Talk:Battle of Sellasia

Spartan Phalanx

His army of 20,000 infantrymen was composed of Spartan hoplites, possibly Spartan pikemen (according to Plutarch, Cleomenes had armed 2.000 Lacedaemonians in the Macedonian way),

Who's the dumbass that wrote that? Plutarch clearly states there were 6000 Spartan phalangites, not hoplites! I'm gonna edit this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.83.151.167 (talk) 23:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Who's the dumbass who says that???? Where does Plutarch talk about 6.000 Spartan phallangites at Sellasia? First, you should know better than being so arrogant, boy... Plutarch in his "life of Cleomenes" clearly states that 6.000 Spartans fell in the battle and does not mention their weaponry... What he states in the same text, some lines above is that Cleomenes at another instance armed 2.000 Spartans the Macedonian way. Does this mean that from then on the whole Spartan army was armed thus??? This is a very wild guess and is only supported by your igorance. Of course this does not mean that the Spartans were not armed in the Macedonian fashion, but this is NOT what Plutarch says. GK1973 (talk) 18:45, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Alright, here are some links to Plutarch:

a. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:2008.01.0018:chapter=23&highlight=sellasia

That's the 2000 helots armed in the "Macedonian fashion".

b. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0018%3Achapter%3D11

Yeah, so, this is what Plutarch says: Then he filled up the body of citizens with the most promising of the free provincials, and thus raised a body of four thousand men-at-arms, whom he taught to use a long pike, held in both hands, instead of a short spear, and to carry their shields by a strap instead of by a fixed handle.

That kind of sounds like phalangites to me. So, being capable of simple math, I simply added 4000 to 2000 and achieved the sum of 6000. Is that simple enough for you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.218.38 (talk) 05:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Cleomenes is regarded as the king who introduced the sarissa into the Lacedaeonian ranks as is Philopoemen(falsely) regarded as the one who introduced it to the Achean army. We know he used pikemen but since we are not told so in the accounts of the battle we cannot be sure how the Spartans fought. Plutarch talks about 6.000 Spartans dead (actually 5.800), not 2.000 helots and 4.000 Spartans (Helots are not Spartans nor should be counted as ones). So, the Spartan army MAY have been phallangites or both phallangites and hopites... we DO NOT KNOW for sure. This is what is said in the article. Adding a number of helots to the Spartan total, even if they were freed is not something that can be done. They were not granted citizenship. So... since you are so good at maths, you should first understand that 2 oranges + 4 cherries does not make 6 oranges nor 6 cherries nor does a description of 6 fruit imply that they were oranges or cherries... Is that simple enough for you?

BTW, I feel very uncomfortable to have to be ironic, so I beg of you to try and be more polite in your wording in the future. GK1973 (talk) 12:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure those 2000 became Neodamodeis, making them Spartans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.217.214 (talk) 18:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Plutarch does not say... In any case, I highly doubt that even if they were raised to the status of Neodamodes (as is very possible) they would not count among the Lacedaemonians. If only Polybius was as analytical regarding the Spartan forces as he was regarding the allies... Anyways, it does not really matter. In my opinion, too, the Spartans fought in the Macedonian fashion but we cannot be sure of how many did so. Maybe Cleomenes trained more Spartans, maybe he didn't. Maybe the freed Helots were counted among the Spartans maybe they didn't. Polybius does also not mention any Spartans fighting in the Macedonian way, although he certainly seems to imply that. Anyways.. this is why to a simple "hoplites" I added the probability of the hoplites being pikemen referring to Plutarch. GK1973 (talk) 19:44, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, at least you added "and an unspecified number of non-Spartans" to the casualties list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.202.207 (talk) 20:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Total streng of Spartan army on Sellasia

Many sources and books I have read say Cleomenes III only can gather 10.000 soldiers, Spartans, allied and mercenaries. My question is: 10.000 or 20.000? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.84.128.125 (talk) 01:03, 28 January 2017 (UTC)