Talk:Beer in Mexico/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

"Chela"

Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article states that "chela" is some sort of slang term for a 325ml beer bottle, going as far as translating "Mi Chela Helada" as "my bottle of beer, ice cold". This is not the case... I don't have any idea of where the term "michelada" comes from, but "chela" does not refer to a beer bottle, rather it's a colloquialism for beer, more or less like "brewski" in American English. Agurza (talk) 00:29, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Limes

Latest comment: 14 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

It's not true that Mexicans don't drink beer with limes. I've known them to put limes in beer both in and out of Mexico. And that's not taking into account micheladas, cubanas, etc, which tourists from abroad rarely drink. Maw 21:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Phrases like "most beer aficionados agree..." are examples of weasel words and should be qualified with a source or deleted. Also, asserting that the aforementioned beer aficionados don't know what beer drinkers really want is not only a generalization but completely unsupported by any evidence whatsoever & should be fixed. I'll try to find something in that regard. Frambach 03:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

A fact from Beer in Mexico/Archive 1 appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 27 November 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that although the Spanish introduced barley-based beer in Mexico, various Mesoamerican cultures had a corn-based fermented drink which is still made today?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/November.

Wikipedia

Well, Tecate was being served with a lime (not in the can, true) since at least the 1960's, in Mexico. Wulfysanjose (talk) 02:05, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Top sellers

Latest comment: 17 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

No way that can be NPOV, unless valid references can be given for the validity of beer of Mexico brand quality. I may agree with the statements, but they are not what should be in an encyclopedia. --Dumarest 00:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Need for reliable sources

Latest comment: 14 years ago79 comments5 people in discussion

Many (most?) of the sources appear to be poor, failing WP:RS. I think this is self-evident, but we can create a list and go through them one by one if necessary. --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I think so.... Most of the sources here are news articles, government sources, beer manufacturers and the like....Thelmadatter (talk) 03:19, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

News articles, should be fine. Government sources can vary. Manufacturers' sites probably shouldn't be used at all. --Ronz (talk) 16:57, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful to review WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:SELFPUB before commenting further. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

List of sources for comment

Extended content

1 ^ a b c d e f g "Artes e Historia La cerveza en nuestro país [Arts and History-Beer in our country]" (in Spanish). Mexico: CONACULTA. http://www.arts-history.mx/banco/index.php?id_nota=0305200695617. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Reliable? --Ronz (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)}

CONACULTA is a Mexican cultural agency

~~But it doesn't appear to meet WP:RS for this type of information.~~ --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

How and why? the article is about the history of beer in Mexico.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

~~No reputation for fact-checking or accuracy.~~ --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Fine, per nsaum75's comment below. --Ronz (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

2 ^ a b c d e f g "La Cerveza en Mexico [Beer in Mexico]" (in Spanish). Mexico: Cervecería Cuauhtémoc. http://www.ccm.com.mx/. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Appears to fail verification, as the link goes to a Flash site. --Ronz (talk) 16:59, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Nothing on WP:RS procludes flash sites

Is it a reliable source? I don't think so. Can the information be verified? I'm unable to do so. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

You dont think so isnt an arguement. The information used is about this brewery. That would be a problem if this was an article about Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc and it was the only source of information.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I am unable to verify the information. Per WP:V, that means it can be removed and should not be restored until the information is verfied.

It is a self-published source.

No reputation for fact-checking or accuracy. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

3 ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m "La history de la cerveza en Mexico [The history of beer in Mexico]" (in Spanish). Mexico: Explorando Mexico. http://www.explorandomexico.com.mx/about-mexico/4/252/. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Reliable? --Ronz (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Explorando Mexico is sponsored by SECTUR.. the Mexican government tourism agency

Thanks for the info. I don't think this is a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, you dont think so is not an argument.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

It fails WP:RS. Tourism agencies aren't known for fact-checking and accuracy, rather the opposite.--Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

This is patently false Ronz. Governmental agencies are one of the key sources for wikipedia. Tourism included. CoolMike (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

We disagree. Let's follow WP:DR. Perhaps WP:RSN? --Ronz (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this warrants a DR, but RSN sounds interesting. CoolMike (talk) 22:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Extended content

4 ^ a b "Vende México más cerveza [Mexico sells more beer]" (in Spanish). Mexico: Presidencia de la Republica. 2005 April 5. http://fox.presidencia.gob.mx/buenasnoticias/index.php?contenido=17489. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Government site from the Fox presidency

Yes, looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

5 ^ a b c d e f g "History of Mexican Beer". MexInsider. http://www.mexinsider.com/history-of-mexican-beer.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Not reliable. --Ronz (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well established website about Mexico, used to be a newsletter

But is it a reliable source? I don't think so. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Look at WP:RS.... what it excludes are personal websites, not websites sponsored by organizations or publications.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest your re-read WP:RS - this is crazy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CoolMike (talk • contribs) 19:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I dont understand how such a response is helpful. --Ronz (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

This is simply a suggestion that you re-read WP:RS, I think you must have misunderstood the content. We should also keep in mind that Wikipedia guidelines are guidlines only, not infallible documents. As far as the 'this is crazy' comment, I suppose that should be redacted. CoolMike (talk) 22:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

6 ^ a b c d e Gomez, Luis (2009 February 18). "Historia de la Cerveza en Mexico [History of Beer in Mexico]" (in Spanish). http://www.cervezacasera.com.mx/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=41. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Not reliable. --Ronz (talk) 17:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Website dedicated to homebrewing. not personal

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Repeating your assertion is not an argument.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy.

I see no arguments for it meeting WP:RS. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Extended content

7 ^ a b "Brewers sought to disparage pulque". El Universal. Wire Services (Miami). 2007-01-11. http://www2.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=22910&tabla=miami. Retrieved 12 September 2009.

El Universal is a well-known newspaper in Mexico

Yes, looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

8 ^ a b "Mentira que se use excremento para elaborar pulque". El Siglo de Torreon (Torreon, Coahuila). 2007-01-11. http://www.elsiglodetorreon.com.mx/noticia/254842.mentira-que-se-use-excremento-para-elaborar-p.html. Retrieved 12 September 2009.

Long established newspaper

Yes, looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

9 ^ Dickey, Josh L. (2008 June 3). "How well do you know your 'Mexican' beer?". Dallas News. Associated Press (Dallas, Texas). http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/fea/taste/stories/060308dnliv_Mexicanbeer_0603liv.55a8d2fd.html. Retrieved 2009 November 221.

Newspaper

Yes, looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

10 ^ Howard, Theresa (2007 June 11). "Ad Track: Cold Mexican beers become hot choice". USA Today. http://www.usatoday.com/money/advertising/2007-06-10-dos-equis-usat_N.htm. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Newspaper

Yes, looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

11 ^ "Mexican Beers Make Their Way to New York Taps". 2009 September 29. http://www.nybarfly.com/my_weblog/2009/09/mexican-beers-make-their-way-to-new-york-taps.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Not reliable. --Ronz (talk) 17:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

website dedicated to bars and drinks - not personal

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

why? Information from this source used to verify that a style of beer is available in New York City.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Ronz, how do you know that this website has no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy? That seems like OR. What if I were to find a secondary source that says, "nybarfly.com - an accurate and fact-checking website"? CoolMike (talk) 19:38, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I simply cannot find any evidence to the contrary, nor has anyone else participating in this discussion. --Ronz (talk) 19:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

12 ^ a b c d e "Cervezas Mexicanas [Mexican Beers]" (in Spanish). 2009 March 27. http://www.cervezacasera.com.mx/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=47. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Not reliable. --Ronz (talk) 17:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Company dedicated to fledgling homebrewing market in Mexico - not personal

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Repeating myself... repeating your assertion is not an argument.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, no reputation for fact-checking or accuracy. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

13 ^ "Historia de Grupo Modelo [History of Grupo Modelo]" (in Spanish). Mexioc: Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-1.asp?go=historia. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Top beer producer in Mexico

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Source used about the company... Same argument as for Cerveceria Cuauhtemoc.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree. Such self-published sources are inappropriate and promotional. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Extended content

14 ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q "Breweries in Mexico". MexInsider. http://www.mexinsider.com/mexican-beer.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Well established website about Mexico, used to be a newsletter

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

See #5. --Ronz (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

15 ^ a b "A Través de las Décadas [Though the Decades]" (in Spanish). Mexico: Cervecería Cuauhtémoc. http://www.ccm.com.mx/. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

2nd biggest Mexican beer producer

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

See #2. --Ronz (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

16 ^ a b c d e (in Spanish) Geografia Universal Gran Atlas Mundial de la Cerveza [Univeral Geography Grand World Atlas of Beer] (Especial 6 ed.). Caracas: 3A Editores S.A.. 1976. pp. 96–98.

Published book

Looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

17 ^ a b c d e "Corona". MexInsider. http://www.mexinsider.com/corona.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #14

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

See #5. --Ronz (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

18 ^ "Cervecería Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma" (in Spanish). Mexioc: Cervecería Cuauhtémoc Moctezuma. http://www.ccm.com.mx/. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Large beer producer

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

See #2. --Ronz (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

19 ^ a b c d e f g h i j "FEMSA Cerveza Marcas [FEMSA Beer Brands]" (in Spanish). FEMSA. http://www.femsa.com/es/business/cerveza/brands.htm. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Parent company of Cuauhtemoc and Moctezuma

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

20 ^ "Bohemia Weizen, la primera cerveza de trigo en México [Bohemia Weizen, the first wheat beer in Mexico]" (in Spanish). Beer Depot. 2009 August 30. http://beerdepot.com.mx/?p=218. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Mexican beer distributor

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

21 ^ a b c "Comparativa de cervezas de Mexico [Comparison of beers in Mexico]" (in Spanish). Mexico: Microplagio. 2008 October

20. http://www.microplagio.com/articulos/comparativa-de-cervezas-de-mexico/. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Beermakers magazine

Doesn't look like a reliable source for the information it is verifying. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Extended content

22 ^ "Negra Modelo" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=negramodelo. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

23 ^ "Pacífico" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=pacifico. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

24 ^ "Pacífico Light" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=pacificolight. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

25 ^ "Estrella" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=estrella. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

26 ^ "Modelo Especial" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=modeloespecial. Retrieved 2009 November 21.
27 ^ "Modelo Light" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=modelolight. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

28 ^ "Victoria" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=victoria. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

29 ^ "León" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=leon. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

30 ^ "Montejo" (in Spanish). Grupo Modelo. http://www.gmodelo.com/index-2.asp?go=montejo. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #13

31 ^ "Llega a México la “narco-cerveza” [”Drug” beer arrives in Mexico]" (in Spanish). El Porvenir. 2007 December 13. http://www.elporvenir.com.mx/notas.asp?nota_id=180247. Retrieved 2009 November.

Mexican newspaper

Looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

32 ^ "Lanzan cerveza en homenaje a Maradona en México [Beer dedicated to Maradona is launched in Mexico]" (in Spanish). Diario de Mendoza. 2009 October 24. http://www.mdzol.com/mdz/nota/167735-Lanzan-cerveza-en-homenaje-a-Maradona-en-M%C3%A9xico/. Retrieved 2009 November.

Mexican newspaper

Looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

33 ^ a b "Cerveza light se vende poco en Mexico [Little light beer is sold in Mexico]" (in Spanish). El Siglo de Torreón. AP (Torreón, Coahuila). 2004 September 17. http://www.elsiglodetorreon.com.mx/noticia/109553.cerveza-light-se-vende-poco-en-mexico.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Mexican newspaper

Looks fine. --Ronz (talk) 23:38, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

34 ^ a b "Putting a lime in Mexican beers". MexInsider. http://www.mexinsider.com/limes-in-mexican-beer.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

See #14

35 ^ Browne, Alaina (2008 May 3). "Michelada: Mexican Beer Cocktail". Serious Eats. http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2008/05/michelada-mexican-beer-cocktail.html. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Culinary website, not personal

But not a reliable source. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Source has been replaced per discussion below. --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

36 ^ "Bienvenida al sito oficial del 2º Festival de la Cerveza [Welcome to the official site of the 2nd Beer Festival]" (in Spanish). Guadalajara: City of Guadalajara. http://www.festivaldelacerveza.com.mx/. Retrieved 2009 November 21.

Official website of this event

Advertisement. I've removed it from the article. --Ronz (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

For Pete´s sake. Im replacing it.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

It's sourced only by the self-published material from their own website. Without independent, reliable sources, it's an advertisement. --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Continued discussion

This article was looked at for DYK status and no one else has had a problem with the sources. This article is about beer, not nuclear physics.Thelmadatter (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Luckily, I see no one making any arguments confusing beer with nuclear physics.

Care to discuss proper sources instead? --Ronz (talk) 05:48, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment - With regard to the sources, while I will agree that its preferable to have sources other than the manufacturer itself, organizations like CONACULTA are indeed notable in and of themselves and a WP:RS. In addition, just because a source is not the "most preferred", does not mean sections about it should be summarily deleted. If anything, the article should be tagged with {{primarysources}}, as I think that is more relevant than questioning whether or not the sources are reliable. --nsaum75^{¡שיחת!‎} 07:43, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't know what the fuss is about but I do feel time would be better spent expanding other articles than complaining about every source. Offhand this looks OK to me, maybe some of the sources such as http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2008/05/michelada-mexican-beer-cocktail.html are not reliable but I can't see offhand the extent of the problem identified here.. I believe sources such as http://www.arts-history.mx/banco/index.php?id_nota=0305200695617 are reliable... Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 13:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Serious Eats is not the best and I would prefer to use something better but the problem is that I dont have access to anything better. If/when I come across one (libraries suck in Mexico :( and I cant afford access to databases on my own ) I will make a replacement, but I know the information to be accurate and some source (except something that screams self publication/self promotion) is better than no source. Lack of sources is a lousy aspect of doing non-Anglo world topics and probably part of the reason why systemic bias is a problem on WP. Ronz, I understand your concern about using articles like those about beer for advertising purposes... its all too easy and tempting to do... both for manufacturers and for aficionados. But I really tried to keep WP:NPOV, and tried to cover as much ground as I could. If you or anyone else has access to better sources and cant read Spanish or dont have the time to work the better source in, just send me a scanned copy via my email and Ill gladly do it.Thelmadatter (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Edit conflict.

Thanks for the comments. I agree on Conaculta and have indicated so above. Yes, I was hoping this would be resolved simply, but we are writing an encyclopedia here, so the quality of the sources is important. Yes, we have some problems with primary sources, but worse we have self-published sources.

"Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." - WP:V, which includes WP:SELFPUB. --Ronz (talk) 16:28, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The Serious Eats ref is used in conjunction with three others on the topic of michelada. Given this, do we need this ref at all? --Ronz (talk) 16:35, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Serious Eats is there as it is the only one that refers to micheladas specifically. The others are about whether or not to put lime in the beer. Beer with lime is not necessarily a michelada. (BTW the michelada in accompanying photo is held by my hand :D) I know from personal experience that most places in Mexico (at least central Mexico where I live) serve bottles beer with lime wedges on the side, but this is not considered to be a michelada. However, I could find no source referring to this practice and I did not include it in the article. I interpret "by challenging the material" to mean challenging if it is accurate. Not simply that one does not like it for some reason. So if it is accurate, I dont think it should be removed. If I think Im making an assertion whose accuracy can be disputed, I make sure I use better sources. For example, I was extremely careful with sources for Santa Muerte because I felt that since it was a more charged subject and my experience with it extremely limited. Fortunately, newspapers in Mexico have written fairly extensively on the topic. I removed a reference in the Beer in Mexico article that bottles of beer are also called "cheves" in Mexico, because my sources dont say this and I had never heard it. Guess what word I saw on a hand-written sign in a tiny town called Santa María Tonameca Oaxaca while I was on vacation??? But I cant find any kind of reference to that word or how widespread it is. Id be happy to mention it in the article if I could find out something about it.Thelmadatter (talk) 17:51, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

One of the refs from michelada is fairly good quality: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3469/is_51_56/ai_n16030172/?tag=content;col1

I found a WSJ article that could be used as well: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124121797873378747.html --Ronz (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought both articles pushed the maggi or Worcester sauce too heavily but the WSJ article mentions the clamato version and is better written. Made the changeThelmadatter (talk) 21:22, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Some good sources from a google books search

Latest comment: 14 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

I think I found some good ones. See below

International directory of company histories, Volume 29 International Directory of Company Histories, Thomas Derdak Author Tina Grant Editor Tina Grant Publisher St. James Press, 1988 Original from Pennsylvania State University Digitized Jun 25, 2009 ISBN 1558623884, 9781558623880 Length 725 pages

Pages 218-220 discuss the history of the modelo group

Brewing battles: the history of american beer

The chapter "Joe and Jane Sixpack discusses competition from Mexican beer on US Beer sales. Could be relavent. The preview seems like it would make for a nice read for casual reading as well as for wikipedia.

Maybee this helps, maybee it doesn't. I will try and add more to this section this weekend. CoolMike (talk) 19:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds very promising. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 20:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Im having problems getting to the pages. Can you post a link? Im kind of Google Book challenged here.Thelmadatter (talk) 23:44, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

It's searchable in Google books, but without page views, so not very useful. I can't find it online anywhere else. --Ronz (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Calavera

Latest comment: 14 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

http://www.ocioenlinea.com/contenido/calavera-decembrina doesn't verify much, but at least it's third-party. --Ronz (talk) 17:30, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Its ok... and its published by a known newspaper.Thelmadatter (talk) 17:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes. My point is that it just doesn't say much. --Ronz (talk) 17:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

On the failed verification matter, if someone could identify in enough detail the page(s) that actually verify the information, I can find the links. --Ronz (talk) 18:10, 19 February 2010 (UTC)