Talk:Bill Shankly/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Meetthefeebles (talk · contribs) 14:25, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I'll review. Before I do so, I notice that the article was nominated by an IP, rather than a registered user. Can I just check that there is someone available to respond to any issues? A little note on this page will suffice...Meetthefeebles (talk) 14:25, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I have an hour spare after work here, so I'll make a start:

• Disambiguation Links: None found
  
• Dead Links: All fine on the checking tool, will comment further when spot-checking refs later.
  
• Quick Fail issues: No evidence of edit-warring, lots of references, no cleanup banners that I can see at first read, no ongoing content issues (subject has been dead for decades now).
  
• Images: The infobox image is licensed under the fair use license and is probably okay, the memorial image is from geograph and is fine, the Shankly scarf img is also fair use licensed and is probably okay (though the link to the original source is dead) and the Shankly statute img is from flickr and is fine as licensed.

Okay, I'll work my way through the article and add comments below:

• The lead is okay, but I'd like to see some mention perhaps of his early life. If it relevant and interesting enough to have a detailed section on it (and it is, having now read it), then a note in the lead might be best. Suggest adding something to the start of paragraph two? (Something like "Shankly, one of five brothers who played football professionally, was a ball winning right hal..." or somthing similar)
• FA Cup is blue-linked twice in the lead. Once will suffice and one should be removed. Ditto Football League First Division (per WP:OVERLINK).
• Suggest slight rewrite to sentence "Shankly's parents, John and Barbara lived in one of the Auchenstilloch Cottages with their family of ten, five boys and five girls" Perhaps "Shankly's parent, John and Barbara, lived in one of the Auchenstilloch Cottages with their ten children; five boys and five girls."?
• I don't think postman needs to be blue-linked. Suggest removal.
• "Preston recovered by reaching the 1938 FA Cup Final in which they defeated Huddersfield Town 1–0 with a penalty scored by George Mutch in the final minute of extra time." Suggest a slight rewrite to start of the sentence (I'm not sure a team recovers by reaching a cup final two years after losing one); "Preston recovered to reach the..." would be better I think?
• Can we add his boxing weights to a conversion template and state in pounds and kg instead of stones? Perhaps use 159 pounds (72 kg) and 6 pounds (2.7 kg)? This would assist the reader not familiar with British imperial measurements of weight.
• Suggest blue-linking WRAF.
• "The great Tom Finney": this is probably WP:PEACOCK (though as a football fan I agree that Tom Finney was, in fact, great!), and the peacock word should be removed.
• Remove the 'But' from the sentence "But Shankly's departure from Preston was resented...".
• Another small suggestion: "He made a speculative shot goalwards from 50 yards and the ball bounced over the England goalkeeper's head and into the net." "Making a speculative shot" sounds a bit odd; suggest simply "He took a speculative shot goalwards..."
• This little section is a little odd. On the one hand, Shankly's goal does sound unusual, but to describe it as "probably the strangest national goal ever" seems like hyperbole even if the source is reliable (and this one seems to be, just). I'm also not really sure what the 'Joe Mercer identification on the tele' adds to the article or why his having spotted him is notable or deserving of a quotation stating that he was so spotted.
• "Shankly was famous for his dedication to football. For example, during the summer of 1933 after completing his first season as a professional, he returned to Glenbuck where he continued to do his own training. Being an early exponent of the long throw-in he would practice by throwing balls over a row of houses and getting the small boys of the village to fetch them back for him" This sentence is a verbatim reproduction of a paragraph in the source material (at ref.23) and requires an urgent rewrite using close paraphrasing (and maintaining the reference link to the original) to prevent a copyright issue arising.
• Where in ref.53 does it state anything to the effect that "Without him, Carlisle slipped back into non-contention"? That sentence either needs some proper support or should be removed.
• I am not sure that "pick up a few bargain buys" is an encyclopedic phrase. Suggest a slight rewrite; "some players for low transfer fees" or similar, perhaps?
• "but finished second, only three points...": the 'only' is a touch WP:PEACOCK and borderline contrary WP:NPOV. Suggest removal.
• "Shankly insisted that his Grimsby team was: "Pound for pound, and class for class, the best football team I have seen in England since the war. In the league they were in they played football nobody else could play. Everything was measured, planned and perfected and you could not wish to see more entertaining football". This seems odd considering his team had were playing in the third division and had failed to win promotion; is it likely that Shankly's view that his side was that good is reliable? I think Bill might have been a little biased in his view here and for balance a reliable, third party viewpoint on the merits of his Grimsby side would help ensure WP:NPOV
• "Shankly also had...a successful method of counter-attacking from corners conceded..." Again, is Bill a reliable source on how 'successful' his own counter-attacking method was? A reliable, third party source would be much better here.
• Just reading "Grimsby had an ageing team which finished a disappointing 5th in 1952–53 after a bright start." highlights my concern re: the early 'pound for pound and class for class' quote. Either they played football no-one else could play, measured planned and perfected (in Bill's opinion) or they were an ageing side who failed again to win promotion the very next season (in Kelly's opinion). It is difficult to see how they can be both.
• "Although Workington is a remote place in football terms": this could do with a reference.
• "But Workington operated on a shoestring..." The 'But' is superfluous- suggest removal.
• "The situation led to "numerous arguments"." This sentence lacks context: with who was he arguing? The manager of the rugby team? The players? The board?
• Describing Ray Wilson and Dennis Law as 'outstanding' is again probably WP:PEACOCK: the source doesn't describe them as such (even if I would agree that both did become very good players). Suggest removal of 'outstanding'.
• There is nothing in the source at ref.68 which supports "Another outstanding prospect in his team was left back Ray Wilson who went on to become Huddersfield's most capped player before joining Everton."

Okay, I've managed to get as far as the start of his Liverpool days and there are a few issues above to consider. In light of the above, and the fact that the nomination came from an IP address, I'll stop here and wait for a response from the nominator. Meetthefeebles (talk) 23:03, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I was the nominator. I like your review which is much more detailed than the previous one. This has the potential to be a good article but we need to iron out the creases and I admit there are many of those as the article was really a draft that needed more than one review to get it right. My aim is to get the article to at least GA standard before Bill's birth centenary next year. If we can make it better than GA, who knows, it could one day make FA. So, happy to work with you and I'll make a start now. All the best.

By the way, geolocate my IP and you will find it is both unerringly accurate (though only I know that) and not a million miles from Glenbuck. --81.132.89.114 (talk) 19:49, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

These questions and concerns were very easily resolved and I have addressed all of them in agreement with the points raised. Please check what I have done and let me know if any of the changes are not what you envisaged. Meanwhile, I look forward to your review of Shankly's career at Liverpool. Thank you very much for your time and diligence. --81.132.89.114 (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, the IP makes sense now! I'm otherwise engaged in another review at this very moment but I have an afternoon off work tomorrow so will look over the changes and continue my review then. I enjoyed reading the article to half-way and look forward to finishing it off tomorrow :) Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, let's crack on here...

• "The training ground at Melwood was "a shambles" and the club was overburdened with average players, though with some excellent prospects in the reserves". This sentence is dangerous close to a word-for-word copy of the source and in any event isn't very encyclopedic. Suggest a rewrite: perhaps "The Liverpool squad inherited by Shankly consisted largely of average players and some promising reserves."
• Try to avoid starting sentences with a 'but'.
• This 'kinship' sentence isn't especially encyclopedic. I'd suggest a rewrite: perhaps "In spite of the difficulties he inherited, Shankly felt immediately at home in his new club and he believed that he shared an immediate bond with the supporters." or similar?
• To avoid repetition of 'immediately', change the immediately in the next sentence to 'quickly'?
• "The importance of Shankly's relationship with Paisley cannot be overstated"– this sentence is borderline contrary to WP:NPOV and can be removed as a more encyclopedic explanation immediately follows it.
• Whilst I completely agree that the LFC boot room was indeed 'legendary', WP:PEACOCK prevents the use of that word so it will have to come out.
• "Although Shankly found he had a great team on the coaching side, the team on the pitch had major problems." This reads a little journalistic and might be better with a slight rewrite. Perhaps "Although Shankly believed he had inherited an excellent coaching staff, the playing staff were not so impressive– indeed, Shankly said of the latter..." and then lead into the quote you have provided?
• Again, the next sentence could be more encyclopedic– 'deadwood' isn't a particularly neutral term, for example. Perhaps "To deal with what he saw as a below average playing squad, twenty four players were placed on the transfer list and all of these had left the club within one year."
• I would add a little context to the "Liverpool's eventual success was based..." by starting with "According to author Stephen Kelly, Liverpool's eventual success..."
• Suggest adding 'at' between 'the' and 'heart' in the sentence "5-a-sides were at the heart of..."
• Suggest changing 'experimentation' to simply 'experimenting'.
• Instead of 'which thereafter became the basis', suggest simplifying to 'which formed the basis'?
• I think Littlewoods could be blue linked?
• When did Sawyer join the board? The sentence as is reads a little vague, so a year would be nice or even 'had recently been appointed to the Liverpool F.C. board'?
• "the tune was still..." isn't especially encyclopedic. Suggest rewrite to 'the board's initial response was that..." or similar? Also, removed the word 'outstanding' to describe the players as this violates WP:NPOV
• Not sure how a team can be "ready for promotion" so suggest a slight rewrite. Otherwise, this paragraph is fine.
• I word slightly reword 'gain in strength'. Perhaps 'improve' or perhaps 'and Shankly continued to add to his squad, signing wing half Willie...'
• Again, as outstanding as the young players were, an encyclopedia wouldn't describe them as such. We could describe them as 'future England internationals Ian Callaghan...'?
• "drubbing" might be construed as a scare quote and I would suggest we remove and simply add a neutral term like 'defeated'.
• I would paraphrase the sentence "Shankly spoke of "many proud moments" in his career, "but that was the greatest day"" to something along the lines of "In his autobiography, Shankly recounted that among his many achievements, winning the 1965 FA Cup was his greatest day".
• "Liverpool lost 3–0 and went out of the competition 4–3 on aggregate but Shankly maintained that two of Inter's goals were illegal.[106] The Liverpool website goes further than that by saying: "(Liverpool were) only denied at the semi-final stage due to a dishonest referee in Milan".[78] But, according to Kelly, video evidence shows that the two disputed goals were actually legitimate." This section doesn't quite read right. I'd suggest instead: "'The second leg at the San Siro, however, was according to Shankly "a war", which Liverpool lost 3–0 and so were knocked out of the competition 4–3 on aggregate. Eleven years later, Shankly maintained that two of Inter's goals were illegal,[106] and even today the Liverpool website describes the match by saying that "(Liverpool were) only denied at the semi-final stage due to a dishonest referee in Milan".[78] According to Kelly, however, video evidence shows that the two disputed goals were actually legitimate."
• Add the info about the Inter fans going mad to the end of the rewritten paragraph above, then talk about the league performance.
• I would suggest a rewrite of the league performance sentence and remove the quote. There are a lot of quotes at this point and you have to be careful with WP:QUOTEFARM. I'd simply paraphrase, stating that the drop in league position that season has been explained by one source as being resultant from the exertion of the lengthy participation in both the FA Cup and European Cups (or something similar to that).
• Again, to maintain a WP:NPOV, I'd remove "maintained a high standard" and simply lead with "Liverpool regained the first division title in the 1966–7 season and reached..."
• In the sentence " Shankly did not recognise the need for change although he pursued Blackpool teenager Emlyn Hughes as a future prospect and finally signed him for £65,000 in February 1967.", who said that there was a need for change and is that consistent with him then trying to sign a new player?
• Did Shankly describe Ajax as a great team in the making? If so, state this to prevent WP:NPOV (and again, as a football fan I am very much aware that the Ajax team of that era went on to become a wee bit useful!).
• 'Destroying' and 'thrashing' are not encyclopedic and need to be replaced with something less sensationalist.
• "Although Shankly claimed to have been "undeterred" by the Ajax defeat, he acknowledged that "we were examining the team and planning ahead".[110] But, according to Liverpool's own site, "Shankly's mistake now was to let the side rumble on without any major rebuilding for a season or two too long" Again, there are too many quotes here and I would suggest that some paraphrasing to remove the quotes, particularly the last one, which isn't particularly well written and can probably be put in better terms anyway.
• How is a career 'retarded'? Again, a paraphrase might be better here?
• I suggest removing " Otherwise, as the Liverpool site points out, he "let the (same) side rumble on" until..." Having read a little further on, the real breaking point appears to come later.
• "breaking point" isn't especially encyclopedic, so I'd remove this and instead start by stating the date of the 'humiliating' FA Cup loss to Watford; "On X XX 1970, Liverpool played struggling..."
• What is 'the Liverpool History records'? This doesn't appear to be referenced.
• "The Liverpool site summarises the situation by saying: "Shankly's allegiance to his older players harked back to the dying days of his own playing career (when) he believed he had been put on the shelf years too early".[114]" I don't think this adds a lot to this section and suggest removal?
• Suggest changing "to the very experienced Leeds" to " a very experienced Leeds United side."
• Take out "did not have what was needed to win"; the sentence will read better I think as "experience was the key factor and Shankly's young side were beaten 2-1 by league champions Arsenal despite having taken the lead in extra time through a Steve Heighway goal."
• I don't think that "important addition" needs a quote as you pretty much explain yourself straight afterwards.
• "missed out on winning..." rather than "missed winning"?
• Again, remove the "great" before Bobby Moore (and again, I agree entirely that he was, but descriptive, peacock terms are not allowed on wiki).
• "Belated" looks like a WP:PEACOCK term and should be removed I think.
• Replace "stormed into a two goal lead" with Borussia took a two goal lead inside (X) minutes".

Okay, that took me quite a while so I'm going to take a little break and let you have a look at that lot... Meetthefeebles (talk) 21:03, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

An excellent detailed review. I agree with all the points made, plus a couple of additional tweaks of things I've spotted myself, and all the changes are now in the article. I look forward to your review of the later sections. Thanks again. --81.132.89.114 (talk) 12:57, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Right, lets see if we can't finish this one off...

• The first paragraph of the section 'relationship with fans' consists almost entirely of quotations. I'd leave the first quotation in (though I would take out the part in brackets) and then try to paraphrase the rest.
• The rest of that section is fine, though.
• I don't think the "now is the time" quote really adds much to the article and can be removed, leaving the sentence to state that he could leave in 1974 with no regrets.
• "when he realised Shankly was serious this time, he tried and make him change his mind": suggest replacing the 'and' with 'to'.
• "It may be argued that Liverpool's treatment of Shankly seems shameful on the face of it, but were they not putting the best interests of the club and its new manager first by following the same relentless winning ethic that Shankly himself had instilled?": an encyclopedia should not be asking questions, so this will need a rewrite. Suggest something like "Whilst the treatment of Shankly might have seemed disrespectful, it was merely a continuation of the ruthless winning ethic that he had himself installed within the club."
• We can describe Matt Busby as legendary, even though he is!
• Change "unlocked" to simply 'opened.
• Take 'but is essentially' out before the 'life or death' quotation.
• The next sentence doesn't read quite right. Suggest "Kelly points out that, although it was said half jokingly, so far as Shankly was concerned there was a degree of truth to what was said. Shankly had fully realised..."
• Take out the socialism quote: you have effectively paraphrased this just fine before you cite the verbatim quote. You don;t need both and the article is already laden with quotes.

Okay, I think that's everything. Overall there are still probably a few too many quotes but I'll give the article another once over once these last issues are addressed. Meetthefeebles (talk) 11:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks once again for the review. I think I've addressed all the points you've raised but I'm conscious of your view that the article has too many quotes. Can I ask you to read through it again, now that all the amendments are in place, to check for any typos and also to call out any other quotes which don't add value. I think the reason for so many quotes is because of the autobiography being used as one of the three main sources. On balance, I think now that autobiographies should perhaps be used only a supporting source. Anyway, I look forward to your further advices. --81.132.89.114 (talk) 19:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

A comprehensive, well-referenced, well-illustrated article.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I've assessed this article against the requirements of WP:WIAGA and, in the light of improvements carried out, I'm awarding GA-status. Congratulations!

Whilst I think the article is deserving of GA, I do think there is a way to go if this one is eventually to end up at WP:FAC. There is an awful lot of quoting going one which isn't really necessary. Have a look at the first paragraph of the early life section where I have removed most of the superfluous quotes and paraphrased instead for an example of what needs to be done. See WP:QUOTEFARM for guidance on this. Once the quotes have been stripped out I would suggest the next logical step is WP:PR, where another editor can give more detailed assistance on making the article better. A full consideration of prose might also be helpful, and you could consider asking the fine men and women of WP:GOCE to take a look at the article?

Good luck with further improving what is an important football article. Meetthefeebles (talk) 10:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)