Talk:Berisha (tribe)

Velika Gospojina

There is a claim that the Berisha historically had the slava of Velika Gospojina (Orthodox Dormition of the Mother of God). — Univerzitet u Beogradu. Filozofski fakultet (1968). Zbornik Filozofskog fakulteta. Vol. 10. Naučno delo. p. 401. На пример Берише су славиле Велику Госпојину, Тсачи св. Јована зимског .... Interestingly, the Catholic Berisha of Peć have the tradition of "Zoja e Berishes", which is Velika Gospa (Catholic Assumption of Mary). — Bulletin of the Ethnographical Institute. Vol. 4–6. Naučno delo. 1957. p. 366. У овим селима Берише славе „Велику Госпу", коју зову „Zoja e Berishes".--Zoupan 15:29, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Original research

Ktrimi991, the article claims that:

• "According to tradition, the tribe descends from a Kol Poga, an ancestor of Kuči"
• "genetic studies prove that Berisha has typical Albanian YDNA for example nearly all of the tribe is E-V13 which is the most common Albanian YDNA this could confirm that Berisha descends from an Albanian this could also mean that Kuci descends from an Albanian as well since Kuci descends from Berisha e Kuqe"

...Which is false, OR.--Zoupan 23:34, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

This was everything you had to do specify which parts you think are WP:OR. These two parts have sources and say exactly what sources say. OR is material for which no published sources exist. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. Specify why OR? Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

They do not say exactly what sources say. I'll specify:

• Jireček says that according to tradition the ancestor of the Kuči tribe is Grča Nenadin, and that Berisha could be descendants of Grča, a Mrnjavčević.
• Genetic studies do not prove anything, the results are drops in the ocean from a non-academic source, which an editor has synthesized with sources that state no such thing. I really don't have to tell you how cautious you have to be when "reading" Y-DNA, especially from forum-like sites; haplogroups do not black-and-white determine your ethnicity. The "Albanian Bloodlines Project" lists seven (!) tested Berisha individuals who are from Kosovo and belong to E-V13 (6) and J2b (1).
• Bosnian Academy source says that there are Berisha who claim that they originate from Kuči, and others that only a part of the Berisha are from Kuči.
• Elsie says that Berisha's legendary founder is Kol Poga, and that the "Red Berisha" are said to be among the ancestors of the Kuči. This does clash with other sources.

So, there is OR, references synthesized, incorrectly reflected, misplaced.--Zoupan 19:37, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

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Thallóczy, Nopcsa - Berisha and Kuci

Like pretty much all articles, whoever was doing the writing, had no evaluation process of what is what and also had no interest in understanding what the bibliography is actually saying.

For example, there's a sentence that says Baron Nopcsa established that most of the Albanian tribes trace their origin to the 1450–1650 period. and a few sentences above that The earliest documented ancestor of the Berisha tribe is "Count Valentine Berissa of Ulqin/Nobilibus Viris Dulcinensibus Berissa Comitis" mentioned in a ragusan document in 1242. So which is true? Well...both. That happened because Nopcsa was writing his travel memoirs in 1908, while Thallóczy's research was published in 1912. Also, in 1912 Jirecek and Sufflay published their research on Venetian archives, which showed the Hoti mountains of 1330 etc. As @Resnjari: pointed out on Krasniqi WP:AGEMATTERS even if it's... a four year gap in 1912. By 1928, Nopcsa had moved forward his research and traced Berisha's extensive pedigrees with certainty back to 1370, and with probability to 1270.

My second point has to do the Berisha and Kuci connection that manages to make zero sense not only because this article places Berisha in the 13th century and Kuci was formed in a different era in different area, but also because the bibliography used in this very article doesn't say that except for a line cited as "bosnian academy" from 1959 with no other bibliographical details. So, in the bibliography used in this article there is a branch of Kuci, the Drekalovic and the Pali brotherhood from...Koja e Kuçit who trace their descent to Berisha. That's pretty much it. They don't share any other ancestry either way, because they're not even tribes of common descent. The story about Grca Nenadin has to do with a Slavic Luzani group, one of the ancestral tribes of Kuci. Berisha are linked to Drekalovic and Pali, which came to that region about 150 years later. That of course is something that specialized bibliography is very much aware of, but random old books that take oral stories as equal to historical research don't. So, they mix up brotherhoods/tribes and traditions.

Cleanup on the way.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:08, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

History of tribes

Does the Kastrati tribe originate from berisha? 5.206.233.131 (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@5.206.233.131: No, they aren't related patrilineally. The Kastrati main lineage is J2b-L283>Z638>Y21045>Z38300>Y20899>PH1751>Z38299>FT134628, while the Berisha carry E-V13>Z5018>S2979>FGC33625>Y93102. The "red" Berisha carry E-V13>Z5018>S2979>L241>BY5617>PH2180>Y30588 and the Kuçi carry E-V13>Z5018>S2979>Y3183>S2972>BY168279>BY165837 hence they don't descend from Berisha. @GermanManFromFrankfurt: They may have the same haplogroup - just like 1/3 of Albanians - with Berisha, but their actual genealogical relation in terms of patrilineal ancestry, which is how these fise are defined is very distant .--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2023 (UTC)