Talk:Borane

Chemical Reactions

Is there a vital comma missing in the following

"Upon treatment with a standard base, it converts to a metal tetrahydroxyboranuide and hydrogen gas. "

i.e. ".... a metal, tetrahydroxyboranuide and hydrogen gas".

My chemistry is basic but I've never heard of an organic compound qualifying as a metal. Andrew F. (talk) 08:43, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

No comma, a 'standard base' does not contain organic groups, but metal. Plasmic Physics (talk) 09:27, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Borane

This monomeric compound, BH₃, is only known at high temperature. The stable form is the dimer diborane, available commercially e.g. 10% in H₂. The monomer is implicated in the formation of higher boranes via insertion, but I do not know if the presence as been actually been detected in such reactions. Also BH₃ is often quoted as the reactive reagent in organic synthetic chemistry e.g hydroboration (confusingly I have heard organic chemists refer to adducts simply as borane. The chemistry of monomeric borane can be viewed as that of the dimer, the adducts or the reactive intermediate.Axiosaurus (talk) 11:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

All true, with exception: the dimer has somewhat different chemistry. For example introducing diborane to ammonia, produces mainly diamminedihydridoboron(1+) tetrahydridoborate(1-), whereas amminetrihydridoboron must be produced by using a borane adduct as a reactant. Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:04, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Not sure what you are trying to prove with that example other than the chemistry of BH₃ is the chemistry of the dimer or the adduct. Axiosaurus (talk) 12:53, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Ummm, what? I'm trying to prove that their chemistry is different, not the same. Plasmic Physics (talk) 13:08, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I seem to have misunderstood you. Any way just to be clear then - I maintain that there are no known reactions of gaseous BH₃ monomer other than dimerisation. All the chemistry we see in a lab is the chemistry of the dimer or of adducts. Some of these reactions must involve molecular BH₃ as a reaction intermediate, however the impression I get from the article is that gaseous BH₃ is one of the reactants. Sorry to be pedantic :-) Axiosaurus (talk) 13:32, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Correct, the chemistry of gaseous borane is trival. However, borane's adducts and diborane each have their fair share of distinct uses. Moreover, the borane chemist considers the identity of the adductor to be unimportant, as long as it does not participate in side reactions that interferes with the desired product. The adductant, which is borane, is key to the relavant chemistry. That is why the adducts are often used interchangeably in reactions. Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:06, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

You have added some useful stuff to diborane re organic synthesis where diborane was used as a reactant. But then you have also moved material from diborane here, where the reactions involved also used diborane. Is there any logic to this?Axiosaurus (talk) 04:14, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no point on having the exact same content on both pages. The content I moved is more relevant to borane. It is the best temporary resolution at this time. As they say in the old country, "Half an egg is better than an empty shell." Plasmic Physics (talk) 04:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

LOL. The most important chemical property of borane is its acidity! Axiosaurus (talk) 12:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Could you please do me a favour, and make the chembox visible by removing the <!-- --> tag? It's as complete as its going to get for now. Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:03, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Added new sections

I have added some new sections, Lewis acidity, with details on strengths of adducts . BH₃ as an intermediate. I have also commented out some sections that relate to diborane - but the solute stuff is still here and will need to be copied over. The structure of the article is still unconventional, and there is stll some chemically suspect material there, also chemical names are correct but unfamilar and need formulae for clarification. Axiosaurus (talk) 17:17, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Just wondering, why was the paragraph on diborane copied across in solute properties? Why is diborane added to the hydrophile section, if it undergoes aminolysis when introduced into most amines, and hence quite disimiliar to borane? Commentary regarding oligomerisation, you explained it yourself, that borane reacts with other boranes (including diborane) to produce higher boranes. Why is the Chemical reactions section blanked out? Commentary regarding Production, you do know that the adducts of borane are synonymous and mostly chemically equivalent? Or, is hat not the issue? The section on acidity is under anhydrous conditions, up to the point where it mentions hydrolysis. That's not to exclude the process of hydrolysis, but with excess water, the reaction always proceeds to full hydroxylation, and the intermediate species are not easily observed due to the rapidity of the reaction. Plasmic Physics (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me answer you one point at a time.

The diborane solute details are new. They need to be added to the diborane article.

Diborane IS the reactant in "hydrophile" section. As I keep trying to explain to you the solution is one where diborane is added to solvent - borane, molecular BH₃ is a reactive intermediate which may or may not be involved in any particular reaction, you can't add it to a solvent. Aminolysis, that is an obscure term in inorganic chemistry, I woud take it to mean the splitting of a molecule, so it refers to diborane not borane.

The point about the "oligomers", the statement was "Unsolvated borane will spontaneously autopolymerise into oligomers." Borane will dimerise, and diborane is actually quite stable. Pyrolysis is heat and time, hardly spontaneous.

Re production. Yes I do know that the some folk use the term borane to refer to adducts. The chemistry of adducts obviously involves the intermediary of borane. What is being described here is the production of adducts. What the phrase "The other other method is the partial oxidation of a boranuide salt under a coordinating borane solvent such as trimethylamine." means is obscure. I can't understand it, and I even know what a boronuide is and as for a "coordinating borane solvent", now I'm really confused.

Acid. So under anhydrous conditions borane (BH3 or diborane??) reacts with OH_-. UMMM, Under what conditions has this ever been observed? Then later "arrhenius-like", well that is odd, arrhenius acids are those that deprotonate in water. What we have here is a hydride ion being replaced and then rapidly reacting with water to form H² and OH_-, calling it arrhenius like is obfuscation

At the time I thought the chemical reactions section may have had something of value in it, which is why it was not deleted, but it is now largely superseded by other sections, so is redundant. Axiosaurus (talk) 05:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Where to start... I wrote the hydrophile section, I know I wasn't writing about diborane, so I don't see where it comes into it. Did you presume that, because I used the 'gaseous' adjective?

Borane solutions are not the same as diborane solutions, that is what I keep telling you in turn. Diborane plainly reacts with the "solvent" in no uncertain terms, to produce an adduct of borane. Free borane is a reactive intermediate, but does not play a key role in most reactions. I didn't say that borane was added to the solution, I said that it exists in solution.

When borane dimerises, there is a concentration gradient, so that at any time during the process, there are amounts of stable diborane and reactive borane present. Borane not only reacts with other borane, but also with the diborane produced. So when borane oligomerises to form diborane, higher boranes are also formed in lesser quantities.

Again, returning to the adduct chemistry of borane: The chemistry of adducts involve SN2 reactions, not free borane. Free borane is the reason for the thermal instability of the diethyl ether borane adduct. The "production of solvent adducts" is just a grandiose manner of saying that it dissolves, since that is generally what happens in the formation of a solution in a polar solvent.

Boranuide is the IUPAC systematic name for BH⁻
₄. A coordinating borane solvent, is a solvent which forms stable adducts with borane in solution.

The article is about borane, not diborane, so the acid reactions are talking about borane also in anhydrous conditions. That is only one half of the Arrhenius-acid definition you have there. The other half: an Arrhenius acid may also decrease hydroxide concentrations. I left out the reaction mechanism for the sake of brevity, since not everyone is a chemical expert. Even so, I can assure you that borane does form an adduct with hydroxide as a reactive intermediate in that reaction, and so does subscribe to Arrhenius-acid character. Plasmic Physics (talk) 06:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Acidity of borane complexes

Wouldn't this section be better termed hydrolysis of borane complexes? The difference in reactivity between complexes and water is quite marked ammonia borane is slow whereas THF.borane is fast. There is little evidence for the existence of boronate and borinate intermediates so is there any reference to conjectures on their existence in the reaction pathway by authorities in the field.Axiosaurus (talk) 15:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Restatement from trusted editor

"This monomeric compound, BH₃, is only known at high temperature. The stable form is the dimer diborane, available commercially e.g. 10% in H₂. The monomer is implicated in the formation of higher boranes via insertion, but I do not know if the presence as been actually been detected in such reactions. Also BH₃ is often quoted as the reactive reagent in organic synthetic chemistry e.g hydroboration (confusingly I have heard organic chemists refer to adducts simply as borane. The chemistry of monomeric borane can be viewed as that of the dimer, the adducts or the reactive intermediate.Axiosaurus (talk) 11:15, 26 September 2013 (UTC)"

Plasmic: if you are determined to start editing this thing, why not start with an explanation of your plans? Your edits have often been controversial, so it would be a favor to readers to keep the arguing out of the article until some consensus is achieved. My advice is that if you feel that you have special insights, write a blog or publish a research paper in a journal. If you insist on contributing, please rely on WP:SECONDARY sources.--Smokefoot (talk) 14:44, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Start editting? I created it the article in the first place. It just needs a clean up to remove duplicate statements, and move statements more appropriate sections. I would rely on secondary sources, if there were any, but there are next to none. Furthermore, that much of the article refers to borane adducts, is not really a relevent arguement since many chemists consider most of the neutral borane adducts as chemically equivalent. Granted, different Lewis bases are associated with differing pi-backbonding strengths and reaction rates. Plasmic Physics (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

It is unfortunate to see you editing again in the chemistry sphere since your previous contributions have been so controversial and unhelpful. --Smokefoot (talk) 23:06, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

It is equally unfortunate to see you still making prejudical, deletory edits with little to no factual basis, and with no purpose other than to enforce your own limited understanding of chemistry. Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

In any case I encourage PP to state here any plans for significant changes so they can be discussed. Talk about the content rather than the editors please! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 04:30, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, your civility is appreciated. However, as I stated, I have no singular objectives here beyond the very general objective of continueing my initial work on the article. Other than that I am working on tidying it up, and checking that I've correctly paraphrased my sources. Plasmic Physics (talk) 05:06, 11 September 2017 (UTC)