:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Ref: hangon

I changed the contested copyright part and put links to sources instead! Guys what you are all missing is that her biographies in the three sources I have provided are identical word for word (did they violate the coprright?). I hope putting URLs is not a copyright violation here, is it? Now let’s move on, we have far more interesting issues to look at soon! The next stage will be to contest her academic merits! I love this.

See the latest changes at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/TempKiumars

Ok, guys, I have rewritten it, it should be ok now please check the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Brenda_Shaffer/Temp

Please do not place the {{helpme}} on any page other than your own talk page. You can refer to the article from there. --pgk 18:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Amendments

Azerbaijani, please do not remove items without discussing first; I see this as vandalism. Kiumars

Ali; Religion plays a major role in our lives, it is on our birth & death certificates and we are judged and even buried according to our religions; and we all have certain loyalty to our religious beliefs. So it does matter. Kiumars

anon

Please do not spam articles with useless links for promotional purposes. I removed your link because it has nothing to do with Brenda Shaffer and is an interpretation by some other person...Azerbaijani 01:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do not remove biographical information. If you dont like where its positioned, thats one thing, but do not remove information. She was educated in Israel, whats the big deal? Why remove it?Hajji Piruz 16:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why the very first line should say that Shaffer received education in Israel. Is it supposed to make some point or what? I don't see any other biography being arranged like that. Information about her education can be found in the biography section, where it belongs. --Grandmaster 04:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Unbalanced section unbalances article

The "Reviews and Criticism" section (by far the largest in this biography of a living person) is skewed toward unfavourable views and relies on lengthy quotes with large quotation markup. It needs editing as per neutral point of view policy. I tagged it with {{POV-check-section}}. — Athaenara ✉ 01:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. This article has serious neutrality issues. All the criticism is coming from Iranian or pro-Iranian sources. Also, is it Ok to bring the education of this person into the very first line of the sentence, like this: Dr. Brenda Shaffer is an American-born Israeli-educated writer and research fellow at Harvard University? It looks like this is done to make some point. Normally the education is dealt with in the biography section. Grandmaster 05:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Which sources are pro-Iranian? Is Harpers magazine Iranian/pro-Iranian? Is Even Siegel Iranian/pro-Iranian? Is Ralph Luker Iranina/pro-Iranian? Brenda Schaffer is a highly controversial person. Most reviews of her are negative, and this is proportionally shown in the reviews and criticism section, simply because she basically gets paid to re-write history or distorts history to fit her political agenda. Touraj Atabaki is the only Iranian listed, and he is an expert. You had no problem with Atabaki before: [1]. Also, I dont see whats wrong with saying that she was Israeli educate? I dont understand why you want to remove that from the intro so much. There is nothing wrong with here being educated in Israel, I dont understand why references to Israel should be removed.Hajji Piruz 14:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

the article in Harper's Magazine's review has "Academics for Hire" in its TITLE!! (if you know what I mean), so, really what do you expect from the user who put that references in the article? misrepresent the source?

Please remember that you must say something like this for complaining about POV issue: "there are reviews from experts in academia who acclaimed her work, but this article has downplayed it/didn't mention it", but apparently it is not the issue, whenever and wherever you found a positive review, you are welcome to add it to this article but we can not misrepresent the reviews. --Pejman47 14:26, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Shaffer is not controversial, a couple of negative reviews do not make her such, considering that they come from people with evident bias such as Atabaki and Siegel. And yes, there are more positive reviews, I just see no point in adding them, as the reviews section takes inappropriately large space. Also, show me another article about a scholar, which mentions the place of education in the very first line. This article tends to become a character assassination attempt, which is not good and does not comply with NPOV requirements and biography article standards. Community attention is required here. Grandmaster 17:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am looking forward listening to your list of "more positive reviews" from academia; so we can rewrite that section completely. and Don't forget to send an email to Harper Magazine and complain abot their "character assassination"; and also you need a solid proof for your claim about the bias of Atabaki and siegel; Don't forget you also used them in other articles, without any hesitations. --Pejman47 22:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Brenda Shaffer thanked Siegel in her book and she even used Atabaki as a source in her book. Therefore, these two have a right to have their opinion expressed.

Shaffer is a post doc not a scholar. She lacks serious academic credentials. She is a not a "scholar", Atabaki and Siegel are full Professors. You, as well as others, have used one or both before. Harper magazine is not biased. Ralph Luker, Evan Siegel, and Ken Silverstein are not Iranians. I have already posted some of Brenda Shaffers article titles for you before.Hajji Piruz 17:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

after around 2 weeks that the tag added, I can not see any sound reasoning for keeping that tag, and the above responses has not been answered. If anybody has any objection, mention it here. Thanks, --Pejman47 18:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The tag should remain until third party editors review the article. So far that has not been done. Grandmaster 06:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Reviews

LOL. One of the sources was just a person who had read the book and summarized it. Did anyone even actually read it? The entire article is ridiculous, non scholarly, and definetly not reliable or even in a position to be in a "reviews and criticisms" section.

The second source was from the The Journal of International Security Affairs which is published by the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs which is a neo-conservative think tank (according to the website: [2]). Not to mention that it is also non-scholarly.Hajji Piruz 03:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Atabaki is Iranian background source. Why Jewish-linked source is bad. As for your first comment - again it is your opinion with regard to that source.--Dacy69 19:43, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You yourself used Atabaki and he is considered an expert. The The Journal of International Security Affairs is not scholarly and it is a neo-conservative organization, which is why it cannot be used.Hajji Piruz 22:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Now Alexanderpar is removing sourced information. please discuss yopur edit--Dacy69 15:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

AlexanderPar stop removing sourced information from the article without proper explanation. Discuss your edits. Atabek 02:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The explanations have been given. Please read what others have to say.Hajji Piruz 05:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Pejman, please explain why the place of education needs to be mentioned in the very fisrt line of the article? What's wrong with education in Israel and why place of education is not mentioned in the first line of articles about other people? Why do you attach so much importance to this fact? Grandmaster 16:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So, can I imply from your comment above that there is something "wrong with education in Israel"? and please give me any policy for not mentioning the education of somebody in the lead.

and don't blind revert; you remove the category too. --Pejman47 16:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Show me any other biographical article that does that. And please explain why this fact should be mentioned in the very first line. Grandmaster 05:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

sorry, I don't get your reasoning. You are the one who must show that it is in conflict with one of the policies of Wikipedia (for example BLP,...).

But, just for your objection, I moved that part after mentioning her current academic status in Harvard. I hope it will solve the issue. --Pejman47 17:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The Journal is a non neutral and non scholarly source, it doesnt belong here or anywhere on Wikipedia as a source.Hajji Piruz 23:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It is as good as Siegel. Both are Jewish sources, if it is OK to use one, it is OK to use the other. It cannot be called non-neutral just on the basis of ethnic affiliation, because you use Siegel. The argument that the source is not scholarly is simply ridiculous, it is more scholarly than Harpers magazine. Grandmaster 09:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Siegel is a full professor not affiliated with any political organization with agenda's. Why are you making this a race issue? Who cares if he is Jewish or not? His religion does not make him who he is, his work does. Please dont judge a person based on their religion. Him being Jewish has nothing to do with his reliability as a source. The journal is a neo conservative political organization that is un scholarly, that is the difference. Harpers magazine is a very prestigious magazine.

Also, please assume good faith regarding the actions of other users. Thanks.Hajji Piruz 16:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

In response to Atabeks statement: [3] (which he has removed): Read the discussion above, it has been thoroughly discussed. Again, please assume good faith, and dont jump straight to the conclusion that I removed that section without even discussion the issue.Hajji Piruz 19:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Int Security magazine can be quoted here as we have Atabaki, as i said once.--Dacy69 14:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I rvd a self-admited and indef banned sock User:Hu1lee: [4] According to the arbcom clerk, such rvs are not restricted by any parole: [5] Grandmaster 10:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Suny's review is verifiable info. It could also be found on Amazon.com. So no need to add POV claims. Grandmaster (talk) 06:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

man bu reviewi gormadim. Never seen such a review. Maybe there is, but taking her words (on her website) about herself is not reliable. To Brenda herself: If you say controversial things, at least have some courage and do not delete criticism. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If you did not see it, it does not mean that it does not exist. It is also quoted on Amazon.com. Grandmaster (talk) 07:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If she was correct and honest she should had given the source. Yes I have not seen it and Brenda herself has not been helpful. If one had access to the source one could read the whole review in totall and could interpreted it in its context. Then there might have been unpleasant text in it which Brenda did not like. If I find this (hypothetical) review by Suny I will be aeager to add some more quotes from it to this article. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Prof. Suny

I followed the dispute on Prof. Suny and decided to E-mail him myself. Overall, I lost interested in this topic, since Shaffer is now a consultant and does not have a serious Academia position. But here are the response and conversation: "Dear Dr. Suny It says over here that you gave a positive over allview of Brenda Shaffer's book. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brenda_Shaffer&oldid=176337711 Would you happen to have the whole review?

Response: Dear Mr. Doostzadeh:

I read the Shaffer ms for the press and gave a CRITICAL review of the book, advised her to make several changes and additions, worried about the pro- Azerbaijani tilt of the book, but I also thought that she had made some headway into the question of Iranian-Azeri relations. I never wrote a published review of the book. That quotation is taken from my blurb on the book’s cover.

Ron Suny Ronald Grigor Suny Charles Tilly Collegiate Professor of Social and Political Histor The University of Michigan "

Note I did not capitalize the word CRITICAL, but Prof. Suny did. I can forward the E-mail to anyone and Admins. I hope the above response helps, at least it will remain in the talkpage for other users. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 01:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

We have information that Suny has never published a book review and had responded Brenda Shaffer in a critical way. As she is a master of it, Brenda Shaffer has used it out of its context and claims that she has a positive book reviwe. Also this adds to the controversial charachter of Brenda Shaffer. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 10:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

This email confirms that the review exists. If anyone has any other context from it, he can add it to the article, but claiming that it is non-existent or whatever is POV. Also, e-mail cannot be a source for Wikipedia, even if I have no doubt that it exists. We can use only published sources. Grandmaster (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the portion taken is not part of the review but a blurb as mentioned. To call it a portion of a book review is original research. Of course E-mail can not be necessarily taken as a source, but the admins can confirm its veracity. Anyhow, a blurb is different than a book review. Also the statement of Full Prof. Suny like full Professors Lurker, Atabi and Siegel is a reminder why the former post-doc and now consultant Shaffer's book is unreliable. Besides the fact that she has no academic position ) and hence can not be considered an academic source (like Suny or Swietchowski) or neutral source, up for Wikipedia standard. The comments of Suny exist in the talkpage for those who are interested.

Babak maybe you will look into the issue when you have time. I'll try to get a copy of the actual unpublished book review and comments of Prof. Suny although his reply came after a week or so. God bless honesty. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ali, I quote your own post of Suny's email:

I read the Shaffer ms for the press and gave a CRITICAL review of the book, etc

So there was a review? In any case, I agree that it is better to find the full text of Suny's review to use in the article. Grandmaster (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Right there was a review. But that portion in Amazon is not from the book review, but a blurb. I'll try to get the review. Regards.--alidoostzadeh (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no review. Suny said that he was asked to write a review, but he wrote a CRITICAL blurb, and as these people are famous about it, they took some words out of its context and represented them as if prof. Suny was positive about Brenda Shaffer's book--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

BLP

The most recent edits on the page by Greiwood seriously violate WP:BLP, particularly the following:

• Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone.
• Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States and to all of our content policies, especially WP:NPOV, WP:Verifiability, WP:NOR.

So please, follow the rules. Atabəy (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The article is in full compliance with WP:BLP standards. Greiwood (talk) 12:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The article is not in compliance with WP:BLP, hence some interpretations were removed. Evan Siegel for example is a math teacher in Ramaz School in New York, see his own webpage. His Ph.D. is in Math, how does this make him worth 2 paragraphs on article about Brenda Shaffer? There is clearly an attempt to defame the name of a scholar by certain editors inserting such POV. Please, do follow WP:BLP, WP:NPOV in further edits. Atabəy (talk) 00:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The review has been published in WP:RS source (citation of the journal provided in my recent edit to the article). So it obviously stays as it meets WP:RS. Even Siegel has a Math background but he also a writer in the area and is published in journals and has translated books. His middle eastern resume is very impressive [6] and if anything, he understands the following language with good proficiency: "Persian, French, Arabic, Turkish, Biblical Hebrew, Russian, German, Georgian" which is also a necessity for anyone who studies the region's history. So one expertise does not disualify his other expertise and there are many people that are experts in more than one field. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Incididently the stuff from Suny is a Amazon Blurb and blubrs according to Wikipedia are not considered reliable and independent book reviews and they have been taken out of various article. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 23:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Evan Siegel is an excellent scholar on the Middle East.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Nepaheshgar, interestingly, Suny's opinion became irrelevant, although it was a response to your email. What happened? Evan Siegel is not even a math professor at a university, he is teaching at community school (meaning high school) in New Jersey. His "research on Middle East" is not based on any professional background but on freelance/hobby. Posting his review of a degreed professional, like Brenda Shaffer, is laughable if not outright ridiculous. Atabəy (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

First, Shaffer is not a Professor but a lecturer. [7]. Note it is Dr. and not Professor under her name. Second, Evan Siegel is an assistant Professor in Math in NJCU (which is not a high school) [8][9].

All of that stuff is irrelavant. What matters is if someone is published in the area. [10] [11] From the viewpoint of the review, it is published in an WP:RS peer-reviewed journal. Also note he is on editorial boards on journals published in the republic of Azerbaijan and have to do with social sciense [12] from Khazar university.

However to go take it one step further, if it was not necessary (which it is not), Dr. Shaffer thanks Professor. Evan Siegel in the foreward of her book and also references him in her book. Obviously what you call a "Degrees Professional" would not be referencing what you call a "high school teacher" if she is writing a "professional book". All these comments are unnecssary though as I am not here to talk or have a discussion. What matters in the end is WP:RS and if the author is published in area or the source is a high quality journal or if the author is referenced in books and etc., which he is in both google scholar and google books. Thats it and nothing more. As per Suny's opinion, a blurb is not allowed in Wikipedia as it is not an independent source. Also I rather not quote my correspondence with him in an article although they have been forwarded to admins and can be verified if there is any doubt. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Alireza Asgharzade

Alireza Asgharzade, a sociologist, has serious conflict of interest issues with the subject of this article. Besides that, he's seriously confused about Iranian Aryanism and Nazi Aryanizm. Lida Vorig (talk) 01:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

BLP issues

BLP issues have been discussed for a long time about this article. I've finally just gone and changed it quickly, then we can have a discussion about how to best adjust it from here. the WP;BLP policy is one of the most strict we have and doesn't leave any room for unsourced statements or statements without high quality sourcing. I took out the Harpers review since that is not remotely of the academic quality of the other reviews available. If Professor Asgharzade has some conflicts of interest, thos should be made clear, with sourcing. Otherwise, as an academic, his review is higher reliability as a source. I'm certainly open to different sources, but the goal is ending up with an article that reflects what the highest quality sources available have to say about the subject. - Taxman ^Talk 13:54, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I am sorry, but Ken Silverstein and Harper's Magazine are perfectly in line with our policy on reliable sources. But if you disagree, your own judgment does not settle the issue , and community input should be sought either through RFC or reliable sources noticeboard. We can not use BLP as a cover, to censor valid criticism backed by high quality sourcing. Also, Asgharzadeh`s academic qualification or lack thereof are besides the point here (he is actually a lecturer who advocates fringe theories, he says Turks existed in 6000 BC in the Near East), a weblog hosted on BlogSpot cannot be cited or used a verifiable source on Wikipedia no matter what, the verifiability policy is clear on this. This also is a moot point, as an interview is not a review, and has no place under reviews section regardless. Kurdo777 (talk) 03:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Not enough critical context

The author's beliefs and theories about the history of Iran are about as credible as Hitler claiming Nordics are the master race and Saddam Hussein claiming that Persians and Jews are the spawn of Satan. This goes beyond historical revisionism - her theories are squarely in the realm of historical denialism. So there needs to be more critical context. Also parts of the article are written like a resume and the reviews section is too much of a list and goes against the manual of style so the article should be edited to conform to the standard style for books. Laval (talk) 07:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Answer to Laval: The controversies surrounding Shaffer's stance on Iran are well documented in the article. The headline "controversy" provides four critical quotes from different scholars and publicists regarding this matter. I believe this is more than enough critical context. Keep in mind that the author's main preoccupation (and most publications) deal with a different subject - energy politics - and so the weight given in this article to her beliefs on Iranian history and culture is already too much. Elairettig (talk) 16:29, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Mentioning NYT Failure to Disclose

I understand that it is more favorable to Brenda Shaffer if the controversy in the New York Times is only mentioned in one sentence at the very end of the piece, as by the edits of Elairettig. However, Shaffer's failure to disclose has now been the subject of significant coverage, including in Radio Free Europe, Huffington Post, and in a piece by the Public Editor of the New York Times (disclosure: the NYT mentions me personally). This information about her merits inclusion, otherwise is too close to providing merely a one-sided positive piece.

Specifically to user ElaiRettig -- as Brenda Shaffer's PhD student (according to LinkedIn), you should NOT be editing this page to make it more favorable to her and eliminate well-referenced information that is less favorable to her. That is not NPOV by any standard, and you have a CoI. By all means, Shaffer's achievements deserve to be highlighted, but readers need access to concerns about her work (and her failure to disclose) as well. (Hundnase (talk) 08:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC))

To user Hundase -- There is no argument that this issue has received notable coverage and merits inclusion in this Wikipedia page, but it hardly merits such a significant mention in the very introduction to the page. The introduction is meant to give a general overview of the person in question, yet half of it is now dedicated to a specific event. There have been other events in Brenda's career that have caught much more attention than this one, and that is why there is an appropriate sub-section titled "controversy". If you wish, you can move the issue of the New York Times article to the head of that subsection. It is in the end simply because the events are organized chronologically. No references were cut and I don't feel the issue was "sugar-coated" in any way. I am more than happy to bring in a Wikipedia editor to decide on this dispute. I think he will see merit in moving the issue out of the introduction part as I did.

as to the issue of my affiliation. I did not hide the fact that prof. Brenda Shaffer is my Phd supervisor. I used my full name in my Wikipedia account and my affiliation is plainly mentioned in my linkedin profile (which is publicly viewable). However, I would like to stress that I am not editing this page on behalf of Brenda or on her request, but of my own conviction. This issue is important to me because I have knowledge of it, and of the persons involved. I am also best suited to update this page because I keep track of prof. Shaffer's publications, affiliations, and controversies. The page has not been updated in over a year before I took a look in it, and I decided to update it. If this breaks Wikipedia rules, or misleads in any way, than I apologize. (elairettig (talk) 23:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC))

To eliarettig. You clearly have a CoI, as the subject is your supervisor, a figure that holds extraordinary power over the progress of your career. You should NOT be editing this page. You could raise the concerns on the Talk page, but editing is not in order. The Wikipedia entry is NOT the chosen biography, but should reflect a NPOV.

As to the introduction: Shaffer by now has become notable (NYT retraction, RFE/RL piece, Huffington Post, NYT Public Editor comment)<ref>{{cite news|last1=Sullivan|first1=Margaret|title=Hidden Interests Closer to Home|url=http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/09/21/public-editor/new-york-times-public-editor-on-conflicts-of-interest.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&referrer|accessdate=1 October 2014|date=September 20, 2014}}</ref> precisely for failing to disclose her affiliations. This information is externally sourced. It is mentioned in notable publications. Next to her academic work, Shaffer now is known to people precisely for having failed to disclose. Arguably, she may even be more prominent in that regard. It's understandable that this information is not flattering to her and associates, but given it's notability it is at least as important as other aspects in the introduction. Right now, the introduction is clearly overly flattering.

This is also concern throughout the piece, that it reads more like a favorable biography.

I would very much welcome others to come in on this issue, as I believe that notability clearly merits inclusion in the introduction. (Hundnase (talk) 05:24, 1 October 2014 (UTC))

To Hundnase, I think you are grossly overstating the impact of this recent event. I highly disagree that Shaffer is now "known to people for having failed to disclose her affiliation". I think you have some personal dispute here that you should not let interfere with the matter at hand. There is no argument that this issue has received publicity (a report in Radio Free and a blog post in Huff Post), but this still does not merit a mention in the very introduction of the page. It is an isolated case that merits mention and references in her page, but I disagree that it is a "defining event in her career" that merits inclusion in the introduction. I think you are influenced by the fact that this event happened only recently and is still fresh, but in terms of actual "definition of one's career", this should find a more proper place within the page.

As to my personal affiliation, I once again state that I plainly said who I am. However, I do not know who you are, or what is your affiliation. It does seem that you have some personal dispute in the matter because you are very keen to highlight the event as much as you can. I think that if you were objective to the matter, than you would clearly see that the introduction is not the appropriate place to put this event.

I second your suggestion of bringing others to weigh-in on the dispute. I would prefer that an official Wikipedia editor would do it. One that is impartial. (elairettig (talk) 12:33, 01 October 2014 (UTC))

I think the fact that Brenda Shaffer is a paid lobbyist of the Azerbaijani government and that she does not typically disclose that affiliation in academic and media setting is fairly well established. Many have agreed, thus establishing some level of editorial consensus. There are many citations for that. It seems odd that it keeps getting deleted. I suspect an edit war with a specific political agenda is on the hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:C300:1F3:946:13CA:9FA1:665C (talk) 23:31, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Brenda Shaffer/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

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I followed the dispute on Prof. Suny and decided to E-mail him myself. Overall, I lost interested in this topic, since Shaffer is now a consultant and does not have a serious Academia position. But here are the response and conversation: "Dear Dr. Suny It says over here that you gave a positive over allview of Brenda Shaffer's book. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brenda_Shaffer&oldid=176337711 Would you happen to have the whole review? Response: Dear Mr. Doostzadeh: I read the Shaffer ms for the press and gave a CRITICAL review of the book, advised her to make several changes and additions, worried about the pro- Azerbaijani tilt of the book, but I also thought that she had made some headway into the question of Iranian-Azeri relations. I never wrote a published review of the book. That quotation is taken from my blurb on the book’s cover. Ron Suny Ronald Grigor Suny Charles Tilly Collegiate Professor of Social and Political Histor The University of Michigan " Note I did not capitalize the word CRITICAL, but Prof. Suny did. I can forward the E-mail to anyone and Admins. I hope the above response helps, at least it will remain in the talkpage for other users.

Substituted at 00:57, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

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Evan Siegel

Evan Siegel is not a reliable source on this subject. He is not a professional historian, he is a professor of mathematics with no formal training in history. He has some publications in the field of the Middle Eastern history as a hobby, but that does not make him an expert in this field. He might be a reliable source on mathematics, but certainly not history. This is a WP:BLP article, and we should only use the best quality sources, and amateur historians clearly do not comply with WP:RS requirements. Grandmaster 16:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)