Talk:Bjelopavlići

In general why don’t you open your own Albanian page for what you think Palbardi clan is? Bjelopavlic clan based on DNA descend from the man who was born around 1220 in area controlled by Hungarians. He and many others settled in Zeta during the reign queen Helen of Serbia. DNA migration map is very clean. It does not allow history manipulation. Your history is based on some names from 15th century that just mention some Pal Bardi in Skadar document. That Pal Bardi is born 200 years after Bjeli Pavle. We, the Bjelopavlic clan do not have any connection with that man. In our speech, which is very well documented in the book Govor Bjelopavlica by Dr Drago Cupid [1] We have Italian, Turkish words but non Albanian. Your desire to put as as part of your sick dream is pointless. I will complain to wiki and raise concern about your ideas abut the ways of promoting idea about so called Great Albania.

Bjelopavlići old SerbIan tribe.

They were an old SerbIan tribe. Four sources talk about Bjelopavlići as Albanian tribe and they do not mention Bjelopavliće as Serbian tribe. It would be good if this fact is adjusted with sources(RS).Mikola22 (talk) 18:09, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

@Mikola22:, I reverted back to the previous version that contains the material your wrote. However, I deleted the Fine source as he does not say that the tribe is/was Albanian. Can you give a quote of the Elsie source? On the other source, is "Bilopavlovići" same as "Bjelopavlići". I have a feeling that in general the tribe is seen as Montenegrin rather than Albanian or Serbian. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:14, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Not really, as Bjelopavlići are from Brda region, which makes them Highlanders and not Montenegrins (historically). Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 19:52, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Sadko, if you have reliable sources feel free to add content. The identity of a good part of Montenegro's population is a complex matter with fluid identities. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: Yes, you're right this source mentions the Montenegrin tribe, When Pasha of Herzegovina attack city of Kotor 1657, Albanian tribes of Klimenti and Bjelopavlići also participated in this battle This is the first information from source I edit and then I used this information(Albanian), are they Albanians from Montenegro or Albanians from Albania it is not quite clear if we follow this source. As for "John V. A. Fine, 1994, The Late Medieval Balkans" I made a mistake here but I think I had that information somewhere but probably in another book. I'll try to find that information.Mikola22 (talk) 20:13, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

That and could as well mean that the author separates Klimenti and Bjelopavlići. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 20:46, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

But, after a resistant defence by local people, supported by the Venetian navy, which included Governor General Bernardo, the Ottomans gave up the siege. The Albanian tribes of the Klimenti and Bilopavlovići also participated in this fight but their rebellion against their Ottoman masters was soon to be oppressed.The governor general was to describe this extraordinary defence in his report to the Venetian government as his first military campaign after taking on his duty. He continued to support the Albanian tribes, especially the Paštrovići, Maini and Pobori by sending them supplies of grain and wood so they could rebuild some houses in the town of Budva I think this source talk about Albanian tribes.Mikola22 (talk) 20:58, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to take 100% part in this conversation because I'm working on other articles about tribes right now, but allow me to give you my honest opinion as someone who has been working for quite a while on these subjects: i)work with specialized bibliography. You will not find anything worth adding to this article with some random book that mentions this community in its 400+ pages ii)these tribes were not of one single origin in many cases. They formed from different communities, some of whom had different ethnicities (Slavic, Albanian, Vlach) and settled in that area in different waves of settlement. iii)Usually, the last wave of settlement in a region happens to form the majority today. For example, in Mrkojevići the old community, pravi Mrkojevići of Slavic Orthodox, but also some Catholic Albanian anthroponymy forms a very small part of the region. Most are actually descendants of families that moved there in the 19th century. So, don't go on thinking that if you find a "White Paul" in the 14th or 15th century, it actually means that his descendants live there now. iv) Start by adding the demographic data. Bjelopavlići is on page 123 of the translation of the defter of Shkodra by Selami Pulaha (1975). v)in Albanian they are known as Palabardhi (written in Latin as Palabardi). There are enough sources online if you find that useful for the readers. vi)Luska zupa in the article is related to the Lužani (ignore the article, it's bad). That may also be useful to have in the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 02:02, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Ragusas archive from 1411 are specific and talks about Bjelopavlici not Palabardi. Simo Ljubic 1881 published Skadarski zemljisnik based on Venetian archives. Pal Bardhi mentioned there is more than century younger than Bjeli Pavle and most likely do not have any relationship. Venetian noted only loyal people in this document, not the one who were against them. Some Ljubic also published Venetian document where Bjelopavlic are specifically mentioned. Bjelopavlic1965 (talk) 20:35, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Bjelopavlic DNA tree

Bjelopavlic1965 (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Albanian Origin

@Boki As per MOS:LEAD, the fact that the tribe is of Albanian origin (which is very clearly explained and described in the article) is integral to their existence and an important contextual fact. As such, it should be included within the first line of the lead. Botushali (talk) 15:38, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for Elsie's link, which says that they could have been Albanians, "at least in part". But unfortunately, Bjelopavlići were the least of each of these tribes to bear Albanian names. Check Pulaha's defter, check every PS that ever mentionted them, check most RS like Đurđev, you will never find such an information. Bjelopavlići were not even mixed, nor can we say that they were of Vlach origin. And, certainly not Albanian. Boki (talk) 21:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Even DNA analysis proves that the clan is not of Albanian origin. Migration of Bjeli Pavle to Zeta happened in 13th century, when Queen Helen the Anjou ruled the region. Oral history confirms that too. Pavle origins were in Ungaria, and Helen came from the same region. Pavle’s descendants from 14th century can be found in Montenegro(Serbs/Montenegrins), Kosovo(Bosniak) and South Albania. This is also coherent with original oral tradition. DNA results also proves that Bjelopavlici do not have any close relation with other clans that bear haplogroup E, whether the clans are integrated in Albanian or any of Slavic nations. The article presents authors intention for Greater Albania, which we know in history never existed, nor will exist. Bjelopavlic1965 (talk) 20:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)