Talk:Blue Shirts Society

Enormous massacre needs a source

The line, "In one case, in Mount Dabie, previously the base of the 4th Red Army in Northern Anhui, more than half a million were massacred." A half million people were massacred in one event and it doesn't have a source, nor can I find it anywhere on the net. Anyone have one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:47:100:7F50:9DB3:CAC8:A335:E865 (talk) 16:16, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

The article is incorrect

The article is long, but is factually incorrect and pov. The BlueShirts were created when some Nationalist officers saw Fascism as a quick way to remedy China's problems. They were mostly engaged in assasinating pro-Japan officials and communists. However, they were nowhere as efficient or as widespread as the Fascists of Europe. One thing the Kuomintang lacked was the power of mass mobilization. The article looks like it was based on Fragments of the Blue Shirt, published by the PRC. I wouldn't expect anything published in China pertaining to Republican history as npov. The book is a "historic novel" published by a 30years old non-scholar who never went to school, as stated here BlueShirts 21:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Your words of "I wouldn't expect anything published in China pertaining to Republican history as npov." is not NPOV itself. Please don't underestimate the intelligence and conscience of some scholars in mainland. I don't deny most of the details coming from this book. But have you read this book?Do you know how much research work this young author had done? If BBS was so clean and simple as you claim, why it was a taboo in Chinese modern history? If you don't believe in any book from mainland, why don't you read books of Professor Lloyd E.Eastman? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Giantcn (talk • contribs)

Lloyd Eastman changed his views in an article published in 1987, following the publication of several Lixingshe memoirs and one book on its history by Deng Yuanzhong. Too bad Lloyd's book Abortive Revolution doesn't reflect this change and keeps on printing the same erroneous opinion. Blueshirts 18:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Blueshirt Reading

Johnathan D. Spence, the highly regarded China expert from Yale, characterizes the Blueshirts in his undergraduate staple, The Search for Modern China, as:

Quote from the book

...Spearheaded by the earliest graduating classes of Whampoa cadets, to steel the political and military leadership of China for the long struggles ahead. Pledging themselves to lives of ascetic rigor, rejecting gambling, whoring or excessive consumption of food and drink, members of the group wore shirts made of coarse blue cotton, which led to their being informally named, 'Blueshirts'...Encouraged by Chiang...One theorist for the 'Blueshirts' spoke openly for their need to be like a knife, an instrument that could kill in combat or harmlessly cut vegetables...the same theorist found models for China to emulate in three societies: Stalin's Soviet Union, Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy. In all three cases, he claimed, the purpose behind the slogans of national or state socialism was similar to Sun Yat Sen's Three Principles of the People. He saw democracy as a sham that could only damage a country like China, with poverty and illiterate masses. ....With a fierce loyalty to the cult of Chiang as leader, with a strong base in the administrative, military and party machinery, and with its members granted special roles in the anti-Communist campaign, the Blueshirts nucleus developed into a disciplined military and secret-police apparatus....The Blueshirt Dai Li, a Zhejiang-born Whampoa graduate, became head of Chiang Kai-sheck's Special Service Section....Initially supervising 145 operatives, by 1935 he had 1700. Dai Li was believed to have directed a number of political assasinations of those opposed to Chiang, including the head of the Chinese League for the Protection of Civil Rights (in 1933) and editor of Shanghai's leading newspaper (in 1934) (It continues with descriptions of how Blue Shirts were used to infiltrate labor groups and spy on citizens). Spence, The Search for Modern China(pp.357-358).

furthermore In March 1940 Wang Jingwei, Sun Yat Sen's former lieutenant and one time second-in-command to Chiang Kai-sheck, at last lent his prestige to the central China puppet regime-to the delight of the Japanese- by accepting the post of its ranking official. Wang's regime was afforded diplomatic recognition by the Japanese...Despite concentrated attempts by Guomintang secret agentsunder Dai Li to assasinate prominent Chinese collaborators, Wang's regime survived....

(Spence, p.439)

Barbara Tuchman in, Stilwell and the American Experience in China, refers to the Blueshirts as, "The Kuomintang's stormtroopers". (Tuchman, p.321)

The least flatteriing portrait is painted by Brian Crozier in, The Man Who Lost China (1976),(Crozier;pp.10-11)

Theodore White's Chapter in, Thunder Out Of China, "Chiang Kai-sheck-The People's Choice" does not get into the Blue Shirts per se, but he does mention the New Life ideology.

For the Sterling Seagrave treatment, you can look at pp.292-294 in The Soong Dynasty

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Maowang (talk • contribs) 05:53, May 7, 2007

On your long comment, all I have to say is give me a break, you're beating a dead horse. Every book on Chinese history that labels the blue shirts as "fascists" based this conclusion solely on Lloyd Eastman's article in China Quarterly. The same thing is carried over to Eastman's book Abortive Revolution. I've read many books and when you check the notes section, almost all of them cite the above work by Eastman as reference. Thus, it makes absolutely no difference at all how many references you can drum up with, because all of them are derived from the same work. After some heated discussion with Maria Chang in the China Quarterly, and particularly after the revelation and exposure of the group by former members in the 1980s, Eastman has profoundly changed his views, and this is reflected in an article published in the journal Republican China, now "Comtemporary China" I believe. Research in these areas is always changing, please. Blueshirts 03:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be trying to blame Eastman for all the research on the Blueshirts. I'm sure Mr. Eastman would be flattered that he could have so much influence and the singular authority. I haven't seen his name in any of the notes. I did see a report from a magazine article from 1936. I also see a book here called "Fascism in China 1925-1938: A Documentary Study, by Michael Lestz and Cheng Pei-kai pp. 311-314. This does not seem to rely on Eastman for any "documentary evidence".

I'm trying to think of where I saw that connection...maybe in Formosa Betrayed or something

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Maowang (talk • contribs) 06:58, May 7, 2007

Reply by Blueshirts

That is so much misinformation. The passage from Barbara Tuchman's book on Stilwell says the organization was founded in 1932, when in reality it was 1931 before the invasion of Manchuria. It also says they were Chiang's "storm troopers", when the influence of fascism was minimal. The entire passage also had only one passing mention on the oganization, "...leaders of group which founded the Blue Shirts, the Kuomintang's storm troopers". And the sentence itself was not referenced and carried no citation at all. And you're using this weak reference as a source to call them fascists? As for the information from Crozier's The Man Who Lost China, it's a popular history book with very little research value. Crozier is a journalist, not a historian. This is from the review of this book on Pacific Affairs (v. 51 no. 1) by James Sheridan "...the sparsity of sources shows up not only in obvious errors in Chiang's main public activities, but also in gross over-simplifications and errors in his treatment of the political context". The only good thing about this book is that it was the first English biography about Chiang's entire life, but carries too many mistakes and too little analysis for the specialist, especially in an area as complicated as the blue shirts. The same thing can be said for "Soong Dynasty" and this popular history books, which are good the the general readership, but probably would get a graduate student marked for his use in his term paper. And I'm surprised that Eastman was not mentioned as he was the head guy in creating this notion in western scholarship, with his seminal article in the China Quarterly in 1972, as most previous sources that called the blue shirts fascists were Japanese intelligence propaganda aiming to undermine Chinag's negotiations during the pre-war period. And the 1991 book by Eastman was not a new book, it was a collection of essential chapters from the Cambridge History of China. It does not reflect any changes in his views due to his discussions with various historians and former members of the group. Seriously, I hope you don't make this kind out-of-context edits and quote mining on any of the articles you make on wikipedia, and maybe find better specialist sources than general history books that you find in barnes-and-nobles. Blueshirts 04:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Unusual emphasis on minor past event

Respectfully I comment such minor historical detail such as Blue Shirts Society is not requiring of such efforts and comprehensive treatments on the Wikipedia Project. Wen Hsing 04:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Fascism task force

Looking at the discussion here, it seems that reffering Blue Shirts Society as fascist is controvercial. I decided to add the article to fascism task force, but that does not imply that Blue Shirts Society was fascist.

Sapere aude22 (talk) 14:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

More sources

Payne, Stanley G. (2001). A history of fascism, 1914-1945 (reprinted ed.). Abingdon, Oxon: Routledge. p. 337. ISBN 9781857285956.

Zarrow, Peter (2005). China in war and revolution, 1895-1949. Abingdon, Oxon: Routledge. pp. 255–258. ISBN 9780415364478.

Sapere aude22 (talk) 14:23, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Mention the dates in the intro paragraph so in other articles readers can understand what time frame this is about

The dates "Created March 1932 - Dissolved April 1938" are mentioned in the side panel, but that makes it doesn't show when they are mentioned and hotlinked in other articles and readers have no clue in what time frame this is to be situated and eg I had to come to the article because I assumed they were still active. So mentioning these dates in the intro paragraph isn't that a good practice?

, Thy, SvenAERTS (talk) 10:08, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

It generally is, but I don't see that information in any of the sources I can access, so I have removed it. If you want more help, change the {{help me-helped}} back into a {{help me}}, stop by the Teahouse, or Wikipedia's live help channel, or the help desk to ask someone for assistance. Primefac (talk) 11:46, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Fascism?

The BSS is not a fascist organization. Chinag and Li disliked the racial purity or populist element of fascism, and simply referred to the authoritarian element of the organization. Most Japanese Uyoku dantai organizations are not considered fascism, either. This is because Japanese ultranationalism or Chinese ultranationalism is distinct from fascism because they are not populist.

English Wikipedia does not use categories related to fascism in articles related to Japanese ultranationalist ideologies or organizations during World War II. Chiang's authoritarian organization, the main leader of the Allies in World War II, is by no means more fascist than the Japanese ultranationalists. (Nazi Party of the totalitarian Japanese Empire is not a 'fascist' organization, but is Blue Shirts Society a 'fascist' organization? Japanese statism is not Japamese fascism, but Chiangism is Chinese fascism? This is completely stupid.)

The 'Fascism in China' category should be removed and replaced with the 'Chinese ultranationalism' category. BSS is just an elitist ultranationalist, not a fascist, because a key element of fascism is populism. The BSS attacked the communists, not the ethnic minorities; it is non-populist non-racist extreme anti-communism, which has nothing to do with fascism. Fascism experts like Roger Griffin do not view Chinag's rule as fascism. ProKMT (talk) 23:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• As referred in the article, Blue Shirt Society was inspired by the success of German Brownshirts and Italian Blackshirts, developed byt KMT under Chiang Kai-shek's leadership and applied to the government (mainly through the military agents) to suppress the oppositions interior and exterior the Party, after Chiang imprisoned four senior KMT leaders which backfired to force him resigned; another example was the Korean White Shirts Society (which also enlists "파시즘" (Fascism) in its ideology and category in the Korean Wikipedia as well). as JArthur1984 explained that the source you referred did not contend that the Blueshirts as non-fascist, but contrasting their elite / popular focuses in comparison research purpose. And BSS cannot be generalized to compare with the Japanese Uyoku dantai organizations before the WWII, because they were against the government policies and sometimes even considered as extremists or criminals, but BSS on the contrary, was a cultivated weaponized tool on the early stage by KMT centralists, whose pattern and experiences was later applied by other agencies out of laws, such as Juntongt of laws. You are mis-intepreting and misleading the public with your own opinions, please respect stick to the source.
• A fascism regime fighting another for national interests does not justify it as less- or non-fascistic, just like the truth of a communism regime clashes against another cannot deduce to that conclusion either - this falacy applies not only to the factions between Chiang and Wang Jingwei within the Party-state (Dang Guo, whereas Wang turned pacifist after being marginalized in KMT, while Dai Li's BSS-succeeding agencies were still busy in assassinations and the following civil war), but also applied to the relation between the Republic of China and Japan upon the World War II, as Chiang had tried all means to maintain the relation with Nazi Germany, including sending his family representative to Berlin in last diplomatic efforts, his armour-officer son deployed to participate the annexation of Austria, Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia then standby on the post of Polish Front, and even detained the German military strategy advisor group to force them stay in continuing the mission... yet unable to change Adolf Hilter's mind changing to choose Japan as the "honorary Aryan" to form the Axis instead.
• The "elitist ultranationalist" is playing words since the "elitist" actually only refers to the "Party centralists" around the Führer for power control - KMT used BSS asserting One Party, One Doctrine, One Leader, One Enemy (which changed to "Three enemies" after 1970s to include Party-outsiders and Taiwanese independentists) as the training program to adopt the morality of German and Italian nationalism recovery movement with the implementation of iron and blood for salvation... its core point is that fascism is the only feasible way for the contemporary China. The fact tht KMT's self-righteous ideology and manipulation did not work in the immense territories of China, and also condemned by the United States after the world war, cannot induce that it's not populists - just see the example of how a fascism government can control all aspect of citizen life from school to home in details, populate its logic pattern to the societies and culture through the brainwashing education system, political guidance and secret agency system, once when the Republic of China got a chance to experiment them on a smaller-scaled territory as Taiwan eventually.

== reference ==

Mickie-Mickie (talk) 06:33, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Lee Teng-hui cooperated with the fascist Japanese empire, and Lee denying the Chinese Feb. 28 incident and Japanese White Terror. Annette Lu interacts with South Korean far-right media that claim the victims of the South Korean Feb. 28 incident are "communist". Lu called on South Korea's left-wing government to release Park Geun Hye when Park was in prison, with Park being the daughter of South Korean Chiang Kai-shek. Lee has visited Yasukuni shrine in countless times to downplay Japanese war crimes. Lee even scolded Japanese ultranationalist Shinzo Abe in private for not visiting Yasukuni shrine when he was prime minister. Some Taiwanese nationalists love 國家主義 fascists in Japan and South Korea, but call the KMT a "fascist" and attack Chiang Wan-an's lineage every Feb. 28. So is Lee, Lu and other Taiwanese nationalists is fascist? Likewise, Chiang's friendship with Nazi Germany before the Anti-Fascist War (Second Sino-Japanese War) was to kill a revolutionary-feudal totalitarian communists (=Feudal FASCISTs), not because Chiang was a fascist. Just because Stalin joined hands with Nazi Germany to invade Poland does not mean Stalin is a fascist. Currently, the English Wikipedia does not define Japan as fascism during WWII, so did the liberal democratic United States support the fascist regime in China/Taiwan during WWII and the arly days of the Cold War? Do you believe a "fascist" country was a permanent member of the UN until the 1970s?? Really??

Currently, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association article does not use the fascism category either in English Wikipedia. Hideki Tojo and Fumimaro Konoe do not use the Japanese fascist category either. So, did the Anti-Fascist War involve an anti-fascist state in an invasion of a fascist state?? Historians Paul Jackson and Cyprian Balmires, have classified the Blue Shirt Society as a ‘fascistic’ ultranationalist group rather than a ‘fascist’ group.

Chen Shui-bian is a fascist. Chen Shui-bian was willing to declare a "martial law" to attack the KMT on 25 November 2007.# He is even referred to as an "ultranationalist" from a some source.# George Orwell said the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else ... Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathisers, almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come. And other language versions of wikis, such as Korean Wikipedia, cannot be the basis. In particular, Korean Wikipedia considers Park Chung-hee a fascist, but English Wikipedia does not consider Park Chung-hee a fascist. ProKMT (talk) 07:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

• You are all over the place implying the logical fallacies out of the context, and have crossed the line of the editor's conduct principle by deleting references. Please note that you have no right to remove the legitimate notes, and changing the key content requires the consensus.
• Lee Teng-hui and Chen Shui-bien are irrelevant to the Blue Shirts Society, and it is not logical to refer them into this case here, neither can this generalization behavior justify the deletion of multiple references by ignoring them. Please put your personal opinions to the adequate article.
• Please read the source carefully, you cannot refer the other different cases to th BSS with your opinions for granted by yourself, nor taking one individual ambiguous sentence to rule out the other six scholar's research books. You can add that disagreement in the article for the reference, but has no right to delete other references to eliminate the evidences. That is really low! Mickie-Mickie (talk) 08:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The Juche article includes: Juche has been variously described by critics as a quasi-religion, a nationalist or fascistic ideology, and a deviation from Marxism–Leninism. However, the article does not use the "fascism" category. Above all, it's a matter of equity. Why is the organization of Chiang Kai-shek, the anti-fascist leader, fascist when the totalitarian ruling party of the Japanese Empire is not "fascist"? Hideki Tojo or South Korean Chiang Kai-shek (Japanese collaborator) is not a "fascist" but Asia's most powerful anti-fascist leader during World War II is a "fascist"??

The White Shirts Society 백의사 article in English Wikipedia doesn't currently use the "fascist" category either, and I've never edited it. The totalitarian racing party of the Japanese Empire 大政翼賛会 also in English Wikipedia doesn't currently use the "fascist" category. There is no basis for any other language version of Wikipedia. Articles in Korean Wikipedia and Japanese Wikipedia are separate from those in English Wikipedia. ProKMT (talk) 09:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I respect the sources you have presented, but I think it is inappropriate to cite Anthony James Gregor as the source. It is against WP:RS to cite him. To accuse BSS of being a "fascist", one should not cite biased views of real American fascists, not neutral scholars like Roger Griffin and Aristotle Callis. (Roger Griffin defined the Japanese statists, KMT nationalists, and the Russia's Putin government as not fascists. Aristotle Callis distinguishes between "para-fascism" and the real "fascism".) ProKMT (talk) 01:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the best way for the two of you to address this issue is to look at the sources and see which ones describe the Blue Shirts as fascist and which describe it other ways. Rather than looking to other wiki articles for comparison or discuss what the characteristics of fascism are. See how the sources describe the Blue Shirts, specifically. And in the process of doing so, you may find other good sources that can be used to develop the article. JArthur1984 (talk) 12:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Therefore the Category:Fascism in China category should be removed under NPOV, as the article also reflects the historian's view that the BSS is an "ultranationalist" rather than a "fascist". Whether BSS is fascist or not can be addressed in the text of the article, but the category in which NPOV should be strictly observed should not be used carelessly. Currently, the English Wikipedia does not use Category:Fascism in South Korea even in the White Shirts Society article derived from BSS. Wikipedia:Categorization includes: Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate. ProKMT (talk) 02:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)