Talk:Border tartan

Disputed title

This is known as the "border check" or "border tartan". The earliest example was found in Falkirk, which was never in Northumbria. Because of this, I am going to move this page.--MacRusgail (talk) 12:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited the article and it is now in my mind neutral. You are correct that the earliest form of this check is from near Falkirk, and thus from Scotland. The other form was found in Continental Anglo-Saxon peat bogs in Jutland and showing that the check was not a purely British, Scottish or English thing but a generic Northern European pattern ("Tartan" or "Check" itself belonged to all cultures who could weave and thus it belongs to mankind in general) so calling it Northumbrian Tartan is biased (especially considering it is no longer that well known in Northumberland from my experience), even in the historic/cultural sense of Eastern Lowland Scotland and North East England as the check is worn in parts of Cumbria and the Western Lowlands. So yes, 'Border Tartan' is better. I would suggest using 'Border Check' though personally as it is a more generic English language word rather than the Gaelic 'Tartan' associated with the Highlands. Regards!

Edit: I know the word is French in origin (it was actually tiretaine not tartaine...ask an Etymologist!), but tartan is associated with the Gaelic tartans of Highland Scotland. Oh and as for the word, it was borrowed into a Scottish language (either Gaelic or Inglis, I am unsure) before it was borrowed into the English spoken in England. Check is still the generic term associated with the pattern as opposed to any specific regional variant. Sorry if that was not clear. I have corrected it for posterity! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 14:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC) Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 22:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not often one sees such a breath-taking display of ignorance and bad editing on WP.

"Tartan" is not Gaelic. It's an English word derived from the Old French tartaine. And, no. I don't care if there are populist websites saying otherwise. Ask an etymologist.

'Border Check'?!!! I'm not even going to go there.

"The earliest example was found in Falkirk, which was never in Northumbria". Firstly, that's beside the point. That was simply the earliest known sample and was a tiny fragment plugging a bottle. Hardly definitive of it's geographical origin. Roman coins have been found in Sudan, but that doesn't make them African in origin. Secondly, Northumbria included Bernicia (See Edwin of Northumbria) and Bernicia extended as far north as the Forth (See Bernicia ), so in fact Falkirk (or Egglesbreth, to give it its old Northumbrian name) was in Northumbria.

"the use of the Border tartan in the area can only be attested from the 15th century" is absolute nonsense. Multiple sound academic references date it back to Roman times.

However the most egregious error is to call it "Border Tartan". "Northumberland Tartan" is very clearly a more common use. Don't be fooled by Google counts as 248 out of 603 on "Border Tartan" refer to a ship. There are a paltry 350 or so genuine ghits on "Border Tartan", and if you look, you will see that many of these also mention Northumberland Tartan. Fabric historians call it Northumbrian Tartan (not Northumberland), Border Drab or Shepherds' Plaid. Border Tartan is about the lowest usage of any of the many names for this fabric pattern!

In short this article, which wan't up to much to start with, is now misnamed and even more inaccurate.

I'm native-born, from Aberdeen and have no axe to grind. I just like truth and accuracy.

I gave up years ago trying to keep WP accurate against the barbaric edits of the politically-motivated, self-opinionated and ill-informed. Mob opinion can't change fact. Anyone who really wants to know about the history of Northumbrian Tartan, read a book written by a reputable academic. Dear reader of this comment, fix the article if you care. I don't. 212.71.37.95 (talk) 13:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the truth and accuracy of the matter is it's been known as Border check/tartan etc for at least two hundred years, and as Northumbrian whatever only within my own lifetime. Therefore the article should be be "Border ....", not "Northumbrian ...." - even "shepherd's plaid" (as used by Hogg, I think) would be more appropriate. Calling it Northumbrian or Northumberland is anglocentric, considering that much of the area that uses it has not been part of that area for a thousand years.

"or Egglesbreth, to give it its old Northumbrian name" - Eaglais Bhreac (speckled church) by its modern Gàidhlig name. Not a very Anglian form at all, but a Celtic one, although Falkirk/Fawkirk is.--MacRusgail (talk) 18:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Which "Fabric historians call it Northumbrian Tartan"? If you can give references it would help others to see your point of view. I agree web searches by themselves don't prove much. But if you search for "Northumbrian tartan" on GoogleBooks you get nothing. This term doesn't seem to be used by any published books there, that's probably not a good sign. I wonder which "book written by a reputable academic" you are talking about, maybe you could tell us? I just checked tartans.scotland.net which lists the tartans currently in the World Tartan Register (a list of publicly known tartans) and Northumbrian tartan isn't on there either (and the tartan is neither listed as Border tartan nor Border check). However, Shepard tartan was (see link: [1]) according to this webpage it is also called Falkirk tartan. Anyways, i think that this is the most solid reference so far.--Celtus (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

All credit to MacRusgail and Celtus for responding politely to 212.71.37.95's hysterical outburst. I would just comment that, historically, the area between the Forth and the Tyne was to a great extent culturally homogenous. The greater distinction at that time was between Bernicia and Highland Scotland. Bernicians were Celts who called Falkirk Egglesbreth, wove the black and white tartan, called Æthelfrith their king and Edinburgh their capital. Now that the pencil line has been drawn between modern Scotland and England, lowland Scots seem more interested in identifying themselves with the Highland culture (much of which is both alien to them and a Victorian invention). The recent Northumbrian Celtic Revival (also a modern invention) seems more concerned with establishing a different identity from those just north of the (modern) border: "Northumberland Tartan" kilts worn at weddings, the small pipes and so forth. Although there were gradual and shaded differences between Northern and Southern Bernician culture (as there are in any large geographical areas) they were a single people with a single cultural heritage. Attempts to establish separate cultural heritages are modern and artificial. Æthelfrith and his people were neither Scottish nor English. They were Northumbrians.

Now what do we call this fabric pattern? Where cultural revival and traditional heritage are concerned, people tend to be emotional and opinionated. Wishful thinking probably plays a role in determining some opinions and I doubt there will every be full agreement. Certainly it's a tartan and not a check. Based upon usage, I think that's a no-brainer. If we go with historical usage, then it was worn mainly in Bernicia, which was historical Northumbria. In modern times, the main interest is in Northumberland, and that is certainly where the fabric is mostly seen, manufactured and used.(Duke of Northumberland, Northumberland Tartan Company, Northumbrian regiments etc.) I see no evidence of any usage at all outside of ancient Northumbria or modern Northumberland (correct me if I'm wrong).

An interesting excercise, although I'm not sure what if anything it proves, is to search on "Border Tartan" and "Northumberland Tartan" in Google Images. Interesting (although I'm not sure what www.mchenrycountyblog.com has to do with it).

I'd favour "Northumberland Tartan", based on current usage, but it's a personal view and I'm happy to go with the majority. Aardvarkvarkvark (talk) 07:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Erm...Actually they were Anglo-Saxons not Celts. I would think that the Old English name of their king Aethelfrith would be a give away. And yes a Northumbrian "Celtic" revival is a modern and uncommon invention as the "Celtic" culture of Northumberland is a modern invention. Also Edinburgh was not the capital of Bernicia, Deira or Northumbria, that was Bamburgh and sometimes York. I wish my fellow Wikipedians would get their facts right before posting! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I've always known it as Border whatever, and it is described as that by many writers. However, it has been appropriated, along with the "Northumbrian pipes" (another cross border icon) by one side of the border of late.

"lowland Scots seem more interested in identifying themselves with the Highland culture (much of which is both alien to them and a Victorian invention)." - apart from the fact that it is actually incredibly insulting (not to mention ignorant) to suggest that Highland culture is a mere invention of Walter Scott and Victorians, it is also not completely true. It's even worse that this has been put around by supposedly educated people. Anyway, many urban Scots are descended from Highlanders (thanks to population shifts), and Gaelic placenames can be found in almost all parts of the Lowlands to some degree (including the aforementioned "Egglesbreth")- not much in Berwickshire, but certainly in East Lothian and Peebleshire. The people who complain about Lowlanders wearing kilts, presumably think black people shouldn't wear them either. Or perhaps to be consistent, non-Americans should be forbidden to wear t-shirts and/or jeans. These comparisons show what a nonsense this is.

"In modern times, the main interest is in Northumberland" - again, this is untrue. Call it "check" by all means, but not Northumbrian. This is as nonsensical as suggesting Highlanders came entirely out of Walter Scott's mind. (The man was fluent in French and German, but never bothered learning the Highland language properly - doesn't that tell you something?)--MacRusgail (talk) 13:41, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect you are putting words in my mouth. If you re-read my comments you will see that I never mentioned Walter Scott, nor complained about kilts usage or Northumbrian Pipes AT ALL. My point is that groups both north and south of the modern border that divides ancient Northumberland are a bit too fond of claiming exclusive rights to that country's cultural heritage and denying it to the other side. In fact it was a unified country. Your preference for calling this fabric "check" is just that; your preference. There is no significant usage.Aardvarkvarkvark (talk) 03:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No, you didn't mention Walter Scott, but you did mention Victorians, which is equally nonsensical. I was not invented by rich Victorians, nor was my culture, nor was the place I used to live!!! Just use the bloody term "Border whatever" - it's the most neutral of all. Northumbrian tends to be associated with the other side of the Border these days, e.g. Northumbria University.

"Your preference for calling this fabric "check" is just that; your preference." Now who's putting words into my mouth? I never said it was my personal preference. Read what I said. On second thoughts don't, me and and most of my cultural background are merely a figment of the fervid Victorian imagination. --MacRusgail (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

And I for one know that Northumbria was a unified country (even that it was Anglo-Saxon not Celtic)! But as I have pointed out, the region that the Tartan is worn in does not corrospond to the Kingdom of Northumbria but includes parts of Cumbria (which was only for a short time part of the Kingdom]] and the West Lowlands of Scotland which were never part of the Kingdom of Northumbria. Thus I (as Northumbrian as I am) think 'Border Check' to be more accurate.

I have also noticed some of the references to the origins were cut from this article (which is NPOV), I have fixed that problem.

Please people, play nice. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 21:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"Border" is better since it refers to both the English and the Scottish side equally. "Northumbrian" hasn't been used to describe those parts of Scotland since the Battle of Carham... --MacRusgail (talk) 17:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree about that side of the Border not being refered to as Northumbria since Carham as part of it still is called thus by folk from Northumberland (and also the Northumbrian Language Association), and in fact 'Northumbrian' is abstract from the currant nationalities of English or Scottish as it is cultural and linguistic not national, but that is besides the point as I don't think anyone would call the West Lowlands or Cumbria, Northumbria (even if Northumbria did rule Cumbria for a while). So I agree Border Check would probably more accurate and more neutral. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 12:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about the English side... --MacRusgail (talk) 12:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Just a comment. Having read the above arguments and checked all the references as well as doing a bit of research of my own, I nominate this article as a classic case of what is wrong with Wikipedia. Clearly this article should be called Nothumbrian Tartan. It is by far the most common historic and current usage as has been shown by numerous solid references cited by those who support this view. But it will remian Border Tartan, as the opinionated and ignorant will shout louder. 88.109.186.139 (talk) 13:06, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

What 'numerous solid references' are you talking about? Do a googlebooksearch for "northumbrian tartan" and all you get is Webster’s Quotations, Facts and Phrases; the relevant paragraph within cites this article as a reference!--Celtus (talk) 07:03, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

No doubt you are a completely disinterested party with no axe to grind, and not one of these nationalistic Scots who has a knee-jerk "not yours" reaction to the idea that Northumbria once reached as far north as Falkirk and Northumbrians wore plaid? Look at the article history and you will see that someone has actually deleted the previous good references. Put what you like in the article. Wikipedia is full of disinformation. A bit more won't make a significant difference nor, contrary to some opinions one finds here, does it define human knowledge and historical fact. Anyone interested in the subject can find plenty of accurate information on the subject elsewhere. e.g. http://www.northumberlandtartan.co.uk/history.asp http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=1&tbs=tl%3A1&q=%22northumbrian+tartan%22&btnG=Search 89.5.233.95 (talk) 14:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Have you read a single thing in the discussion above? Funnily enough, "Border" refers to BOTH Scotland and England, unlike "Northumberland", it is not an exclusivist term. The "Scottish" sections of Northumbria were in the south east, and Falkirk could hardly be said to be the heart of them - if indeed it was ever in them at all. And the placenames don't bear that out. Northumberland is a completely different entity from Northumbria anyway, as I expect you know.--MacRusgail (talk) 14:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I think you are mistaking me for somebody who cares about your mistaken beliefs. Wikipedia is little better than a joke in serious academic circles. I see someone has removed the disputed name tag from the article. Another example of disingenuous self-serving editing. If you have any grain of honesty, fairness or honour in your heart, I challenge you to replace it. I won't because I don't care. 89.5.234.158 (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm well aware wikipedia is a joke. It is usually because people are trying to serve agendas, such as putting contentious names such as "Northumbrian" on things that have been known as "Border" for centuries. As pointed out to you, "Border" covers both countries and is fair, but "Northumbrian" has other connotations and is unfair.--MacRusgail (talk) 16:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Any idea why chefs wear it?

For some reason, its become a fairly standard uniform for chefs I have noticed, especially in the japanese hospitality industry. Surley this article could include some mention of its current use and how it has come to be used this way?? Hayaku (talk) 06:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find a connection and then add the information to the article. Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 11:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

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