Talk:Bernhard, Margrave of Baden

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Bernhard, Hereditary Prince of Baden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100416034455/http://www.btinternet.com:80/~allan_raymond/Baden_Royal_Family.htm to http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Baden_Royal_Family.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 14:29, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Name in the intro of the article

In my opinion, this article should follow the common practice as most articles on persons following WP:COMMONNAME: While the article name is the common name, which is sensible, in the article intro the official name should be used, followed by an explanation of the common name. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 07:33, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

see also MOS:BIRTHNAME and MOS:LEGALNAME --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 07:44, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

What is his official last name though? Erbprinz von Baden, Prinz von Baden, Prinz und Markgraf von Baden etc. Articles on royals usually start with the article name, eg Prince Daniel, Duke of Västergötland rather than starting Olof Daniel Westling Bernadotte - dwc lr (talk) 12:20, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

His full name is Bernhard Max Friedrich August Gustav Louis Kraft Prinz von Baden. His last name is Prinz von Baden, which should be listed as family name in his id card. Since there has been no royalty in Germany since 1919, and since descendants were only allowed to transfer titles into their last name, translating any part of that to other languages is silly. (German nobility has some background.) After all, nobody ever translated Helmut Schmidt to Helmut Smith, either. But some people keep using imaginary titles and styles, out of tradition, nostalgia, ignorance, and so on, especially Germany's yellow press loves to keep this alive because it's a major part of their reporting.--176.199.18.119 (talk) 15:10, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

The title of cadets in the House of Baden is/was Prince/Princess and Margrave/Margravine of Baden. My point is we don’t know what his passport or ID card says, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility he could of even been registered with the last name of Erbprinz von Baden. We could only speculate and make assumptions about what his legal last name actually is. - dwc lr (talk) 15:27, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

He appears in official documents as "Prinz und Markgraf of Baden, Herzog von Zähringen" like here: [1] If you are in doubt you could possible send a request to the responsible Einwohnermeldeamt in Germany to get in confirmed. Another trustworthy secondary source is: [2] --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 16:02, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I have left the name with the English translation as is done with other German pretenders but added a footnote explaining the legal title with the source. --Richiepip (talk) 15:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

article name

Please see WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:CRYSTALBALL. Article can be moved when sources are provided. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 21:26, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

comma in name

The name should follow the sources. The sources use the name without a comma. Therfore please provide sources with comma. I started this section as my change got reverted multiple times for arbitrary reason and to avoid any edit war I give the possibility to discuss. If no sources can be provided, I will correct the article name to the form used in sources. -- Theoreticalmawi (talk) 21:43, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Move

In accordance to Talk:Franz_Wilhelm_Prinz_von_Preussen#Requested_move_6_December_2022 I propose to move the article. Is anyone against this? -- Theoreticalmawi (talk) 12:48, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest Bernhard Markgraf von Meissen to keep consitence through the Wikipedia, but also prefering a short version against the very long legal surname. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 12:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Bernhard, Margrave of Baden → Bernhard Markgraf von Baden – I belive, all arguments for or against a move are already listed here: Talk:Franz_Wilhelm_Prinz_von_Preussen#Requested_move_6_December_2022. If anyone may have additional arguments, I'm looking foreward to exchange. The move to the current article name was undiscussed and controversial. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 13:17, 18 January 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:50, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose a news search in English sources shows Margrave of Baden is used not clear what rational for a move proposer is making here WikaKhan (talk) 15:53, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

  Oppose Most sources do not use a German name for him. The move was undiscussed because there shouldn’t be any controversy. And I would hardly call one person consistently making the same edit, and consistently being reverted “controversy”. Estar8806 (talk) 22:47, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

  @WikaKhan I just want to make clear, that all references on "Margrave of Baden" I can find are either referring to his father, use literal quotes of the familiy press release or are unreliable WP:SPS. Therefore there is no reliable source to name this individual "Margrave of Baden". --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 22:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I don't think that moving the page to "Bernhard Markgraf von Baden" is necessary as it literally means the same thing but just in German. If you change this one you might just as well change all of the rename the articles of his predecessors like Maximilian, Margrave of Baden (his father) and Berthold, Margrave of Baden (his grandfather). The article is his name with his title in English and I see absolutely no problem with that. Just because one article uses the person's title in it's native language doesn't mean this one has to.

AviationEnzo (talk) 22:55, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment @WikaKhan @Estar8806 @AviationEnzo there ist literally no reliable source using Bernhard, Margrave of Baden. Which is used in the reliable english sources is Bernhard Margrave of Baden. I would propose this as a compromise, which would fit better than the current name per WP:NCROY and WP:COMMONNAME. There is also no basis for the previous name change per WP:NAMECHANGE, as the reliable english sources use the name without comma. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 09:16, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment I think that your compromise of just removing the comma is definitely more reasonable. The only reason why the comma is there though is to separate his name "Bernhard" from his title "Margrave of Baden". Like most nobility on English Wikipedia it is done this way. You can see this done for other German nobility as well. Overall, I think it just be better to leave it the way it is. But, if the outcome of this is in agreement to move I would prefer you just remove the comma instead of translating it to German. AviationEnzo (talk) 13:03, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment I concur with AviationEnzo that if this page is moved, which can only occur if a majority of opinions within the 7 day limit (or longer if the discussion should become more active), then it should be in English. Further, the earlier RM referenced is different. "Prinz von Preussen" is used as a surname, "Markgraf von Baden" is not, though "Prinz und Markgraf von Baden Herzog von Zähringen" but that is not WP:CONCISE. And per WP:NAMECHANGE "extra weight" is given to reliable English sources, but it does not say that they are the only way a name may be changed. No formal secondary sources ever referred to Charles, King of the United Kingdom between his being Prince of Wales and assuming the name Charles III, but we still used that title until it was relatively formalized that Charles III would be his name. Estar8806 (talk) 23:15, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Estar8806 Markgraf von Baden (Or Margrave of Baden in the english translation) is actually used as a short surname, while the full name is only used where necessary. I know this is an absolute mess with the names of the former german nobility, but it is not for me to decide which name they choose to use (and other people choose to reference them). It is not sensible to compare a reigning monarch with a titel that was deposed in 1918 and merly survived as part of a surname. In terms of using the title, it would be better to compare with Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece whom we doesn't call King of Greece, even though there might be even reliable sources calling him that, as this title doesn't exist anymore, like the title of a Margrave of Baden. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 22:52, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

We cannot call Pavlos King of Greece because that was the title of a reigning monarch. The Monarchs of Baden were not Margraves when the monarchy was abolished, they were Grand Dukes of Baden. The heir to the throne was known as Margrave of Baden (just as in Greece Pavlos is/was Crown Prince). The titles of abolished monarchies are complex, hence this RM among many others. Nonetheless, I will respect the outcome of this RM. Estar8806 (talk) 01:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Estar8806 and because they are complex, we shouldn't bring our own personal opinion into this matter but focus on the sources. As mentioned above, there is no reliable source to call this individual "Bernhard, Margrave of Baden". I completely understand that your personal opinion differs, that is absolutely ok that you have your opinion, but please do not write it into Wikipedia articles. There should only be factual and source based statement, no personal opinions. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Theoreticalmawi The whole point of an RM is to debate a move. You cannot have a debate without an opinion. Our debate is not over personal opinion, but the interpretation of the rules of wikipedia. I will still oppose any move to Bernhard Markgraf von Baden because it is not used in English sources (WP:USENGLISH). And I must insist on the inclusion of a comma because, as @AviationEnzo mentioned, "Margrave of Baden" is a title, and his predecessors used it as such, WP:CONSISTENCY. Estar8806 (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Estar8806 Thank you for elaborating your point. However, above all principles in Wikipedia, the most important remains WP:VERIFY. If it isn't verifiable, other considerations do not matter. There is no reliable Source after the assumed name change. Therefore, to stay true with WP:VERIFY there are only two possibilities: either we go to reliable german sources, therefore Markgraf of Baden or we ignore the assumed name change and go back to Bernhard, Hereditary Prince of Baden, which would be in my opinion the worse option.

WP:USEENGLISH does not encourage to prefer unsourced english names over sourced alternatives.

WP:CONSISTENCY states, that it only should be broken with good reason. Missing WP: VERIFIABILITY is a good reason to break the consistency. Furthermore, as mentioned above, my proposed article name is in consistency with other descendants of the former german nobility. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 08:47, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

• Support, there have been absolutely and without exception no "German princes", "margraves", and whatnot, since the Weimar Constitution went into effect on August 14, 1919. "Markgraf von Baden" is not a title, but a surname, and as such should not be translated. -- Seelefant (talk) 00:12, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Seelefant - - "Markgraf von Baden" is very clearly stated in the article to not be a surname, while "Prinz und Markgraf von Baden Herzog von Zähringen" is. I would additionally question @Theoreticalmawi seeking your input as potential WP:VOTESTACKING based on the Prinz von Preussen RM. And I would also discourage their presumption that everyone in opposition to their view is a monarchist, I may be, but I cannot speak for the other opponents of this RM. Estar8806 (talk) 02:07, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  The point is that there have not been any feudal or royal titles of any kind in Germany for over 100 years, and families who retained such terms did so purely as part of their name, as is briefly mentioned under Weimar_Constitution#Section_1:_The_Individual. Furthermore, it seems to me that I'm the only user here who has been notified by Theoreticalmalawi, and find it somewhat strange that someone would consider that "vote stacking", and feel entitled to monitor, and attempt to regulate basic communications of other users who do not share their opinion. -- Seelefant (talk) 02:40, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  Wikipedia, at least English wikipedia, is not written in strict accordance with laws which haven't been in effect for several decades. Second of all, I fully believe you and @Theoreticalmawi are entitled to your viewpoints, I merely am saying that there may be the appearance of WP:VOTESTACKING by your opinion being sought out because it was relatively save to assume you would support the move. One vote could sway consensus, so it really doesn't matter how many editors are notified to constitute votestacking.

  But then again, I'm not lodging any accusations, I'm just saying there could be an appearance of impropriety. Estar8806 (talk) 03:15, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  Ah, but there you are mistaken. By default, all older German law that is not unconstitutional is still valid; as set in article 123 of the current constitution. This has been ruled specifically to pertain to titles of nobility, which "are considered part of the name only, and new ones cannot be bestowed". -- Seelefant (talk) 12:28, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Seelefant @Estar8806 Abide, Wikipedia is not bound to use the legal name, a common name can be preferred. But a common name (as common somehow suggest) is only a name, commonly used. And this is Bernhard Markgraf von Baden If you count the german sources, Bernhard, Hereditary Prince of Baden if you prefer only reliable english sources (I didn't do an extensive review on the past sources but I know this version is in some of them) and therefore ignore the "recent" or Bernhard Margrave of Baden if you count the english version (I don't know if translated by the family or others) of the family press release on the death of his father as a source. Under all circumstances, Bernhard, Margrave of Baden does not qualify as a common name. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 13:56, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  If "Margrave of Baden" were in fact a surname, would the whole family not use it? Look at the Prinz von Preussen RM, all of the family members (mentioned on Wikipedia) use that surname. Bernhard was never referred to as "Bernhard Margrave of Baden" before his father's death. Only after his father's death. Did he have a different surname from his father his whole life? Did only have a right to a surname upon his father's death? Clearly, it is in fact a title, and with a title one must use a separating clause to prevent confusion over it being a surname. Estar8806 (talk) 17:10, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Estar8806 they explain the usage of the name on the familiy website https://www.haus-baden.eu/wer

  translated from german with deepl, highlights by me:

  "Based on §13BGB (WV Art. 109), the surname of all members of the House of Baden is Prince and Margrave of Baden, Duke of Zähringen. For the female members of the family, the feminine form applies according to the same ordinance: Princess and Margravine of Baden, Duchess of Zähringen. With the end of the monarchy, all prerogatives of the ruling family were abolished. The titles continue to exist as part of the name under the laws of the Federal Republic of Germany. In practice, the long legal name is usually used in a simplified form for reasons of suitability for everyday use: The respective head of the house calls himself Margrave of Baden, his wife Margravine of Baden. The other members of the family refrain from using the title of Margrave. They call themselves Princes or Princesses of Baden."

  Based on consistency, we should name all the family members the same. It is already a concession to this somehow weird usage of family names to accept "Markgraf von Baden" as a common name. If you prefer the consistency, we could, as a compromise, have a bulk move of the whole family (only member born after 1918) to "X Prinz von Baden" as this is the WP:CONCISE WP:CONSISTENT common name of the family (with full name and explaining footnote to start the first paragraph). It isn't my first choice but would be absolutely ok for me if this solution would bring consensus. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  The same website also refers to "Margrave Max" and "Margravine Valerie", so clearly it can be used as a title and a surname. Estar8806 (talk) 22:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Estar8806 It can be, out of courtesy (as also stated on the website) but per WP:NCROY in the case of defunct titles, it should be used in Wikipedia only if done so by the majority of sources. This is not the case. But I'm happy to see that you finally understand the whole title/name complex. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 22:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  I must remind you that WP:NCROY is not policy, but just a guideline. It openly states that using common sense permits occasional exceptions. Most of Bernhard's predecessor's used the comma indicating a title.

  I think we can safely say neither of us is going to change the other's opinion. We'll just have to see over the next few days how this pans out. Estar8806 (talk) 23:51, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

  @Estar8806 While WP:NCROY is only a guideline, WP:VERIFY is a policy. You consistently ignore this point. The current article name is not WP:VERIFIABLE and therefore has to be moved. I made different porposals which are WP:VERIFIABLE that adress your critique on my original proposals. But as long as you do not want to adress this issue, I agree that we can agree to disagree.

  Furthermore, I want to point out to whomever will be resolving this discussion, that the last stable article name was Bernhard, Hereditary Prince of Baden. --Theoreticalmawi (talk) 09:35, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

  I struggle to find verifiable sources for Prince Stefan of Liechtenstein - English title - but I can find plenty of sources for Prinz Stefan von und zu Liechtenstein but there as here we should Use English otherwise by your argument. There are obscure Hungarian people where English sources will be lacking yet we will put first name first and surname last in contravention of Hungarian practice and sources. sometimes we have to be a bit flexible if consensus allows WikaKhan (talk) 14:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

  I absolutly agree, that we have to be flexible if consensus allows. But this is no argument in this discussion. The case on Prince Stefan is simple: My search reveals only 6 sources using "Stefan Prinz von und zu Liechtenstein" but a lot more using "Prinz Stefan von und zu Liechtenstein", also it is a real, no hypothetical title, therefore, in combination with WP:USEENGLISH as titles can be translated, the Title perfectly reflects the consensus laid down in policies and guidelines. I hope, my explanation was helpfull to your understanding of the guidelines I mentioned. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Comment From where I'm standing the current consensus is to keep the article name where it is.

Like I said earlier to move it to what @Theoreticalmawi proposed "Bernhard Markgraf von Baden" is utterly useless as it is literally the same thing just in German. If we are to move this one, we might just as well just rename and move the articles of his predecessors too. His father held the title of "Margrave of Baden" and as his eldest child he assumed the title upon his father's death.

Unless by the 25th there is consensus to rename the article, or you find a reliable source with him using a different title then the article should remain with its current name. I still oppose the move. AviationEnzo (talk) 02:18, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@AviationEnzo 3:2 is hardly any consensus. And even if there were a consensus, a consensus of 5 people can not overrule basic principles as WP:VERIFY.

If you would support a move only as a bulk move, this would be a resolution I could support. A short Google search shows, that the current article name of Max, Margrave of Baden and Berthold, Margrave of Baden are at least sourceable (While Bernhard, Margrave of Baden is not) but WP:CONSISTENCY would be a reasonable ground to move them too. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 08:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

The only move that I would support is if you agree to just remove the comma so it just be "Bernhard Margrave of Baden". If you are willing to compromise and do that I won't argue against it. Though, I will continue to look for sources separating the name from the title or surname whatever you wanna call it. AviationEnzo (talk) 13:00, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I would get on board with removing the comma if we want. The proposed title makes no sense 1) its not his legal name in Germany so why is just 'Markgraf von Baden' being proposed not 'Prinz und Markgraf von Baden Herzog von Zähringen', some people have mentioned concise but again why is 'Markgraf von Baden' being proposed and not just 'of Baden' or 'von Baden' or even just 'Baden'. 2) many sources in German are using the version 'Markgraf Bernhard von Baden' so treating it as a title. 3) really we should be consistent with his father and grandfather and use the English version. WikaKhan (talk) 14:18, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

1) The full name, and I belive this is uncontroversial in this discussion, is to long and therfore not WP:CONCISE. "Markgraf of Baden" is the most common variant of his name, therfore it is proposed. (for example: [3]) Do you want to propose a even shorter version?

2) Absolutly, there are some german sources using 'Markgraf Bernhard' or 'Markgraf Bernhard von Baden'. Per WP:NCROY would should a title only when the majority of sources use it. If this is proven my RM is void. As this didn't happened in the last seven days, I can assume that this majority does not exist. Otherwise we wasted a lot of time.

I want to go a bit further on WP:NCROY: In this case on hypthetical titles, it is a manifestation of the policy of a WP:Neutral point of view: Wikipedia should take no standing in regard of claims on such titles. Therefore only those titles should be used which are supported by a majority of sources. The Jacobites might claim, there is King Francis II, but we call him Franz, Duke of Bavaria. Also we have Peter Fitzek instead of King Peter I of Germany, even though some (dubious) sources claim he is. If the title is supported, it is absolutly fine to use it. As far as I observe it, the support on the former german titles is in decline, and therefore we can find less and less sources using them. Wikipeida should neither try to halt nor promote this development, only observe it.

3) I am sure, the point on WP:TITLECON is WP:EXHAUST, therfore I replying one last time on this point, summing up the previous arguments: WP:TITLECON states: "titles for the same kind of subject should not differ in form or structure without good reason." Here we have mutliple good reason to break the consistency: WP:VERIFY WP:NPOV WP:NCROY WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH as laid out above. I hope I didn't forget a point. Theoreticalmawi (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose as per the reasons given by others above. I also want to reiterate that "Bernhard, Markgraf von Baden" exactly translates to "Bernard, Margrave of Baden", which is what this article is already called. This is the English Wikipedia, not the German Wikipedia. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:46, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Consensus"

I object to the synopsis of the above discussion talking about a "consensus". There is no such consensus. There is factually no living person who bears the title "Margrave of Baden", or name of "Margrave of Baden". In particular, the person referenced to here as "Bernard, Margrave of Baden" is both legally, and commonly named "Bernhard Markgraf von Baden" and nothing else, and that is the one exclusively correct title for an article about him. -- Seelefant (talk) 13:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

note on established name

With the attention he is getting from the state visit to Germany and the coronation, we should be aware of how he is being referred to. The sources I am now stumbling across refer to him in some form of "prince". As I don't want to start a move request right away, I just want to start collecting references to get an overview of how he is being referred to.

Prince Baden Bernhard [4]

Hereditary Prince of Baden [5] [6] [7] [8]

Margrave of Baden [9]

Prince Bernhard of Baden [10]

Theoreticalmawi (talk) 12:55, 24 April 2023 (UTC)