Talk:Borscht/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Beetenbartsch

There was also an East Prussian German variant of Borscht, named Beetenbartsch. It was a classic of East Prussian cuisine. The main difference to other varieties, as far as I can see, is that the beetroot was steamed seperately, then peeled, grated and mixed with sugar and vinegar, before being added to the soup. And the meat, beef in this case, was cooked in one piece, and only diced when done. I'm 1/4 East Prussian from my paternal grandmother's side BTW, but I'm also totally pro-Ukrainian.31.24.11.129 (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

So, the "russian" beet borscht isn't Russian, but Prussian in nature? That is quite a curio! That finally explains the lolzorz behind Taivo's uncapitalized word "russian": it was a reference to the cuisine of Prussia! Danke schon! 109.252.68.186 (talk) 17:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Don't blame me, Taivo was the first to start it. Seriously, though, this recipe looks a bit too modern, since added sugar is used to sweeten the soup. However, the recipe looks like something classic, something like honey could be used to sweeten the beet. 109.252.68.186 (talk) 02:57, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Sweetened beet? That's... an interesting way to make a beet soup. I would love to see its recipe (Something tells me it was originally supposed to use sugar beet). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Jewish Borscht

Can some add some photos of the Jewish variations of borscht, please? 2A00:1370:81A2:44EB:7021:6CE4:68C6:3C7E (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is very strict on uploading photos to prevent any possible copyright issues. Sometimes it rejects original photos for that very reason, just in case 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

The World of Russian Borsch

One of the paragraphs says: "The World of Russian Borsch". I wonder if that's a typo, since "sch" is, basically, a Deutsch styled way to spell "sh". 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:17, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

"sch" is the usual spelling in English because the word "borscht" was borrowed from Yiddish, which has its origins in German. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:44, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Mind if I add the missing "t", though? Some Russians would draw a line between "борщ" and "борш"(borš). 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:00, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

"Vienna sausages"

In USSR era, the word associated with "Vienna" sausages - "sosiski", derived from French saucisse - was actually used for any long, but small sausage. Ergo: Swiss style cervelat or Hungarian style debrecener would be "sosiski" in Russian terminology. Therefore, I object against slapping "Vienna sausages" for both Lviv recipe and Moscow recipe, replacing both with "sausages similar to the style of Vienna sausages". Профессор кислых щей. For example, "Povar.ru says "sausage products" are supposed to be added to Moscow borscht instead of regular meat. It literally says "Из множества рецептов борща есть и "Московский борщ". Отличается от обычного только тем, что кроме мяса в него кладут колбасные изделия. Это может быть ветчина, копченая колбаса, сосиски." - ham, smoked sausages or saucisse; therefore, it ain't "and Vienna sausages". Профессор кислых щей (talk) 13:53, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

barszcz

Does "barszcz" actually appear with any frequency in English usage?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:41, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Please don't underestimate the willingness Slavs express upon learning English: it varies. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 10:46, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with Slavs learning English as a second language. The names in the intro should be those used by native English speakers. Otherwise, any article on the English Wikipedia could have almost limitless foreign names listed.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

"barszcz" is definitely not a word used in English. It is, at best, a Polish word that slips into English text written by Polish speakers, but if we count that as an English word, then the dictionary of English would be limitless including every foreign word used by every foreign language speaker. My wife is Ukrainian and she cooks "plov" [plof]. We don't add that to the English dictionary just because one Ukrainian (and, by extension anyone who eats her cooking) uses that term to label pilaf. More definitively, the word "barszcz" does not occur in the Oxford English Dictionary. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 13:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

That's what I thought. I have removed the mention from in the intro. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:27, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

According to NYTimes, it is alright to use "barszcz" spelling to denote the Polish background of a recipe. Besides, Khajidha seems to be unwilling to pay attention to the Ethymology section of the article. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 06:53, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Etymologies, including those in Wikipedia, are not evidence of English usage, they are evidence of the history of a word whether after its entry into English or prior to it. Barszcz has never entered English vocabulary despite its importance in the pre-English history of the word borscht. Claiming that just because a form occurs in the pre-English history of the word justifies its inclusion in the lead as if it were an English word shows a lack of understanding of what an etymology is. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Good point, thanks. Trick is, some exquisite dishes have foreign names on purpose. Say, flan vs creme caramel vs flan cake... because the "flan cake" article, as it seems, was made by a Filipino editor far away from Europe and America, so that's "an exception that confirms the general rule", as Russians joke sometimes. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 09:03, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

We certanly can agree a creme caramel phrase distinguishes condiment (sweet flans) from plain pies ("regular" flans). 2A00:1370:81A2:4AE2:B82D:F8DD:FA08:9A8 (talk) 11:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Renaming the "History" section to clarify "Precursors" versus "Ultimate Beet-based"

Borscht in English is beet-based, but it did not spring fully-formed from the brain of Zeus. The current "History" section is seriously too long and covers every minor variant of boiling hogweed in water. Separating the "History" section into something like "precursors" and "beet-based" seems to make a lot of sense. TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah; besides, the historical section describes Soviet borscht and its evolution; as well as a bunch of exquisite rare soups made possible by 19th century Russian Empire's fashion.

All of that could have been used to decorate the section on Russian variants of borscht with beets, as these pre-1917 soups are ... well, a product of the age of empires.

The same goes to Coated Herring salad, it's stuck with Cold Borscht from Lituhanian era, although it's a zakuska invented in pre-1917 Moscow 2A00:1370:81A2:DC7:202E:9C15:7FD3:AF27 (talk) 19:30, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

I dunno. If you really want to "move" stuff from "History", try creating a subection for variants invented in pre-1910's Russian Empire (say, "haute cuisine" borscht). Also, I like the "precursors" word. Thank you for bringing this up. 2A00:1370:81A2:DC7:5578:ECE8:9655:9C24 (talk) 18:53, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Since 2021, I had something to add to that section.

1. In modern, XXI century Russia, some housewives rediscover vinegar as an ingredient of cheap mayo. I think it counts as a noveau etoile for tart borschts in Russia. Even if it looks ridiculous, it's actually a tasty addition.
2. Like I said long ago, Encyclopedia Domashnego Hozyaistva treats vinegar and tomato puree as something optional for a non-national recipe, although "Cold borscht" and "Ukrainian styled borscht" are supposed to be soured with vinegar. I think it okay to say ex-Soviet Russians make soups with the beets, yet without the tartness as a "variation".

81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:19, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

• OK, that was not really relevant. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect claim Renaming or Separating? Профессор кислых щей (talk) 05:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

It's a proposal to look at alternatives and possibilities. It's a proposal to "clarify" without suggesting the solution. No one has made any real suggestions yet, just a somewhat irrelevant content sidetrack. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:30, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

So...

>My proposal (totally scrubbing-free): History - Origins section should be renamed as History - Precursors

How about combining "origin" and "diversification" into a "historical precursors" (sub)section? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:59, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I had had a rather mild before you starkly told me off (WP:CONSENSUS, because non-beety is obscure). And, honestly, that's where my new suggestion comes from. Try "Other "borschts"", please, in place of that awkward "variants without beets". Taivo, can you please add this small tweak? 109.252.69.174 (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

THE NON-LIPRA LOOF REASON: what's important, the word "variant" looks as a "modification" (of an existing beet-based borscht) or a "following version" (with beets replaced with something else on purpose). But the "Other borschts" will look like this: "hey, there's more than you expect to see about the world borscht_s". 109.252.69.174 (talk) 18:39, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

The issue is that "borscht" in English is beet-based, so any discussion of other things has to be clear that it's not what English speakers recognize as "borscht". I agree that "variants" makes it sound like they developed from borscht, which is beet-based, but we need to be clear that these things are not called "borscht" in English, but only in the languages of the nations where they are found. Perhaps instead of "Variants", "Related Soups" would be a better form--they are soups that are related to borscht, but aren't "borscht". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:39, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for you reply, Taivo. Now, instead of "precise" thinking...Brainstormey tyme!

1. Alternative borschts.

2. The no-beet class(es) of borscht.

3. Rare family of no-beet borshts.

4. Beetless.

5. Pre-beet and non-beet classes of borscht.

6. The rarer types.

7. Non-purple

8. Sour-centered

9. Acid over beet

10. Pre-trendy threads

11. Other, obscure "borschts"

12. The variety of borschts without beets

13. Every other namesake soup

14. The class of borscht that has no beets

15. Co-existing soups

16. Outside of the beet soup

17. Atypicals

18. Aside from the beet soup

19. Hogweed era legacy

20. The legacy of the hogweed soup

I think the numBers 2 and 18 look interesting.

Now, with the related word:

21. Related class of soups

21 but w/synonym. Related types of soups

22. Related to the beet soup

23. Related atypical soups

23+1. Related soups of different types.

25. Related legacy soups

26. Related soups outside of the class of beet borscht

27. Related different kinds of soups

28. Similar historically related soups

29. Partially related soups

30. Less-known related soups

31. Historically related soups

32. Namesakes and related dishes (not "soups", purposefully. Just in case some obscure "borscht" will be too hearty and thick...)

Thank you again for taking your time! 109.252.69.174 (talk) 18:55, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Wrong.

33. Independent namesake soups

34. [this field intentionally left blank]

35. Namesakes without beets. Simpul as. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 07:46, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

For salesmen and car mechanics, "variants" sound like a synonym for "modifications" of item X. I guess that settles it. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 10:27, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for coming up with some common ground. It used to irk me too yet I had no way to explain it. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:10, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Once again, it indeed used to irk me how pan-Slavic "hogweed borscht" is a part of "origin" section, yet that "origin" notion in the beginning of the page says "Ukraine", hence causing 2 different "origins". Guess I will have to stick to exquisite, posher-that-posh language to pre-emptively extinguish awkward quarrels over namesake entities. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I think now, a beet soup with sour cream could have been a vinegret-based soup though. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:06, 27 June 2023 (UTC) Actually, it doesn't really matter. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:10, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Multiple gallery

This artcile needs a gallery or a "multiple picture" template like this one:

Example 1 (Radio article)

Example 2 (Radio article)

Example 3 (Radio article)

Профессор кислых щей (talk) 12:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Done 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:39, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Confusing the origins. And where's the consensus?

Apparently, if you visit archived talk pages with a PC, and use ctrl+f command to find "consensus" word, there will be no proper info on the origins of borscht. Popular modern borscht with beets, on the contrary, is brought too many times. Apparently, TaivoLinguist makes a repetitive error per WP:IDHT, confusing two distantly related entities. As for November 2022, we can clearly see there is a long gap between the original, ancient hogweed borscht and the modern beet "borscht" borscht.

In this sense, borscht is both is and isn't originating in Ukraine or "what now is Ukraine", as its origin seems to be lost in ages

This complication is common for food and drinks. Say, modern beer requires hop to be "beer" beer. Ancient kinds of beer, on the other hand, already existed around 3000 B.C. and counting.

Recommended course of action: remove the "country of origin" bar for borscht just to avoid further confusion. 2A00:1FA0:46E7:C1B6:0:51:E6B3:5901 (talk) 23:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

"Consensus" in Wikipedia is not always accompanied by the actual word "consensus" so a simplistic search for the word in order to demonstrate consensus is not always successful (probably only rarely in my long experience here). The consensus, supported by reliable sources (both from Ukrainian and Russian sources) points to Ukraine. In English, "borscht" is made from beetroot, so it is perfectly appropriate that the article on "borscht" focus on the modern beetroot definition of the word. The argument that "beetroot borscht comes from something else" is misleading. We could carry that argument forward to the point that "borscht comes from the first time that a woman boiled plant matter mixed with a little meat to make a soup" back in primordial history. Everything comes from something else, there is virtually nothing created ex nihilo. All those things that are called "borsch" (a word that in Proto-Slavic basically meant "soup") in Eastern Europe are not what is meant by the English word "borscht". This is the English Wikipedia, after all. Demanding that pre-borscht varieties of hogweed soup be considered as "confusing" to marking the origin of "borscht" in Ukraine is equivalent to saying that Joe Biden was not born in Scranton, Pennsylvania because his ancestors were born somewhere else. Too many reliable sources to ignore point to the Ukrainian origins of what English speakers know as "borscht". The other things called "borsch" by Europeans in languages that are not English are precedents for "borscht", but they are not what the English word refers to. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:39, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Which exactly bar are you talking about? Borscht is not supposed to be an alcoholic beverage ;)

Sure, there is a bar-like resturant in Sochi, Russia, named "Borsch" [sic]. But could you please be more specific? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be either confused or inconsistent. A note how "borsch" is "a word that in Proto-Slavic basically meant "soup" is not really a thing; instead, there was Proto-Slavic bŭrščǐ, which legit means "hogweed". As for you claim, "In English, "borscht" is made from beetroot"... well beets are merely a novel ingredient for already existing borscht. What do you mean by saying "The argument that "beetroot borscht comes from something else" is misleading"? You appear to disrupt my point by substituting entities, essentially creating straw man arguments. The discussions on beets in borscht you tried to start should be cut short. Apparently, there is WP:IDHT indeed, as well as bias towards beets and beet soups. For example, in one of the archived topics, you have a claim how borscht cannot be Polish because it's "barszcz". I still hope you did not mean to resort to whataboutism with the "is equivalent to saying that Joe Biden was not born in Scranton, Pennsylvania because his ancestors were born somewhere else" analogy. I still hope you mixed things up a bit upon writing "Demanding that pre-borscht varieties of hogweed soup be considered as "confusing" to marking the origin of "borscht" in Ukraine". As for October 2022, there's a chronology on the developing of borscht dishes. "Origin", "Diversification", and only then, "Novel ingredients". Besides, I wouldn't expect a linguist to confuse singular and plural unless there's "the heat of a moment" rush. Same goes to bringing out the idea of mixing beets and meats all of a sudden: that's also a straw man, because I was talking about the hogweed concoction. By the way, not only the ancient fermented hogweed soup/hogweed kvass from the "Origins" section was the first dish to get a name that means borscht, but there's Polish borscht as well, the aforementioned barszcz biały, comes before the "novel ingredients" section era. As for "We could carry that argument", please don't do it. The implications there's only one family of borschts, the beet borscht and its subkinds, would have some validity if there were "Borscht" trademark popular product in question, and its flankers. At this rate I fear I would see a consensus on how soda, a.k.a. fizzy pop originates from Atlanta, Georgia one day, per Coca-cola being the most prominent kind of it, and not Jacob Schweppe's initial invention of water carbonation device; because there would be an argument that referring to Jacob Schweppe would "carry that argument" to the first person to ever taste a water with added sodium in it; not even naturally created carbonated water, but water with sodium. 2A00:1FA0:4817:FB7A:0:B:AC6E:C701 (talk) 03:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You don't really address any of the points I made since you don't seem to understand that this is the English Wikipedia and the primary focus of this article is on what "borscht" means in English and the English-speaking world, not on a history of what various Slavic words for hogweed soup mean in Eastern Europe. Their history can serve as a background for the origins of borscht, but the word "borscht" in English means first and foremost the beetroot soup that originated in Ukraine. Your quibbling about how I used a general English word to cover the various Slavic forms is a red herring. The point isn't the details of Polish or Lithuanian or Czech spelling or the finely tuned reconstructed Proto-Slavic form. The point is that the word "borscht" in English (remember that this is the English Wikipedia) means "beetroot soup". It might have developed from something else in Eastern Europe (remember my comment about nearly everything comes from something else), but the meaning of the word in English isn't that "something else", but is the beetroot soup, therefore stating that its origin is in Ukraine is perfectly correct and unambiguous. You also clearly didn't understand the topic of the comment in which I said that Polish "barszcz" couldn't be the origin of "borscht". That comment, as I remember, was in a context of a discussion of the origin of the word "borscht" and had nothing to do with the origin of the soup. The word "borscht" comes from Yiddish, of course, not Polish (and not Ukrainian either). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:54, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

It appears your idea of English-speaking world somehow does not include, well, the world. To this day, people across the world study English as a compulsory subject; and computers are really easy to use now. Simply put, not only a Japanese student "speaking" wasei-eigo can make sense of English texts; but also a child from Bangladesh can access English Wikipedia with a new cheap smartphone and some magic of automatic translation. In fact, I am using a smarty right now as well, with its keyboard being enough to type this. I understand how you are adamant on how borscht is expected to be full of beets, but without the sourness, a beet soup is not a borscht. Answer me this: beet soup is "beet soup", simple as. 2A00:1FA0:46B8:7F5F:0:63:1F63:DC01 (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You still misunderstand. The word "borscht" in English refers to a beetroot soup, "sourness" is irrelevant. I know that in Eastern European languages there is a great deal of fine-tuned differentiation, but that is for the Eastern European language Wikipediae. It's sort of like the difference between "gulyas" in Hungarian and "goulash" in English. They are quite different things even though the English word is a loanword from Hungarian. I just looked up the word "borscht" in my American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language and found as the very first words following "borscht": "A beet soup served hot or cold, usually with sour cream." There is no mention whatsoever of anything else. That's the full definition. The Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition defines "borsch" as "A Russian [sic] soup of several ingredients, esp. beetroot and cabbage." The English word "borscht" is intimately tied to those good old red beetroots. It doesn't matter if the Polish or Belarusian or Latvian words mean other combinations of ingredients, this is still the English language Wikipedia and the English word "borscht" has a different reference that doesn't necessarily match the words in Slavic languages just as the English word "goulash" has a radically different reference than the word in Hungarian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Come to think of Bangladesh, there's a grand soup on par with borscht, Thais' tom yum soup. It is "labelled" as something originating from Thailand. If you read more, you'll see how Thai people reserved their metaphorical "rights" to "own" tom yum: they imported lime and started to use its leaves. And modern tom yum just can't be a "proper" tom yum now without dat lime leaf. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

That's exactly where you get the "failing to get the point" WP:IDHT upgraded to "Wikipedia is not a dictionary]]" WP:DICDEF. Quite a self-explainatory issue: it is a bit odd to reduce the article's content to dictionary reference, isn't it? Guess we can finally agree on what is the actual red herring here. You should add a note to the infobox on the country of origin, whick exactly kind of borscht is meant. As a small extra homework, try googling "borsch" (borsch -borscht) and "borscht", then come back to ask why every picture of borscht has a white blob. 2A00:1FA0:4A5F:52D3:0:46:A90F:6401 (talk) 23:21, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

You're still wandering in the darkness about what "borscht" means to English speakers. Maybe that dollop of sour cream confuses you. This article is about what "borscht" means to the English speaking world (and that doesn't include random anon editors from russia who happen to speak English as a second language and are trying to scrub "Ukraine" from Wikipedia). This article is perfectly fine as it stands--it identifies "borscht" as a primarily beetroot soup, it points to other related sour soups in Eastern Europe that are related to beetroot borscht, it describes the history of beetroot borscht and what is known of the pre-beetroot history of borscht, and it identifies the homeland of beetroot borscht. It's a complete article that traces the Ukrainian origins of what the English-speaking world knows as "borscht". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

This. My mom would cook borshch without adding anything sour, and still refer to the soup as "borshch". 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

In fact, my mother's borshch is so simplified it may be considered to be something vegan. Yet the USSR's "Encyclopedia of Householding" indeed seems to be really loose with the "sourness" part of борщ. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Without the sour cream, a beet soup is a "shchi svekolnye", not a borscht. Therefore, there's no confusion. Simple as. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 06:01, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Dear IPv6 anonie, your "posh" style of speech just reeks. It stinks with non-encyclopedical amount of condescendingness. As Russian Wikipedians say, "znachimost ne pokazana", the value's not shown. There are 2 main lines of borscht: beet borscht and tomato borscht. My mom would cook a beet soup without anything tarty or souryu~; still calls it "borshch" to this day. You want to chat on how "borscht" is different from "borshch", be my guest! As for the sour hogweed and bialy borshch you keep advertising here, the closest thing I ever had were ramson (e.g. wild leek, known in Russian as "cheremshah") in picked form and a Maggi cube in my oatmeal. ALSO: you can literally see a tureen of thick borscht without a single drop of anything creamy right here, right on this very article. If you have a problem with the infobox, try designing your own one, because Taivo just had enough. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Nevertheless, there is a separate infobox on how borscht happens to a piece of cultural heritage, protected by UNESCO as "entry #1862". It is not a big deal to request a mere stylistic edit to temporarily remove the "country of origin" from the first infobox for now, as long as you have another infobox solely designed to remind how borscht is tied to Ukraine by UNESCO. The stylistic problem is, by misattributing a label "Ukrainian" to too many varieties of borscht, one may mess up and fail to tell which exactly kind of borscht is the traditional borscht to care about. The problem is, any tomato soup technically falls into the broad "borscht" category, so it is possible to poke fun at Campbell's canned tomato soup, joking on how Campbell "borrowed" a Ukrainian dish. 2A00:1FA0:4242:703E:0:6A:1618:8201 (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You're reaching for the absurd in your desperate russian attempt to scrub "Ukraine" from Wikipedia. Wikipedia's article on "borscht" has been a particular target of putin's wrath. "Temporarily"? Where does that come from? Borscht is not "temporarily" Ukrainian nor is it "temporarily" not Ukrainian. In Wikipedia we do not "temporarily" make an edit just so that you can be happy until you can convince a consensus. You are the one who has to convince a consensus of editors of your position. Until then, the status quo prevails and remains the text in the article. And "tomato soup"? That's another of your baseless and ridiculous arguments to promote the removal of "Ukraine" from Wikipedia. You simply refuse to admit the simple fact that "borscht" in English and the English-speaking world is made with beetroots. Other forms are precursors to borscht or minor variants that are not "borscht" to English speakers. Your anti-Ukrainian crusade is an argument against facts: Reliable sources in various languages (including Russian) overwhelmingly place the origin of borscht in Ukraine and reliable English language sources overwhelmingly place beetroots in borscht. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 05:14, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Back to the original IPv6 anon's question.

1. If I were to ask a for a bowl of borscht and served a bowl of borscht with beets yet without smetana aka sour cream, I would only ask the cook where's dat smetana is at.
2. If I were served anything else known as borscht, such as greenish sorrel borscht - even with sour cream - I would ask "Are sure it's supposed to be my borscht?"
3. And the same point would go to the case of having tomato borscht upon ordering "borscht". I would ask "Are you sure it's my borscht and not someone else's gazpacho?". Ergo: Beets are the least interchangeable ingredient of borscht nowadays. Here you go. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

BTW, IPv6 anon's "cannot say all beer is German in origin" analogy is too weak to be an argument, as people tend to drink beer for the alcohol content, not just hops. Although 0% alc. beer is a fine drink; beer's key ingredient is alcohol, not hops. Boom. Pwned. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I actually completely agree, you can't put a place of origin on something so old, widespread, and commonplace as Borscht. It would be like trying to place an origin on Tomato Soup or Chicken Soup. It's great to leave the UNESCO intangible cultural heritage infobox up to show the UNESCO has recognised the unique Ukrainian style of this pan-slavic soup, but even UNESCO themselves say that Ukrainian Borscht is just one "national version of borscht consumed in several countries of the region." Also Taivo your argument about the dictionary definition of the word in English actually disproves your point, since no reputable dictionary either offline or online defines Borscht as coming from Ukraine. In fact most English dictionary definitions actually match the Lithuanian style (cold Borscht). Flyingfishee (talk) 12:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Once again, you dive into any triviality to deny the Ukrainian origin of beetroot borscht, the only kind of borscht recognized as "borscht" by the vast majority of the English-speaking world and defined as such by multiple reliable sources from beyond the borders of Ukraine. Even American dictionaries of English from the middle of the 20th century cite the origin of "borscht" as "Little Russia" (aka Ukraine). The type of rhetorical gymnastics is simply amazing. The questions posed by the anon IP from 10 November are perfect in defininig that "borscht" as a soup in the English language is 1) red with beetroot (and only beetroot), and 2) might or might not have smetana. Your argument that other things are also called "borscht" doesn't apply to the meaning of the word in English, but only to other soups called "borsch" in other languages, but not in English. And, again, multiple reliable sources (including Russian-language sources from russia and the Soviet Union) place the origin of beetroot borscht in Ukraine. And your comment, Flyingfishee, that the modern dictionary definitions of "borscht" match Lithuanian cold borscht better ignores the fact that Lithuanian beetroot borscht originated in Ukraine (as do all beetroot borschts per reliable sources) and Ukrainians also eat cold borscht as well as hot. Reheating is not required. It's like saying that airplanes are also found in russia. Airplanes were invented in the US, but they have spread to russia. But that doesn't mean that their origin wasn't in the US. That utterly negates your use of the UNESCO statement to justify the non-Ukrainian origin of beetroot borscht. The statement says that the Ukrainian version is one of several national versions, but it does NOT state that the ultimate origin of beetroot borscht is anywhere other than in Ukraine. Just as there are different national airplane companies, the origin of the airplane is in the US. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

1. I wonder if modern canned tomato soup is indeed a thing from XIX century Ukraine at this point.

2. Lemme try a query... [2], [3], [4] ...

>In fact most English dictionary definitions

Nah, my search engine does not agree with FlyingFishee. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

3. By the way. I added "tomato borscht" section to Tomato soup article. Could you add the references from this article please? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean once again, I have no connection with the anon that started this discussion. Please show me one of those "American dictionaries of English from the middle of the 20th century" which cite the origin of Borscht as being little Russia. Even if this did refer to the Ukraine (rather than the Russian neighbourhoods of NYC or San Francisco, something that would make much more sense in the US context - they are both known across the nation as "Little Russia") the term stopped being used after the collapse of the Russian Empire and the rise of the USSR, so it wouldn't make sense for it to appear in a dictionary in the middle of the 20th century.

Furthermore Lithuanian Borscht does not originate from Ukraine, it originates from Lithuania. Hogweed and Beetroot grow all over the region (even though they are not native to the southern Slavic countries like Ukraine or Romania, they were introduced as an invasive species). What makes you think that Ukraine has a better claim to the origin of Borscht than any other country?

Lastly you can't ignore the UNESCO source. For them to avoid stating a clear origins of Borscht suggests that some of the worlds premier experts in cultural heritage can't be sure on the origin of Borscht, so why should we claim that we know better. Flyingfishee (talk) 00:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Webster's Unabridged English Dictionary, 2nd edition, 1934. "Little Russia" was a very common term before WWII for Ukraine (especially in anti-communist circles). It's rather silly to think that it might mean "Brighton Beach" and that the editors of WUED were so ill-informed about a common Eastern European cuisine as to think that it did. Beetroot borsch originated in Ukraine according to nearly every source that actually mentions an origin, whether that source was published in russia or anywhere else. Just because it originated in Ukraine doesn't mean that it never spread out of Ukraine into Lithuania, for example, and that the Lithuanians modified it in some way to make it distinct. Not all sources list the place of origin, but those that do state that it's from Ukraine. That is backed up by numerous references from travellers from centuries ago that talk about the unique beetroot soup of "Ukraine" (calling it by whatever name was current at the time, like "Little Russia"). There are plenty of references in the archives of this Talk Page. Look them up if you doubt me. I'll wait. But even if you don't want to look through the archives, I wonder if you've actually read the article. There are multiple places where the origin of beetroot borscht is mentioned with references. (Hint: it's Ukraine). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if FlyingFishee is actually referring to that Lithuania rather than contemporary small Lituhania. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the quality of that dictionary can be rated as "D" or "d". Please avoid going WP:DICDEF. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 13:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

>rather than the Russian neighbourhoods of NYC or San Francisco

Makes me think of Russian_Hill, San_Francisco. Wouldn't the dictionary you refer to (BTW, give download link!) say "Little Russia in NY/SF"? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, until the 18th century much of Ukraine was part of the Grand Duchy of Poland and Lithuania. "Download link"? To a several thousand-page dictionary that is 90 years old? I just pick my copy off my shelf and turn the pages. Well, it weighs about 20 pounds and is about 9 inches thick, so it's a two-handed job to "pick my copy off my shelf". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 12:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy 2023, Taivo! Wish you to get some tupperware-like airtight boxes to store batches of borscht; should it be made of beets, tomatoes or such a rare herb as edible hogweed. I did NOT intend to "scrub" such a sensitive word as Ukraine. I merely wanted to tone down a certain implication on how there's no pristine, genuine borscht outside of modern Ukraine. Besides, various Ukrainians despise beet and only consider tomato soups to be "the borscht" (proofs: [lurkmore.wtf/Борщ]). Anyway, shout out to Amakuha for spreading the info on Jewish adoption of borscht. 109.252.69.187 (talk) 13:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

OK, again. Isn't that obvious?

1. So, there's a label "Country/place of origin"...
2. ... and there is a section named "History" with a subsection named "Origins".

Ergo: two different entities under identical word "origin".

My proposal (totally scrubbing-free): History - Origins section should be renamed as History - Precursors 109.252.68.186 (talk) 20:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

> multiple reliable sources (including Russian-language sources from russia and the Soviet Union) place the origin of beetroot borscht in Ukraine

Those sources are not reliable and can't be treated as academic research. For example, Pohlebkin said that borsch's origin is Ukraine, but he didn't prove it. It's only his opinion.

In fact, the Soviet Union conducted a campaign to advertise borsch as a Ukrainian dish. You can find the name "Ukrainian borsch" in many Soviet books and on the menus of Soviet restaurants. So, this is the source of the confusion.

Regarding beetroot borsch, a beetroot recipe for borsch can be found in the first Russian cookbook. (1779)

https://archive.org/details/druk-02/page/n9/mode/2up 176.99.214.127 (talk) 23:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I suspect that if you actually read that "first Russian cookbook" you'll find that the region that is described as the original source of beetroot borscht is the plains of the Dnipro River, aka Ukraine. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 05:21, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps the word "origin" is confusing for some. "Origin" means that is the source of further diversification, it does not mean that only people from that place make "real" borscht even today. In the English-speaking world, beet-based borscht is the only thing that is usually labelled "borscht". The earliest beet-based borscht was from Ukraine. That doesn't mean that only Ukrainian beet-based borscht is all that is NOW labelled "borscht" in English. In English, "borscht" is beet-based and the earliest beet-based borscht was made in Ukraine. That's all that the "origin" tag means. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, a tag is a tag. Yet there's also something else with a word "Origin" on it. I would like to repeat my point. My proposal: section "History" - "Origins" subsection should be renamed as section "History" - "Precursors" subsection. Or something like that. It's confusing to have two entities with a same name. 109.252.68.186 (talk) 18:12, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a misnomer to me. This whole "borscht" in Russia looks like a HUGE misnomer to me. Russians have shchi array of soups, and even own sour kinds of shchi, and some of the shchi soups indeed have beets in it. But thanks to some Soviet naming conventions, all these soups are "borshch" ("борщ") in Russian now. Please investigate, comrade linguisto! Профессор кислых щей (talk) 06:05, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Similar issue with Light music

You know, I've been thinking. For some reason, light music is labelled as "mainly British" (thanks to Eric Coates' works), yet a lot of music from USA (Muzak etc.) is really close to the British idea of light music. I can imagine a similar argue. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

This reminds me. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik is a piece of light music. Its author, Mozart, is commonly misattributed as Austrian. IM

IMHO, the same misattribution takes place for borscht due to its popularity*availability in Ukraine, full of private vegetable g: it "feels" Ukrainian. That's why many people believe it's from Ukraine.rdens. 2A00:1370:81A2:E0D:188C:BB5:6C4B:22F5 (talk) 18:14, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

It's also based on reliable sources over the last three centuries that unequivocally place the origin of borsch in the territory of Ukraine. That's the difference between "light music" and borscht--evidence of its origin. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 22:43, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

OK, that's all what was needed: admitting it's about the area\territory\land. 2A00:1370:81A2:E0D:EC13:A7D1:A08E:33AD (talk) 01:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

References

What about smetana in beet soup? Feels like a different-ish soup.

I have a better question thanks to a recent edit by Sidor0o: what if borscht with smetana isn't exactly the borscht covered with WP:CONSENSUS and UNESCO inscr. #1852, but rather, a standalone beet soup under the same name? I sort of doubt that type of soup would count as a soup from "region U" by "people V or W", since the beet soup with sour cream was made by X in location Y for various purposes away from the living standards people V and W had. Therefore, the soup with smetana does not really go in the way with the "beet sour" soup the consensus took into account. Simply put, I do believe the beet soup with smetana, sour cream added to mitigate over-saltiness wasn't even supposed to be a "borscht", but was later named as one. Perhaps, someone who had trouble differentiating excuisite soups from Moscow/St. Peresburgh from peasant-ish concotion-tasting food of different style was responsible for such a misattribution. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oh, and before you dismiss it: things like smetana or lemon juice can be used to make too salty soups feel less salty. But that's my personal discovery from yesterday: I squeezed some lemon juice into too salty pea soup and, to my delight, the soup was not itching my mouth with salt anymore. The same worked out with smetana today: I added some 20% fat sour cream to reduce the preceived saltiness of tomato sauce in my mac-and-fish breakfast. I do believe now a beet soup with smetana could have been invented independently from the soup that was purposefully made with sour ingredients. At this rate, the article need more than 1 "Infobox food" card for more than 1 soup known as borscht since the sour cream soup was popularized by Hollywood, but it's unclear where the idea initially comes from. Could have been some rare "lifehack" to de-salt dishes, that had its own name. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Specially for Taivo: no, I don't contest the "this is English Wikipedia" part; as the beet sour borscht's origin stays apart from my questions. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Adding sour cream ("smetana") as a condiment after serving doesn't make it a primary ingredient. Many Ukrainians add a dollop of sour cream at the table, but at the same table, some diners will not add sour cream to borscht from the same pot. That doesn't make it a primary ingredient any more than ketchup or mayonnaise or cheese or jalapenos are primary ingredients for a hamburger. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I did not say the smetana dollop is the primary ingredient. I wanted to point out the article lacks information where smetana dollop comes from whatsoever. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

But the point I was trying to make is that talking about post-preparation condiments needs to be done differently than the way that primary, thus defining, ingredients is done. My wife puts sour cream in her borscht. I put paprika in it. But neither addition changes the fundamental definition of "borscht". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Apologies. While smetana is popular, it's indeed not the irreplaceable (not "unremoveable") element. Let it be shorter, then. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I disagree: in my opinion, smetana is important to make a "borscht "borscht" VERSUS a soup with beets is just "soup with beets"; and making a cabbage soup with a little addition of beets won't change much. Pink color? Rhubarb is also pink. So is sakura. Calling pink soups "borschts" for such a mere trait as extra food dye would be incorrect. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 12:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You may personally not like to eat borscht without sour cream, but that is a post-preparation condiment, a garnish, and not a primary ingredient in its preparation. Sour cream is your personal preference as a pre-consumption addition, but with or without that addition at the table, it's still borscht. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 17:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, that's one way to look at things. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Haute cuisine

What indeed amuses me, Burlacoff says there was 1 particular chef who made a particular "от кюзин", e.g. haute cuisine dish, while the artciel does not bring up other chefs' works under different names.

What helped familiarize Western Europe with borscht was the practice of Russian emperors, as well as Russian and Polish aristocrats, to employ celebrated French chefs, who later presented their own versions of the dish as a foreign curiosity back in France. One of the first French chefs to do so was Marie-Antoine Carême, who worked briefly for Emperor Alexander I in 1819. In his take on borscht, the original Russian soup served only as inspiration for an extravagant haute cuisine dish with an air of eastern exoticism. Apart from vegetables and beet sour, his recipe calls for a roast chicken, a fried chicken, a duck, a piece of veal, an oxtail, a marrow bone, one pound of bacon, and six large sausages, and suggests serving with beef quenelles, deviled eggs and croûtons.

I think those dishes invented by French chefs on Polish and Russian kitchens are wa-a-a-a-ay too different to be tied with WP:CONSENSUS-grade borscht from Borscht belt. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, in this section, I want to address how there are "borscht" soups where the beets are present yet are not the main ingredient (by weight, at least). I would refer to such soups as "vinegret soups" 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:56, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

By that logic, I was wrong

The hogweed food known as borshch is also "too different-ish" from the beet soup.

I think I was wrong about putting the beet borscht and the ancient hogweed borscht into the same category. Think about it: the kvass-like precursor could have been a sauce, an additive — and not a soup. That would explain, why it's a "concoction" with a "mouth-puckering taste". Regards, The Sour Shchi Professor. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 06:54, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Re: "The English word "borscht" is intimately tied to those good old red beetroots" claim

I find it kinda hard to agree on how a language that has several words for "ogurets" kind of vegetable (cucumber, gherkin, pickle) can use a borrowed word to describe any beet soupy dish rather than a specific kind of dish. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 07:03, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

You expect English to make sense?--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 09:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if you are supportive or not, honestly. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 10:43, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Just pointing out that English is highly unlikely to follow any pattern that an outsider might expect. We will borrow a word for a specific thing from one language and expand its meaning to a broad class. While at the same time borrowing a word for a broad class from another language and contracting its meaning to a specific thing. We will change the meaning of a third term entirely. We have multiple words for what other languages use only one for. And we have single words that encompass a spread of meanings covered by multiple words in other languages. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

True, that's how some false friends are created. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 14:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Postscript: we even have words that are their own antonyms. And I'm not talking about slang usages. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:32, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Sick speech, choom! :) 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Come to think of it; yes, sometimes it happens without any irony or youngster slang involved. Tasteless, for example, refers to something plain in taste (like water). However, for clothing or decor, "tasteless"/"without taste"/"lacks taste" may be a synonym for "tacky", e.g. refers to something too bold. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:53, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Apparently, the same goes to the pathetic word. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:34, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Good one. I guess that sets it. Get it? _Sets_ it. Set theory aside, the word "set" itself has hundreds of meanings. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 07:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

This article combines eight things in one:

1. Kvass-like concoctions (See "history")

2. That particular "beet sour" soup made somewhere withing modern area of Ukraine (See "Beet sour")

3. A bunch of variations made by different Ukrainians

4. Beet soups, made elsewhere by anyone

5. Restaurant grade borscht

6. Generic beet soup

7. Tomato soups are mentioned

8. Kapustnyak soup is listed as "cabbage

borscht".

The article needs to be broken into smaller articles... 2A00:1FA0:4406:5FC6:0:68:345F:3901 (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Proper Spelling in English

Borshch, Borsch or Borscht? (Russian - Ukraine: Борщ) In your current description, You have the main word and title as Borscht. Claiming the origin is from Ukraine. The transliteration from ukrainian or russian is Borshch. Yet in the description you use Borscht with the letter 't' at the end, in which the origin in your statement states comes from ashkenazi jews. So, the correct spelling should be Borshch without the letter 't'? Manischewitz started a production of this soup, served cold and labeled it as borscht. And perhaps, cold borscht can be used in such a format, while hot borshch can be used without the t. In any event, the correct spelling, even from the title of this page to the descriptions, should be BORSHCH, and not BORSCHT.. Valcot2018 (talk) 11:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

This is the English language Wikipedia and the "proper" spelling in English is "borscht" because the word is not a transliteration from Ukrainian, but a direct borrowing from Yiddish, thus the spelling "sch" for the [ʃ] sound and the final "t". English dictionaries without exception list that as the spelling of the entry and list any other options as rare (if it lists any other options at all), but even the most common rare option listed is "borsht" (which clearly is a pronunciation selling based on "borscht"). There is no distinction in English vocabulary between hot and cold borscht. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Svekolnik isn't just an extra name for kholodnik

Aside from Pohlyobkin's definition of "svekolnik", there is Ushakov's definition, as well as Ozhegov's definition from XX century: Svekolnik word is a word which generally describes a dish - or a soup - made of beet. Therefore, "svekolnik" is not an exact equivalent of "kholodnik".

Selyodka pod shuboi

In this sense, the following passage actually describes a dish which qualies as "svekolnick" genre of foods; despite not being a borscht or a soup, hence the possible confusion between "kholodnick" and "svekolnick".

There is a cold dish coming from Soviet cuisine known in Russia as "Selyodka pod shuboi", literally "herring under furcoat". It is, in a sense, a kholodnick-themed way to serve canned fish "fillet" bits, or a way to de-soup kholodnick. It is made by putting food in layers: Canned, marinated herring goes in a deep plate/pie-baking tray to form the bottom layer, Normally, there also is a middle layer made with mashed/grated vegetables like potatoes. Finally, grated/minced beet mixed with (sour) cream is used to form the top layer, the "furcoat" of fish.

Komst borscht

mention should be made of the unifying cultural importance of cabbage-chicken-tomato-päpakrut based komst borscht of the Ukrainian-Mennonite immigrant culture of Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Paraguay, Bolivia, Belize, Mexico, the USA prairies, and western Canada. 172.59.191.145 (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Personally, the idea of adding chicken to beet soup does not appear to be appealing. Poultry, unlike pork or beef, just won't make a strong broth.However, komst borscht does have no beets. Very interesting... 2A00:1370:81A2:156:A823:393C:90C9:5CA1 (talk) 08:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, since beet soup is not equal borscht (look up "shchi svvekolnye"), there is a possibility komst borscht was a dish villagers would cook in batches. It also possible komst borscht comes with casserole-like thickness. 2A00:1FA0:20F:F43A:0:5F:2C9:6C01 (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

About "Komst Borscht": the information I have managed to find so far is limited to culinary blogs. Maybe a query in a large library aggregator with an online search form will bring more relevant data. However, I am sure it should be left for TaivoLinuguist, who is the person experienced to search for rare borscht-related data in English-speaking regions. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Fine. Is of doings myselves, comrades ). I tried to look up "Komst borscht" pdf" for a minute. Well, instead of a book in PDF, there was a news-like mention of komst borscht. There is at least 1 news-like mention of the komst borscht, where every mention of borscht is marked with italic font. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2024 (UTC)