Talk:Blue Police

Translation

Can someone translate this? https://pl.wikiquote.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ringelblum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.7.139.188 (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Untitled

While navy-blue might be the most correct translation of the Polish word "granatowa", most of the historical works in English just call this formation "Blue Police". Google Book Search shows that "Blue Police" is a much more prevalent form. Hence, I am moving the article. Balcer 22:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Relevance?

Since the article is about the collaborationist Polish Police force in the General Government, I removed a completly irrelevant paragraph to the subject matter. Dr. Dan 17:57, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Please try to provide the references together with their corresponding page numbers. --Lysy^talk 16:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainian Inclusion

I was under the impression that the Blue Police represented Polish-Nazi collaboration with their German overlords, and that the Blue Police "primarily" consisted of Poles. Although I'm sure their were other nationalities employed in the force, it almost seems that the inclusion of Ukrainians is somehow trying to dilute its Polishness. Perhaps I'm wrong. Would anyone care to present the percentages of the various nationalities compromising the Blue Police. Rather than completely deleting the reference to Ukrainians, I chose to soften the impression of its significance. As a result of this being disputed, I will ask that unless a reference showing a "significant" percentage of the Blue Police was Ukrainian, that the entire accusation be removed as POV and irrelevant. Dr. Dan 18:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

The Blue Police was predominantly Polish or Ukrainian, depending on the region. Ukrainian units were created in 1940 in Kraków and Lublin district and later in Lviv. Other nationalities were less significant then Poles and Ukrainians, and had not their separate units. Would you be able to rephrase the sentence in the article in a way that addresses your concerns about "diluting the Polishness" but also maintains the information that the police consisted primarily of Poles and Ukrainians ? --Lysy^talk 11:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell us what the percentage of the 10,000 to 15,000, Blue Policemen, were Polish and what percentage were Ukrainian? Does anyone else know the facts concerning these percentages? Dr. Dan 15:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the percentage. What I meant was that this depended on the time and the area, so a "flat" number would be meaningless anyway. What is important is that the majority of the personnel were Polish or Ukrainian and the number of other nationalities were not significant. This is not because Poles or Ukrainians were particularly "bad" but this is because of the way how these units were recruited. --Lysy^talk 17:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not judging "bad" or "good". I'm asking for a percentage to gauge if the inclusion of Ukrainians as a "primary part"of its membership along with the Poles, is appropriate. As for it depending on the time and the area, lets make the area, the General Government, and the time 1939-1944, if it helps. For example, if the Blue Police was 95% Polish, and 4% Ukrainian and 1% everything else, Ukrainian would be inappropriate in the "primarily" context. Perhaps someone else can better elaborate on the numbers. Dr. Dan 05:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Dan, limiting the scope to "General Government 1939-1944" does not make sense, as BP did not exist outside GG. As I explained above, its composition varied with time and depended on the region. This in fact is also explained in the article, as the Ukrainian units operated in SE parts of the GG. --Lysy^talk 06:44, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

History of Poland by Czesław Brzoza, Andrzej Leon Sowa "Historia Polski 1918 - 1945" informs there existed

• the Polish police (10 000, later 12.500+) and
• the Ukrainian one (hundreds till 1941, 4.500 later).

Did the Germans consider them as one organization? Did there exist mixed units? Xx236 14:13, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Those statistics add up to about 17,000 Blue Policeman. Is that about the right fifure now? Dr. Dan 15:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The book doesn't sum up both numbers. In which way there existed ONE police with Polish and Ukrainian policemen, who -when possible- killed each other?Xx236 16:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

paramilitary?

The Blue Police was a local police plus a number of paramilitary units rather than a paramilitary unit. The police wasn't any unit, but a number of local polices, under local German commanders. Xx236 14:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Similar police organizations existed the all of the occupied countries

But the editors prefer to ignore them. The only information I have found is critics of the French police in Vichy France. Xx236 14:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Smuggling, Black Marketeering, and Polish Patriotism

Not to waste too much time on this, what is the relevance, and more importantly, the necessity, to make this specific distinction of "smuggling" from other criminal activities? And was the Blue Police not used to combat the Black Market? It seems awkward and unusual. Perhaps a complete removal of this point helps put back the focus of the sentence, which would be to state that this nazi-collaborationist entity aided and helped the nazis perpetrate the Holocaust in Poland. Dr. Dan 17:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Some US citizens seems to be proud, that people of other nations collaborated. The problem is that the USA did what it did, even without German occupation - expelling St. Louis ship or not issuning visas (eg. for the family of Anna Frank). Yes, there are Overpeople and Underpeople, and everyone knows that Americans under German occupations would have never collaborated. They would have even elect a non-Nazi government, the idea the Underpeople would never had. Oh those Slavic criminals... Xx236 15:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Some references would be nice. Consider that smuggling can also mean smuggling people (and during IIWW that could include for example Jewish refugees...).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan apparently forgot that the article mentions both aspects of the Blue Police. Both the fact that the entity aided the nazis perpetrate the Holocaust and that it helped the government fight against the nazis and the Holocaust. Anybody have any problem with that? //Halibutt 02:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Are either of you saying that the Blue Police were "smuggling" Jewish refugees. If so, a reference for that would be more in order than needing one to explain that smuggling is a criminal activity, rather than a "patriotic" one. Even Rhett Butler did it for the money. And I'm sure that Polish-Nazi Collaborationist Groups, had to have done some good things too. I don't have a problem with that. Does anyone else? Dr. Dan 19:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

What I meant is that the Nazis attempted to degrade the Polish population of General Government amongst others by economic means. This included food limitation and rationing, and smuggling food from the Reich to GG was one of the countermeasures of the Poles. To call it a criminal activity is similar to calling the Home Army Polnische Banditen. --Lysy^talk 21:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Lot's of confusing info in your comment. Polnische Banditen, where have I heard that before? Everyone knows that there used to be a great emnity between the Germans and the Poles, otherwise we wouldn't have the gem, Heute gestolen. Morgen in Polen, in the vernacular. Just as the eminity between the French and the Germans has died down, so has it slightly died down between Poles and Germans. I hope the Wikipedia format doesn't start fanning these flames again. I know from personal experience it hasn't improved Polish-Lithuanian relations terribly much lately.

So then, was "smuggling" as written in the article limited to smuggling food from the Reich to GG, or any kind of smuggling? And my real question or confusion regarding the matter is why the specific distinction between "smuggling", "other criminal activities", and specifically the Blue Police's role in combating this "crime"? And one more thing, ...attempted to degrade the Polish population of GG amongst others by economic means (sic). This included food limitation and rationing... Were the nazis trying to degrade their own population with food limitation and rationing too? They were also implemented in Germany, I'm sure you know. Dr. Dan 17:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, this is a longer topic. German occupation of Poland was not as nice as the occupation of e.g. France. There's been a lot of policies explicitly targeted to exterminate the nation by various means. The food and other restrictions for Poles in GG and for Germans in the Reich are incomparable things, I even cannot believe you would not know this. --Lysy^talk 17:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course I know they are not comparable. Just the same, why can't we focus on the term smuggling as it is rendered in the article? Why can't we address what the need to distinguish it from other criminal activities is? I can't believe that you believe, smuggling to be a "patriotic" activity, that was perpetrated to spite the Germans and to bolster the national pride of Poland. My issue is very simple, the activities of this collaborationist entity against the Jews needs to be clearly given a single spotlight, without a watering down of this tragedy with some blather about smuggling. Perhaps you can come up with a solution. Dr. Dan 05:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I only object to assuming the Nazi POV in the article and calling smuggling in the GG a "criminal activity". I bet you would not similarly call hiding Jewish people a criminal activity. As for highlighting the BP actions against the Jews, I don't know - how frequent they were ? what was the character of these actions ? I'm not trying to whitewash the BP, I know they were hated by Poles. But also I'd be reluctant to generalize too easily, we better find some references first. --Lysy^talk 07:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

If we can agree not to call smuggling in the reality of Nazi occupation in GG a "criminal activity", we can go on to see if and how to highlight the anti-Jewish activities. --Lysy^talk 07:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I would rather divide the policemen into two groups (and a whole rainbow among them) - those who cooperated with the underground and did only that, what they were oredered to, and those who lost any moral limits, like the real Franciszek Kłos (maybe the name is fictional). Only children believe they could have acted like James Bond or persons in Halo, halo. The pre-war policemen had little choice, those who joined the police later without any underground initiative, were guilty, like any policemen under Germans, never punished and sometimes distuingished after the war like the ones in the Channel Islands. Xx236 16:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"not as nice as the occupation of e.g. France" German occupation of France was nice ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.216.89.205 (talk) 15:35, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Which police wasn't collaborationist?

Which of many police formations under Germans wasn't collaborationist? Why only the Polish one is branded this way and obtained a separate article?

What is the meaning of the paramilitary word here? Which other police article describes local police as a paramilitary unit? It wasn't any unit, because any local police was commanded by a local German commander.

People, do your job correctly or do something different. Noone is obliged to write POV texts. Xx236 16:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Xx236, the (See: also) link at the bottom of this article gives a couple of examples you can read up on. The Vichy France article gives some more examples. There are others too. Dr. Dan 01:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Which others? I have found the Vichy France myself. The Jewish police acted in extremal situation and the Lithuanian Security Police was a small qualified group, not a common police.Xx236 08:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I too have a problem with the label "collaborationist." Here's a quotation from The Holocaust in History, Michael Marrus, talking of Judenrat: "Virtually none of them "collaborated" in the sense of identifying with wider Nazi aims" (116). Isn't that what people mean by collaborating? These police were forced to report for duty under penalty of death. Furthermore, according to Raul Hilberg [Perpetrators, Victims, and Bystanders, pp 92-93] "Of all the native police forces in occupied Eastern Europe, those of Poland were least involved in anti-Jewish actions.... They [the Polish Blue Police]…could not join the Germans in major operations against Jews or Polish resistors, lest they be considered traitors by virtually every Polish onlooker." To label them in their basic identity collaborationist seems to insert a pov that isn't supported by history and a common understanding of words. The extent to which they were or were not collaborationist should be dealt with in the body of the article.

Velleities (talk) 16:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)velleities

I took out "collaborationist" for the reasons stated above. Basically the whole article's import revolves around that question and it shouldn't be prejudged with an adjective in one of the first sentences. I'm also taking out "volunteers" since the pre-invasion police force were forced to report back for duty or else.

Velleities (talk) 18:07, 13 April 2013 (UTC)velleities

In another talk page it's mentioned that the Blue Police were unarmed? Is that true? Does anyone have a source for that?

Velleities (talk) 10:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)VelleitiesVelleities (talk) 10:32, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

How Many is Many?

One of the most prolific contributors to Wikipedia (as I have been told frequently), recently added that "many" officers in the Blue Police were given the Righteous Among the Nations award. I have changed this to "some". Hopefully I won't be reverted for missinformation. How many in the "many" that you mentioned, were so honored out of this 15,000 plus collaborationist entity? Dr. Dan 02:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I know only Bronisław Marchlewicz.Xx236 08:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, you are a hate monger. Would you please look for an another victim than Poland and Poles? Is there any edior around to limit him?

In which way are Poles responsible for Ukrainians you 15 000 plus mathematician? You repeat your stories many times, do you believe you make them true this way? Xx236 08:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Lysy, for bringing us the link to Blue Police Officer, Nowinski. Do you have a figure as to how many is many?

Xx236, thank you for your kind words (what, no administrator to admonish or warn you about WP:Civil?) Regarding, Is there any edior around to limit him? (sic), do you mean censor me, silence me, or something else? Dr. Dan 13:21, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Find an another victim to play your games, not me, not Poland. I wonder why some Poles accept your behaviour. Xx236 13:48, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It would give me great pleasure to not play games with you, and to ignore you completely. Just don't mention my name or concern yourself with me. You're incapable of answering simple questions, and are discourteous as well. It won't be hard for me to not be involved with you any longer. And don't equate yourself with Poland either. It's a great country, with great people. Dr. Dan 23:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Dan, I thought we agreed on "some", not "many". Why would you like the "many" back now ? --Lysy^talk 08:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Sure we "now" agree, and I made the change in order for us to "agree". Why are you not interested how or why "many" was originally placed in the article? Why can't you, or the original author of the mistake tell us just how many were so honored? My seeking these answers in no way indicates any desire of mine to re-instate the probably false information. Why would you think that I do? I am really just interested how many were so awarded. Dr. Dan 21:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

OK I don't know. Probably not more than 5941. But seriously, you'd have to check the list. --Lysy^talk 22:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably not more than five, or less. But seriously, someone must know. Dr. Dan 01:28, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ukrainians

What source confirms the presence of Ukrainian policemen in the Polnische Polizei? There existed Ukrainische Hilfspolizei: "Das Frank-Régime gewährte den Ukrainern getreu seiner Maxime ‚divide et impera‘ u.a eine beschränkte Hilfsverwaltung, eine ukrainische Hilfspolizei..." http://hsozkult.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/REZENSIO/buecher/2001/GreFr1101.htm

• http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal.org/text/x33/xm3329.html

Xx236 13:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps some Polish Ukrainians served in Blue Police for administrative reasons? There were Hilfspolizei units for almost every nation, but it is likely Germans used administrative, not only ethnic, criteria for their recruitment.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The Vilna ghetto link

Are there any Blue police photos there? Xx236 14:38, 3 December 2007 (UTC) No answer during three years.Xx236 (talk) 13:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Recognition by Polish government in exile?

The following fragment is very unclear and dubious, a quotation should be provided (the ref is this book, p.485 added by Halibutt ([1]): "However, as the force was primarily a continuation of the pre-war Polish police force, it also relied largely on pre-war regulations and laws, a situation that was accepted both by the Nazis and by the legitimate Polish authorities. The latter saw the existence of the Blue Police as a necessity". It's one thing to note that the Blue Police used some pre-war Polish regulations; it's another imply that the Blue Police was recognized by the Polish government in exile. Do note that the Polish Underground State had its own police force (National Security Corps and Wojskowa Służba Ochrony Powstania) and judiciary (Directorate of Civil Resistance, Special Courts). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This implies that the Blue Police was seen as a necessity by the Polish authorities and was not considered a criminal organization as such (nor was it seen as an element of German occupation force). As such, it was recognized by the Polish government, contrary to, say, Gestapo or Kripo whose activities on Polish soil were considered illegal by definition. BTW, I can't provide an exact citation as I gave the book back and the GB snippet doesn't seem to show any more. There's a similar quotation at page 13 though, still available from GB: (...) policja "granatowa" działała w znacznej mierze na podstawie przedwojennych przepisów prawnych i służbowych, a ponadto ciągłość przedwojennego aparatu bezpieczeństwa (w okresie wojny) była uznana zarówno przez okupanta, jak i prawowity rząd polski. Feel free to reword that. //Halibutt 19:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat on the same note, this sentence doesn't make much sense to me: "It was officially disbanded by the Polish Committee of National Liberation on August 27, 1944.[1][2]" - so when PKWN said "Blue Police, Disband!" they actually disbanded? Is there some context I'm missing? At the very least it's not very clear.radek (talk) 07:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Blue Police

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Blue Police's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Cherry":

• From Holocaust in Nazi-occupied Poland: Robert Cherry, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska, Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future, Rowman & Littlefield 2007, ISBN 0742546667
• From Polish death camp controversy: Robert Cherry, Annamaria Orla-Bukowska, Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future, Rowman & Littlefield 2007, ISBN 0742546667

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

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name of the Polish police

The police was German, not Polish.Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Einheimische Polizei ? What?Xx236 (talk) 12:53, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Unprecize lead "The Blue Police, more correctly translated as The Navy-Blue Police (Polish: Granatowa policja) was the popular name of the Polish police in the German occupied area of the Second Polish Republic, known as General Government", the page defines later:

• the area - GG in 1939 borders;
• not only ethnic Poles, but also Polish speaking Ukrainians.

The name Polnische Polizei was Nazi. We don't use Nazi langauge here.Xx236 (talk) 07:42, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

If that is what the NAZIs called them, then that is what we say the NAZIs called them. Britmax (talk) 09:11, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker, please explain what you mean. Xx236 (talk) 10:28, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

I have replaced the German unsourced name of pre-war police with the legal name Policja Państwowa.Xx236 (talk) 10:19, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

Polish Police of the General Government in the infobox is a translation of a Nazi name. We don't use Nazi language in this Wikipedia.Xx236 (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

When did the Blue Police become the "Blue Police"? Did they start wearing blue uniforms only after they were mobilized by the Germans, or had they worn blue uniforms before the war and were they now being specifically identified as "blue" in contrast to some other, differently-colored police working under the Germans? Nihil novi (talk) 08:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

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was the Polish police during the Second World War in German-occupied Poland (the General Government)

Should be rather was the police during the Second World War in the General Government (part of German-occupied Poland).

• There exists a controversy regarding Polish. There existed Polish underground police National Security Corps. Lemberg distict police was Ukrainian during some period.
• The police existed only in GG.
• Poland wasn't occupied according to law. It was criminally administered by Nazi Germany, but any explanation would be too long for a lead.

Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Revision as of 14:01, 28 March 2018 (edit) (undo) Icewhiz

I'm almost sure, many of you are frightened by the scale of histeria introduced by User:Icewhiz to Poland-related subjects in Wikipedia. This article is yet another example of the community's inability to deal with this virtually maddening onslaught of unreliable (and doctored) sources, rumours, hearsay, and raw emotion, dressed up as historical assessment of the Holocaust in Poland. Ringelblum wrote his diary in 1944 while in hiding with his Polish protectors. What he wrote was hearsay. A lot of what he heard was never confirmed afterwards (quote): "The blood of hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews, caught and driven to the “death vans” [in the “resettlement actions”] will be on their heads." Extreme emotion, without a single source from 70 years of postwar research. Text omitted by User:Icewhiz from the original by Ringlelblum spoke of Jewish police: "which behaved no better."[p. 135] — Ringlelblum wrote in the next sentence: "In the subsequent 'actions,' when the Jewish Order Service was liquidated as well, the Polish Police force was utilized." (end of quote). The police force utilized was called Orpo battalions, including the Reserve Police Battalion 101. — I feel deeply for Ringelblum's plight, but Wikpedia is an encyclopedia. We have to follow WP:NEUTRALITY guidelines and remove backdoor methods of inserting a non-neutral treatment of controversial subjects. Personally, I'm frightened by the cascade of concocted, hate-driven smears that have appeared in Poland-related articles since User:Icewhiz took over: "The blood of hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews ... will be on their heads." Is there anything we can do about such complete ignorance of Wikipedia principles? I cannot edit war with him about this. I tried ones, and I'm already traumatized, Poeticbent talk 16:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Ringlelblum is brought up by Grabowski who has studied and published on the Blue Police and is considered an expert in the field. The source cited is from 2016.Icewhiz (talk) 17:06, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Grabowski is an expert in accusing the Blue Police. He doesn't compare German terror in General Gouvernement and other occupied countries. One may believe everyone was heroic, only Poles/Blue Police were bad guys.

The Blue Police was hated by ethnic Poles. Both London/Underground State and the Communists decided to destroy the police after the liberation, but the Blue Police is describes here as Polish.Xx236 (talk) 07:07, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

• For fuck's sake, mate! Stop lying. You are quoting Ringlelblum, not Grabowski (link copy-paste from mainspace): https://books.google.co.il/books?id=42sz6MifjMEC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=ringelblum+%22the+blood+of+hundreds+of+thousands+of+Polish+Jews,+caught+and+driven+to+the%22&source=bl&ots=fJkdkKlZMj&sig=qr60XGndxxlvlsIuHto43SluWrA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjc-6rQtI7aAhVBriwKHWiWAukQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=ringelblum%20%22the%20blood%20of%20hundreds%20of%20thousands%20of%20Polish%20Jews%2C%20caught%20and%20driven%20to%20the%22&f=false Poeticbent talk 17:26, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• Grabowski is quoting Ringlelblum in his assessment, as an early but on the ground with direct access to events, assessment.Icewhiz (talk) 17:56, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

direct access - the Warsaw ghetto was isolated so Ringelblum had very limited access to knowledge about towns and villages.Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

This has been noticed alreadyPoeticbentThere are actually two of them, Icewhiz and François Robere Almost identical patterns of edits and comments, very very similar style of play, total focus on associating Poland and Poles to the responsibility for the Holocaust and collaboration with the Nazis. GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I see you're continuing this lovely discussion here. Neither of you is in a position to make comments about others' conduct. In a previous ANI Poeticbents' comments were described as "[reeking of] bad faith and shade... essentially polite incivility." [2] And Bella? She's pushing a pro-Polish narrative to everywhere, even when the sources are overwhelmingly against her. Most recent examples? She insisted for almost a month that Germany "failed to establish a puppet state in Poland", which is part of the Polish heroic narrative, despite several sources of hers that conclude that the Germans weren't even interested in one. Instead of admitting the claim was unfounded, she made a series of odd comments and appeals. She also removed this phrasing, which is well supported by sources, claiming that it's "just speculation". On a different facet of the Polish myth - that of antisemitism and persecution of Jews - she absolved Polish partisans from what the sources describe as assassination and kidnapping of Jewish compatriots, saying "I'm sure they fought back". Here's a similar edit, and here's another one where, for the sake of "slimming" the article, she just removes the entire section about partisan collaboration (which by then was full of apologetics, rather than facts). It goes on and on. She's trying to put a polite face, but she's actually exceedingly loyal to the popular Polish narrative, and the moment she loses her patience she shows it all too well.

Now stop gossiping and get back to work. François Robere (talk) 22:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Don't you pass the border between editing Wikipedia and having a mission?Xx236 (talk) 07:13, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

I was pinged here, I didn't follow anyone. If they're complaining as they do about another user, other editors might at least know where they're coming from. François Robere (talk) 03:09, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

The blood of hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews ... will be on their heads. https://books.google.co.il/books?id=42sz6MifjMEC&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=ringelblum+%22the+blood+of+hundreds+of+thousands+of+Polish+Jews,+caught+and+driven+to+the%22&source=bl&ots=fJkdkKlZMj&sig=qr60XGndxxlvlsIuHto43SluWrA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjc-6rQtI7aAhVBriwKHWiWAukQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=ringelblum%20%22the%20blood%20of%20hundreds%20of%20thousands%20of%20Polish%20Jews%2C%20caught%20and%20driven%20to%20the%22&f=false This is what Ringelblum said !! Stop this Icewhiz or I will report you myself because I'm tired of your manipulations. I'm serious! GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:22, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

This is what Ringleblum said:

the uniformed police has had a deplorable role in the “resettlement actions”. The blood of hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews, caught and driven to the “death vans” will be on their heads. ... In the subsequent “actions,” when the Jewish Order Service was liquidated as well, the Polish Police force was utilized.

[3]

We however, are sourcing this to Grabowski who has said:

For a Jew, falling into the hands of the Polish police meant, in practically all known cases, certain death. And death followed the Blue Policemen everywhere; Wodzisław, Opoczno, Warsaw, Biłgoraj, Węgrów, and Łochów were by no means unique. Neither were the methods used by the Polish police. The historical evidence—hard, irrefutable evidence coming from the Polish, German, and Israeli archives—points to a pattern of murderous involvement throughout occupied Poland. Emanuel Ringelblum, himself a victim of Polish detectives, suggested that the Polish policemen were responsible for the deaths of “hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews.

[4]

It would seems Grabowski is faithfully representing Ringleblum per the quote above from Ringleblum (replacing "The blood of ... driven to the “death vans” will be on their heads" - with "responsible for the deaths"), however we are attributing our passage (prior to your removal of most of it + the source - diff) in whole to Grabowski :

According to Jan Grabowski, a Jew falling into the hands of the Blue Police faced almost certain death. Grabowski further said that Emanuel Ringelblum suggested during the war that the Blue Police were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews. According to Grabowski the historical evidence from Polish, German, and Israeli archives "points to a pattern of murderous involvement throughout occupied Poland".

Entirely to Grabowski. You removed most of this content + the source. If you think the phrasing should be improved in some manner - I suggest you do so or suggest alternative phrasing here. However removed sourced content from a RS is not the way to go.Icewhiz (talk) 13:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

By error, corrected me even before you even posted this. BUT STOP manufacturing what Emanuel Ringelblum said !!! GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)Ringelblum

@GizzyCatBella: - thank you for this edit - now at least we are more focused on what is in dispute. I think that Grabowski further said that Emanuel Ringelblum suggested during the war that the Blue Police were responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews (what was in the article) is an adequate summary of Emanuel Ringelblum, himself a victim of Polish detectives, suggested that the Polish policemen were responsible for the deaths of “hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews.[5]. However, I am amenable to replacing this with a direct quote of Ringelblum - "The uniformed police has had a deplorable role in the “resettlement actions”. The blood of hundreds of thousands of Polish Jews, caught and driven to the “death vans” will be on their heads." and "The uniformed police [usually] maltreated captured Jews terribly" directly quoted from Ringelblum.[6] - do you prefer the latter?Icewhiz (talk) 13:48, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

YES, quote Ringelblum if you want, in a proper context, but for God sakes don't change phrasing I know that you have a strong opinion about the subject and you have a right to have one, but keep freaking in mind that there are people who are disagreeing with you. Respect that PLEASE. Thank you. GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:58, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

OK, will add direct quote of Ringelblum. Note - I did not change the phrasing - Grabowski did (though I think he correctly summarized the phrase - but if contentious - direct quote we shall go).Icewhiz (talk) 14:15, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

http://kompromitacje.blogspot.com/2011/08/jan-tomasz-gross-czyta-emanuela.html Xx236 (talk) 12:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

The blog post attempts to differentiate between direct murder - and responsibility for (or indirect killing). In most of the world, scholars look at responsibility - not direct killing - the question of who pulled the trigger being rather immaterial.Icewhiz (talk) 12:41, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Ukrainian Auxiliary Police

The two pages describe similar organisations, it's interesting to compare them.Xx236 (talk) 20:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Nazi propaganda

The police was German, the Polish police was National Security Corps. Polnische Polizei was a Nazi name. Please stop your Nazi propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 09:22, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Please compare German military administration in occupied France during World War II. also had at its disposal the support of the French authorities and police forces, who had to cooperate per the conditions set in the armistice Poland was occupied without any armisitice, without any limitations. Xx236 (talk) 09:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The Blue Police had little autonomy

What authonomy do you mean? The police was commanded by local German commanders. Any protest was cruelly punished.Xx236 (talk) 09:25, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Why three pictures?

There are three pictures showing the Blue Police and Orpo together. The BP was a part of the Orpo. Do we have any picture of Western police collaborating with the Nazis, which was a collaboration, not total terror and control like in occupied Poland? Xx236 (talk) 09:35, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The police wasn't Polish

It wasn't a Polish police. It was a German formation which drafted, later employed, mostly ethnic Poles. There existed a real underground Polish Police at that time National Security Corps.Xx236 (talk) 08:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Similar police forces ?

False, there existed rather pre-war police formations controlled by Germans. The statement should be sourced and two lists created - of pre-war police and a new one with drafted policemen. Xx236 (talk) 10:35, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Reichskommissariat of Belgium and Northern France

Belgian civil service:

Burgomasters and local government;

Belgian police and state security Xx236 (talk) 10:45, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

I have removed Similar police forces, based on local professional police, existed in all German-occupied European countries. The statement is unsourced. The lead should summarise the text, but the page doesn't not discuss such similarities. The subject is interesting but interdisciplinary. Xx236 (talk) 07:05, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Ethnicities

I don't have sources, but allegedly 700 policemen were Belarusians. Originally also 200 Ukrainians, who moved to Ukrainian police. Xx236 (talk) 06:11, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Wrong rank insignia

Although these rank insignia are from the Polish WP, they are false. They are not the ones depicted in the source (Littlehjon), but the ones used by the pre-war Polish police. Creuzbourg (talk) 07:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Polish police and orpo.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Is this reliable?

[7]: pl:Adam Leszczyński is likely reliable, but the pl wiki article also notes he is a founder of the OKO.press. Which is probably reliable too, but I am a bit concerned on whether we can consider an article by a founder of such a website on said website to be properly peer reviewed/not self-published. It likely would be better to cite the original book by Grabowski directly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:21, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn’t that fall under WP:SPS? Volunteer Marek 03:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: Probably not, but it may not meet WP:POLANDRS. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:20, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes it's Gunnar Paulsson

Re [8]. Yes the source [9] is by Gunnar Paulsson. Paulsson's middle name is Steven and he is sometimes listed under that name. But the first line of the source clearly states "Shoah historian, Steven Paulsson author of the award-winning Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945" Volunteer Marek 23:41, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Szymon Datner's opinion

One shouldn't cherry-pick this quote from the source, when Frydel indicates that this is a superseded assessment that has been challenged by recent research, and considering that the rest of his paper does not corroborate it. To pick one quote at random,

Accustomed to abusing and taking from locals during searches with little impunity, by the time the policemen were drawn into the ‘Judenjagd’ in mid-1942, many seized an opportunity that now carried no impunity: Stripping captured Jews of all wealth, a practice that often became an end-in-itself. The Blue Policemen thus frequently became the primary beneficiaries of valuables discovered on Jewish fugitives, fueling the self-fulfilling prophecy of fabled ‘Jewish gold’ during the war.[10]

(t · c) buidhe 11:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

What does the quote above have to do with Datner? You're doing WP:SYNTH. Again. Volunteer Marek 13:47, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Also, if you are going to remove text sourced to reliable sources from the article, as you did in this case, please mention that in the edit summary because otherwise your edit summary is misleading. Volunteer Marek 18:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

"Deportation of Jews" video and caption

There has been some back and forth about the video and its caption, starting with an attempt to remove it: [11].

The full caption from the USHMM reads:

• Deportation at railway station in Poland (unknown location). CU, women with glasses and kerchief on the train platform. MS, families of Jews, some with bundles and armbands dressed in suits, walk towards the camera beside railway cars. SS-Schutze and tall Polish Blue policeman escorts another column by gunpoint.

Source: Deportation of Jews, USHMM. --K.e.coffman (talk) 18:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman

Ealier modification justification:

From the source:

SS-Schutze and tall Polish Blue policeman escorts another column by gunpoint. In this order, not the other way around.

Then look below the clip:

Event: Summer 1942? - notice the question mark, hence "possible summer 1942"

Please correct it back to reflect the source.

Remaining issues:

Expand the "Administrative History" tab below the clip:

• The Film and Video Archive has not successfully identified the location of this deportation footage, and the film may be comprised of scenes from several different train platforms or locations, and may have been filmed and/or produced by the Nazis. We also need confirmation that this shows deportation of "Poles" other than Polish Jews. According to Raye Farr on 11/14/00: It is possible these Jewish people are from the Warsaw ghetto, but what we see in the footage is not within the physical area of the Warsaw ghetto. Also, at this time in the Umschlagplatz, the assembly point in Warsaw from which people selected for deportation were then dispatched to the trains, there were cobblestones on the ground and trees were not visible. According to a shotlist from Filmoteka Narodowa, the Jews are being deported to Auschwitz concentration camp.

Issue one - The film has been produced by the Nazis. How do we know it wasn't for a propaganda purpose? Blue Police didn't participate in deportations to my knowledge (will double-check with sources later) Jewish Ghetto Police was ordered to carry this task. (you can even see that in the movie The Pianist) -->[12]

Issue two - They can't confirm if the entire clip is showing the deportation of only Jews or Poles as well.

Please discuss below. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:03, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Given that this could be - per source - a staged Nazi propaganda film, I don’t see a good reason to include it. The only other possibility is to explain in detail in the caption the nature and uncertainty of the film but that would be too long. Also, images are suppose to illustrate text. It’s not clear what text this is illustrating. Volunteer Marek 00:53, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

We should note that the source may be from a propaganda footage, but isn't this still somewhat useful for showing a Blue Police member involved in the deportation of Jews? As long as we note this could be a still from a staged event, it is somewhat relevant. Unless we have a policy of not using Nazi propaganda images at all? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:41, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus - I disagree. That clip insinuated Blue Police was involved in the deportation of Jews. Do we have sources the Blue Police was broadly required to assist in the deportations of Jews? No, we don’t. Ghetto Police were forced to do that task, it's a known fact. 3-second footage of a Blue Policemen discovered on some Nazi video that could be Nazi propaganda, means nothing and is WP:OR. - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:24, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

You are right that it would be good to find a scholarly analysis of this. Whether it exists... still, I think that the picture may be useful, as long as the potential fakeness of it is acknowledged in the caption. If movies were not copyrighted, and the scene was from a Hollywood movie, would you oppose using it? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:08, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Interesting case that some of you are making, gentlemen! The article Warsaw Uprising also features numerous photographs made by the Nazis: are we gonna erase them as well? Or is it only that we need to erase all images that vaguely point at Polish participation in the Holocaust?Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 01:14, 26 October 2021 (UTC) — Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk · contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Miacek (talk · contribs).

There’s an obvious difference. What those photos are isn’t disputed. This clip here? No one really knows what it is. Volunteer Marek 05:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Death penalty for the policemen

Sigh (lost my analysis due to browser crash, restarting).

Regarding the claim that the policemen were recruited "under threat of death" that was recently questioned at Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Blue_Police_in_Poland, I concur it is dubious. I tagged it with verification needed and it should likely be changed. Or changed back - this piece of info was introduced by an anon in 2008 [13].

I did find some sources that do say there was a death penalty for disobeying orders or such, I'll add some quotations/sources below for editors interested in expanding this article:

• Marek Getter (1996): "Policja Polska w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie 1939-1945", Przegląd Policyjny nr 1-2, Wydawnictwo Wyższej Szkoły Policji w Szczytnie [14] W wypadku „samowolnego opuszczenia służby przez członków policji cudzoziemskiej w GG", utraty broni, bądź munduru sprawa była traktowana jako przestępstwo polityczne i groziła obozem koncentracyjnym lub karą śmierci translated In the case of "arbitrary leaving of the service by members of the foreign police in the GG", the loss of weapons or uniforms, the case was treated as a political crime and was punishable by a concentration camp or the death penalty "foreign police in the GG" refers to Blue Police (and possibly some other formations?). The article also implies this regulation was introduced in 1942.
• Piątek, Monika. "Działalności tzw.„policji granatowej” w Generalnym Gubernatorstwie." ROCZNIK POLSKO-UKRAIŃSKI TOM XX: 111. [15] Osoby, które zwlekały z wykonaniem zadań wydalano ze służby, bądź skazywano na śmierć.. Translated: People who delayed their tasks were dismissed from service or sentenced to death. People refers to Blue Policemen.

_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:52, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Real name Wincenty Słoma, a Reichdeutscher formerly in the Austrian police

Why did a Reichs German have a Polish name? Why did a Reichs German serve in the Austrian police? Creuzbourg (talk) 23:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

AFAIK he was born in Austria, he changed his name during the war to Vincenz Edler von Strohe Marcelus (talk) 00:02, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Was that in Austrian Galicia or in Austria "proper"? Did he became a Reichs German after Anschluss? Creuzbourg (talk) 17:42, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but my Polish source said simply "Austria" so I assume it means proper Austria, Galicia would never be called that way Marcelus (talk) 18:35, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Is this Wincenty Strohe/Wincenty Strohe the same guy? Then we have the answers there! Creuzbourg (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

It's the same guy, but I don't really see an answer there Marcelus (talk) 15:42, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

The source (Marek) is wrong. This is said in the Blue Police article: Major Vincenz Edler von Strohe (real name Wincenty Słoma, a Reichdeutscher formerly in the Austrian police). See text in Polish article about Wincenty Strohe: In the records of the Polish Army he was listed as Wincenty Strohe, without the "de" prefix, while in the records of the K.K. Landwehr as Vinzenz Edler von Strohe. When informing about Major Strohe's acceptance of the status of Reichsdeutscher, Marek Getter drew the erroneous conclusion that his Polish name was "Wincenty Słoma".

• He wasn't in the Austrian police. He was an officer in a Landwehr-Regiment from Nowy Sacz in Austrian Poland.
• His name in Austria was Vinzenz Edler von Strohe.
• In Poland he called himself Wincenty de Strohe, although the Army rolls dropped the pretentious 'de'.
• He became a Reichsdeutscher after the German occupation of Poland.

The text should read like this: Major Vinzenz Edler von Strohe (Polish name Wincenty Strohe) a former officer in the Austrian Landwehr who had been an officer in the Polish Army, and received German citizenship after the occupation of Poland. Creuzbourg (talk) 14:35, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Of course, a problem is that the source (Marek) doesn't say that. Creuzbourg (talk) 17:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)