Talk:Bosque Andino Patagónico

English name

Is there any English name for these forests? If so that should be the title. Dentren | ^Talk 19:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

We have been discussing this on my talk page. This is a work in progress, and I will probably remove the Habitat section, which was translated from the Spanish Wikipedia, as the other sourced sections expand. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 20:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It appears that an Engish name is "Cool temperate Nothofagus forests and woodlands" if one reads pages 221 and 222 in the book Physical Geography of South America.Dentren | ^Talk 08:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I would not favour that name, which brings up about 3 results when used as a search term on Google. If an English name is required, I would prefer "Patagonian Andean forests". Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:06, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I see the use of "Patagonian Andean forests" problematic since to use this name without reliable sources that establishcan very well be original research.

The forests in question are not very known outside Chile and Argentina (unlike for the Taiga for example) we can not expect many "Google hits". Nothofagus expert Thomas T. Veblen who has published much work on Chilean and Argentine temperate forests since the 1970s (collaborating among other with Claudio Donoso) uses the term.

Cutting "Cool temperate Nothofagus forests and woodlands" into "Cool temperate Nothofagus forests" yields 200+ results in Google. (Anyway "Google hits" is not a good way to establish the most proper name). Dentren | ^Talk 10:33, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

They are called the "Southern Andes forests" in this book. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:10, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

In that book climatologist Ricardo Villalba and his coworker are referring to all of the temperate forests south of the Arid Diagonal by stating the forest limits to the north with the Chilean matorral and runs from the Pacific to the Patagonian steppe. Thus their "Southern Andes Forest" encompass Valdivian temperate rainforest and Magellanic subpolar forests besides the Andean forests this article covers. Dentren | ^Talk 13:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I find this discussion and substantiations very useful. As I'm inexperienced in this field, I cannot say much except Google hits :), but I think it will be great if you (Cwmhiraeth, Dentren, Chiswick Chap) can invite some expert (mostly involved in similar topics) editors and involve them in this discussion. Cwmhiraeth has been diligently creating a nice article. Now the article deserves a proper name (present one or another). Cheers! --Hanberke (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I think we are talking at cross purposes here. The forest that is the subject of the article and is called "Bosque Andino Patagónico" is all the temperate forests south of the Arid Diagonal and includes the Valdivian temperate rainforest as one of its four regions. This source is about the forests written with regard to Chile and this one with regard to Argentina. They largely describe the same forests and regions. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 19:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

For the forests this article is attempting to cover I am inclined to use Thomas T. Veblen's descriptor "Temperate Forests of the Southern Andean Region" (in Physical Geography of South America [note the series of books Physical Geography of.. published by Oxford University Press have its chapters writen by handpicked scholars..]). Veblen is a respected expert writing in English. Dentren | ^Talk 19:42, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no particular views on the name. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I will investigate the proper English name and propose a name change then. Dentren | ^Talk 19:45, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Name review

Searching for name for these forests I have summarized the following candidate names and their problems.

Name	Notes
Bosque Andino Patagónico	Current name. Problems: 1) Spanish name 2) Apparent Argentine perspective since much of these forest lies in extra-Patagonian extra-Andean parts of Chile
Patagonian Andean forests	Problems: 1) WP:OR 2) Apparent Argentine perspective since much of these forest lies in extra-Patagonian extra-Andean parts of Chile
Southern Andes/Andean forests	Problems: Used in some sources but without specifying the meaning. In these sources it could very well mean a specific forest type and the whole.
Temperate Forests of the Southern Andean Region	Used by relevant authority Thomas T. Veblen in the authoritative work Physical Geography of South America. Problems: Not used elsewhere.

WWF list two forest biomes instead of one for southern Chile and Argentina. Because this distinction is presumably accepted and because there is no consensus name for the sum I would think the best is to split up this article following a biome approach. Dentren | ^Talk 19:25, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the analysis but not with your conclusion. My reading of the data is that there is no consensus to change the name, and that Bosque Andino Patagónico is in fact not just the "current name" but the established name. WWF may have chosen to split this by nation, but that may just be their way of doing things, in the absence of evidence to the contrary. It seems to me that we have no mandate to use any new name, as the old one is in use and not ambiguous. If you think any of the new names are common enough to be used as redirects, then create them by all means, nobody will complain. All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:27, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with Chiswick Chap. I had created two such redirects already. Bosque Andino Patagónico is not an "established English" name, it is clearly in Spanish, no doubt for that. Dr. Blofeld (or another Spanish wiki user) added this term as a red link (absent article) in WikiProject Intertranswiki in it SPANISH form (just to be localized IMHO). You can see other red linked article in various languages in that project. So, it will be better to localize it into English as "Patagonian Andean forests". Ex. "Andean Patagonian forests" - 1980 Google hits, where "Patagonian Andean forests" - 5070 Google hits. Hanberke (talk) 15:49, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but the trouble with that is that it is a place in a Spanish region, and the type of forest simply has a Spanish name, while (unfortunately) lists of google hits don't prove anything - perhaps people go to the forests to cut timber, or other things nothing to do with ecology. These are actually really quite small numbers of hits too ("black forest" gets 134,000,000 hits). I think we should have a name that is recognised in the government's documentation; at the very least, that should be a redirect, and I rather think it should be the primary name, given that nothing else really has any kind of status. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:58, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I am glad we are having this discussion. I hope nobody entreeches herself too much so we can reach consensus. As for clarification thw WWF does list two biomes for the forests of southern Chiel and southern Argentina, but do (obviously) not divide them by political boundaries such that both biomes are present in Chile and Argentina one being more southern than the other. Otherwise WWF does not seem to have distinctive names for these biomes...

Chispwick's suggestion of using government documentation to establish the name might be useful (supposing that documentation is in English), in this sence I have to warn that Chilean documentation, as far I know it, do not use the name "Bosque Andino Patagónico" or any name with "Patagonian" for these forests. So far I am concerned the distinct forests (Valdivian temprate rainforest, Magellanic subpolar forest, Cool temperate Nothofagus forests) are treated separately and rarely in a bulk manner. In this article we might be dealing with a zone of contiguous forests that is rarely treated a whole. Let me take an example of what might be an analogy: the Sarmatic mixed forests and the Taiga might form part of a contiguous zone of forest in northern Eurasia. They share many key tree types (birches, pines, spruces) but are still rarely discussed in the literature as unit. The case with what is here compacted into "Bosque Andino Patagónico" might be similar. Dentren | ^Talk 18:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 21 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Proposed title created as a redirect. Jenks24 (talk) 13:14, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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Bosque Andino Patagónico → Temperate Forests of the Southern Andean Region – Article names are to be in English if there is an English name. Title is precise, neutral verifiable and not original. The proposed name is used by relevant authority Thomas T. Veblen in an authoritatve work (see discussion above). Despite its shortcomings Wikipedia policy make this name more adecuated than the current name because this last is in Spanish is not even unanimously used in Spanish (not referred by that name in Chile). This move is meant to based on "the best name we have with current evidence". Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 19:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC) Dentren | ^Talk 19:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I agree with the intention of the proposal. However, given Temperate Forests of the Southern Andean Region is only used once in the literature, it might be best to keep the current name, given it's by far the most used (even in scientific literature in other languages), it being in Spanish notwithstanding (see WP:EN and WP:NCGN). Regards, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment: it could be helpful if you showed what English literature uses this name. I am sceptic. Dentren | ^Talk 08:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

See Podestá, Maria Mercedes, et al. "Arte rupestre en pasos cordilleranos del bosque andino patagónico (El Manso, Región de Los Lagos y Provincia de Río Negro, Chile-Argentina)." Magallania (Punta Arenas) 36.2 (2008): 143-153; Scheinsohn, V., and S. Matteucci. "Spaces and species: archaeology, landscape ecology and spatial models in northern Patagonia." Before Farming2004.1 (2004): 1-11; Greslebin, Alina G., et al. "Phytophthora species from declining Austrocedrus chilensis forests in Patagonia, Argentina." Mycologia 97.1 (2005): 218-228; Pastur, Guillermo J. Martínez, et al. "Response of nothofagus betuloides (mirb.) oersted to different thinning intensities in tierra del fuego, argentina."INTERCIENCIA-CARACAS- 27.12 (2002): 679-685; Gonzalez, Patricia. "Two new species of Eriococcus (Hemiptera: Coccoidea: Eriococcidae), from the Andino Patagonica region of Argentina, with a key to the Eriococcus species of that region." Zootaxa 1899 (2008): 50-56; Marchioretto, Maria Salete, Paulo Günter Windisch, and Josafá Carlos de Siqueira. "Padrões de distribuição geográfica das espécies de Froelichia Moench e Froelichiella RE Fries (Amaranthaceae) no Brasil." Iheringia Série Botânica 59.2 (2014), etc. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:24, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

• @Dr. Blofeld, Cwmhiraeth, Hanberke, Chiswick Chap, Dentren, and FoCuSandLeArN: I'm giving this a relist a pinging editors involved in previous discussions (either on this talk page or at Cwmhiraeth's talk) about the title in the hope we can get a few more opinions and develop a consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 14:11, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I created the article at the end of May and am unconcerned with what its title is as long as the other names redirect to it. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:53, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it doesn't matter a lot. I think the move is not necessary as the current name is in use and also helpfully descriptive. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:10, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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