Talk:Bernhard Caboga-Cerva

Incorrect name Kabudzic Crijevic

Please explain why the family name Caboga/Kaboga is repeatedly being reverted to an incorrect name Kabudzic. Additionally no sources are quoted to support this claim.

Is this original research? Can these claims be verified? I tried finding a reliable source for the name Kabudzic, but I couldn't find one.

The name Caboga has been established since the 1280's in the Republic of Ragusa(see Irmgard Manhken citation in article House of Caboga, first mention of Caboga documents in the Dubrovnik archives). There are no documents where Bernhard Caboga is named Bernhard Kabudzic Crijevic. In his will he is named Bernhard Caboga without Cerva. So why is the name Cerva or a Slavic version Crijevic placed to his name? Again I could not verify this information. Please cite a reliable source for this.

The name in this article should be Bernhard Caboga, the name the man was born with (birth certificate) and the name he died with (will). Nothing else.

As you might know ( I am pasting the below from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability the Wikipedia Verifiability page):

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. The others are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should familiarize themselves with all three

The name Kabudzic does not appear in any legal documents (birth or marriage certificates, wills,contracts, ....) or relevant peer-reviwed academic publications in journals and books or on any landmarks (buildings, palaces, tombstones) with relevance to the Caboga family in Dubrovnik. Additionally the name Kabudzic is not mentioned in any documents in the Dubrovnik archives.

The city of Dubrovnik has offices and representative halls in the Caboga palace across the street from the Rectors palace. In press releases and documents from the city of Dubrovnik, Kaboga, the croatian rendering of Caboga is used. The Dubrovnik museum also uses the name Kaboga. The Croatian Ministry of Culture in its offical documets also uses the name Kaboga. Croatian historians past and present use the Kaboga version. All the locals also use the name Caboga. There is even a Kaboga ulica (street) in old city of Dubrovnik.

So where does the name Kabudzic come from?

Caboga (talk) 19:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Brno Kabudžić as incorrect version of the name Bernhard Caboga

Direktor What is going on here? There is no consensus regarding Kabudzic. Again incorrect editing is taking place. You are not discussing just editing at your own will with no sources or references. And why are pages being moved to this incorrect names? This is getting ridiculous. There is no encyclopedic reference on "Brno Kabudzic" so please tell us where did you get this name from?Caboga (talk) 13:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Please be patient. We'll get to the bottom of this soon enough. In the meantime, can you provide Croatian sources that the proper Dubrovnikan name is "Kaboga" and not "Kabudžić"? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Direktor did you forget to sign off on the above? Please explain what do you mean by Dubrovnikan? This is a wording I have never come across in publications, so I would like to understand what you are refering to in your question? Since you introduced Kabudzic in September 2008 I have asked you to mention your source for this name but never got an answer. I also did research and there is no name Kabudzic found in publications. Kaboga has been used by Croatian historians and state institutions. There is even a M. Kaboga street in the old city of Dubrovnik next to the market square. For now I am including sources for the Kaboga street name in the old city part of Dubrovnik (in Croatian it is written "Marojice Kaboge") [1] 302 hits

Here is an excerpt from the above google search [2] Old Town ( Dubrovnik). Address:. Marojice Kaboge 8. Number of beds:. 4 + 2 additional ... Marojice Kaboge 8. 20000 Dubrovnik. Croatia. +38

[3] MANSION - MAROJICE KABOGE 2-4 Area: 785 m2 Duration of works: rujan 1989. – 1990. godine. Designs made by: Marija Obradovć, arch., "GP Dubrovnik" Contractor: GP "Dubrovnik" Supervision: Jurica Carić, arch., Institute for the Restoration of Dubrovnik Construction foreman: Jurica Carić, arch., Institute for the Restoration of Dubrovnik

This is in Croatian, a blog about street names [4]

ulica u povijesnoj gradskoj jezgri dubrovnika;

ulica marojice kaboge je 'slijepa ulica' koja vodi od straduna preko ulice od puča. računa se da je naknadno zazidana, radi izgradnje jedne palače. marojica kaboga(1630-1693) bio je dubrovački plemić, zaslužan za obnovu dubrovnika nakon velikog potresa 1667. godine. zanimljivost vezana uz ovo ime je to što je imenovani u doba potresa bio osuđen i utamničen u kneževu dvoru, jer je s nekoliko plemića kovao uroru protiv austrije i turaka. dvor koji je bio srušen u potresu ga je zatrpao. spašen iz ruševina, a u vrijeme kad je dubrovačko pčemstvo desetkovano, postavljen je za zapovjednika odreda koji je onemogućavao pljačku; tražio i pronalazio pomoć i postigao da se iz ruševina i pepela Grad postupno obnovi još za njegova života.

[5] Palata Bunića u ulici Marojice Kaboge u Dubrovniku / Duško Živanović.

UDK: 725.171

• Palače
• Dubrovnik
• Palaces

U: Anali Zavoda za povijesne znanosti Istraživačkog centra Jugoslavenske akademije znanosti i umjetnosti u Dubrovniku. Sv. 24/25 (1987). - str. 73-85.

[6] Listing from the City of Dubrovnik Folklorni ansambl Linðo Marojice Kaboge 12 20 000 Dubrovnik, HR Tel: +385 (0)20 324 023 Fax: +385 (0)20 323 535

On the other hand, here is google search for Kabudzic from Croatia

[7]

Nisu pronađene standardne web stranice koje sadržavaju sve unešene pojmove za pretraživanje.

Pretraga - Kabudžić - nije pronašla niti jedan dokument.

Translated: no document with the word Kabudžić found.

Google search Kaboga from Croatia

[8]

602 hits

Google search Kaboge (as in the street name writing)from Croatia

[9]

527 hits

There are no hits for Kabudžić from Croatia while for Kaboga there are at least 500. So can you please explain what is going on?

Please tell us where did you source the name Kabudzic as well as the name Brno for Feldmarschalleutant Bernhard Caboga who was a high ranking Austrian officer as well as a member of Austrian nobility married to Wanda Potocka. I have found no such reference. Caboga (talk) 20:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(Yes that's me above, sry) When I say "Dubrovnikan (language)", I mean the language the vast majority of the inhabitants of the city of Dubrovnik have been speaking for hundreds of years (and still are): South Slavic. No other language can claim it is "Dubrovnikan" in any context earlier back than 500 years.

Ok :) You've made your case. However, since I'm not that informed about the Kaboga family, I'd like to hear more comments on the subject. Could you wait a while, we'll resolve this issue once and for all? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Direktor but I am puzzled. You introduced the name Kabudzic in this and other articles so you must know where you got it from? If you write that arguments for Kaboga have been accepted where is the obstacle? You write that you are not that informed about the Kaboga family but are changing the name to Kabudzic across a number of Wikipedia pages without any sources. What would like to know about the Caboga/Kaboga family?

Regarding Dubrovnikan as you explained above, contemporary inhabitants use Kaboga or Kaboge in declination. At the beginning of Rijeka Dubrovacka around the corner from Gruz and Kantafiga in the area that is called Batahovina, stands one of the old summer residences of the family. And locals say kod Kaboge (at Kaboga) or kod Batahovine (at Batahovina) to indicate the geographical location. Here is an account during the seige of Dubrovnik where a group of local men (branitelja) were, in defense of Dubrovnik, holding the line near Sustjepan at the Villa Kaboga as they write it.

Here the excerpt from [10]

Prvi položaj do Sustjepana je bila Villa Kaboga, stari dubrovački ljetnikovac još iz vremena Republike. U Kabogi je bila jedna grupa od desetak branitelja čija je zadaća bila spriječiti eventualni noćni pomorski desant kojim bi četnici dospjeli iza leđa nama Sustjepancima, te se ujedno našli na samom ulazu u gradski predio Kantafig odakle ih više nitko do Straduna ne bi zaustavio. Jedan takav desant mogao je značiti i potpuni slom obrane Grada pa je važnost ove grupice ljudi bila nemjerljiva. No često su nam upravo ljudi s Kaboge znali zakuhati gorku kašu. Pošto su oni bili dobro utvrđeni i zaklonjeni iza metar debelih kamenih zidova ljetnikovca i nisu bili izloženi velikoj pogibelji, znali su često zapucati prema suprotnoj strani. Jednom prilikom je Beli s Kaboge snajperom skinuo jednog bahatog četnika koji se je vozio na krovu kabine cisterne, cestom od Termoterapije prema Staroj Mokošici. Bahatost ga je stajala glave, a nas je ekipa s Kaboge odmah izvijestila o tome što se dogodilo.

I also hope that this issue of false wording will be finally resolved.Caboga (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for the wait, I am very busy with my studies and will not be able to participate in this. However, as far as I'm concerned you've proven your point. I won't object if you change "Kabudžić" to "Kaboga". --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The reason why you could not find KABUDŽIĆ is because it's made up.

There are (were) two forms in use: KABOGA and KABUŽIĆ (without 'd') Try googling 'Kabužić and you'll see.

As for the arguments in favor of Kaboga, you cannot list solely the official documents because they were written only in Latin and Italian. So of course they used the Latin and Italian versions of the name. You should check the literary sources in Slavic and then you'll find mentions of the Slavic version. The name Kabužić didn't just appear out of nowhere.

It is the Slavic version of the name of the Caboga family. True, in original it was Caboga, but they themselves chose to use both the Latin/Italian and the Slavic variant (that's why they created the Slavic variant in the first place, as did the family Gundulić, Crijević, Pucić, Bunić etc.). As for the local mentioning of Kaboga, it is because later on Ragusan nobles chose to use only Latin/Italian versions of their name inside the Republic, to show that they are different that the commoners and the peasants, who had Slavic surnames. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.234.225 (talk) 22:30, 29 January 2009 (UTC)