Talk:Battle of Keren

Casualties

I see the infobox contains the Italian casualty figures quoted from the Compton Mackenzie book (see quote in Aftermath section). However a) I am always dubious about casualty figures estmated by the other side and b) Mackenzie's figure was supposed to be only for the initial 5 days fighting. Does anyone have another source we can use to tie this figure down? Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 22:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Casualties (2)

User:Olonia has been doing some work on the casualty figures and has concluded that the British Empire figures are too low compared with the Italian ones. The current figure (total British Empire casualties of 3765) is from the Official British History of the Second World War and should be seen as definitive and should be seen as a revision of the 4-5000 figure given in the British Government pamphlet published shortly after the campaign. Wikipedia editors should not impose a POV of whether a figure seems too high or two low but in this context the 3765 represents a casualty rate of 28% - a high figure but quite believable in the circumstances.

Olonia has found separate figures for Indian and British troops. I suspect this is a misreading because this is not how the casualties were counted. The two Indian Divisions involved each had three infantry brigades each of which comprised two Indian Army battalions (in one case three) and one British Army battalion. Their artillery was almost exclusively from the British Army and engineers from the Indian. Throughout, the officers were mainly but not exclusively British. British casualty returns would have distinguished between officers and "other ranks" but not between Indian and British nationals.

The Italian total in the info box of 12437+21700=34137 compares with a given force total of 23000......?! While the Italian figure would be expected to be relatively high because it would normally include a large number of prisoners (troops unable to get away at the end of the battle), there is still something wrong - a death figure of over 50% of the force would be unprecedented. Might I suggest a focus on the Italian casualty (or force size) figures? Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 16:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

East African Campaign (World War II) lists a source that says 3,000 Italian troops were killed in the Battle of Kers. I don't have access to it, so can't confirm. (Brett-James, Antony (1951). Ball of fire - The Fifth Indian Division in the Second World War. Aldershot: Gale & Polden. OCLC 4275700.) Could someone who does check it against the source that says there were 12437 killed? 196.202.193.190 (talk) 09:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

You can check it yourself - just click on the link in the References section to go to the on-line version of the Brett-James book. Actually B-J quotes the "British Official History" which quotes General Frusci (I've changed the ref). I can't find the actual wording quoted from the "Official History". The problem is that it is normally safer to quote Italian sources for Italian casualties and British sources for British casualties. In this case the Italian sourced figures look very strange but I have no access to them to be able to check. Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 11:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

maybe you can read this article about the battle. It reports that the british total forces were of 51000 and the italian killed 8000.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/kerenbattle.html--Magnagr (talk) 19:58, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. Follow that link and you get:

Not Found, Error 404

The page you are looking for no longer exists. Perhaps you can return back to the site's homepage and see if you can find what you are looking for. Or, you can try finding it with the information below.

Not much help! Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 23:41, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the wrong link.

You can google (on Google.com): The Rise and Fall of Italian East Africa and the Battle of Keren

and chose the first article that appears (from the site Comando Supremo)

or going directly in the main page of the site http://www.comandosupremo.com/ and put Keren or battle of Keren in the search window.--Magnagr (talk) 00:28, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look. Although interesting, I can't really bring myself to regard Comando Supremo as a "reliable source" as defined by Wikipedia. The authors of the articles are not properly identified and no sources are cited. It's really just a blog. I reiterate that official British sources should be used for British numbers and casualties and official Italian sources for the Italian numbers. Also great care has to be exercised in what numbers are being quoted. The British fielded two divisions at Keren which suggests about 20,000 troops. In the southern campaign in Ethiopia more or less three divisions were fielded. This might explain the 51,000 figure (i.e. five divisions) - but it's not the number to use in this context. Stephen Kirrage ^{talk - contribs} 09:12, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

ascari wounded soldier from brutinni & puglissi review is not relevan... miss typing from them, cause any reference have different wrote about the casualties, but the different not to significant with another reference. JancukTaekAsu (talk) 15:17, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Are you pulling my leg?Keith-264 (talk) 15:41, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

hahah JancukTaekAsu (talk) 02:33, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent expansion

Copied sections from the East African Campaign WWII and managed to glean more details about casualties, local soldiers mostly overlooked by colonial authorities as usual.Keith-264 (talk) 09:55, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Recent edits

@Jay D. Easy: I think you know more about wraps and conversions than I do. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:39, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Date of battle

There is no citation in this article for the 5 February date given. This was raised at WP:ERRORS ahead of a proposed main page appearance in 2021. I had a quick look for sources but just found a variety that place the start date between 2 and 4 February. Crossposting the conversation there below. Can anyone shed any light on this? - Dumelow (talk) 09:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

• Battle of Keren - the start date has a [citation needed] tag in the lead, and the associated article Battle of Keren order of battle suggests the battle started on 7 February. Can't access sources, so grateful for another pair of eyes. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 10:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be dispute between sources on the start of this battle:

• "the Battle of Keren lasted from February 2 , 1941 until March 27 , 1941" from: Gebrihiwet, Tekeste Fekadu. Inside Eritrea's War for Independence: Journey from Nakfa to Nakfa : Back to Square One. p. 157.
• "2 FEBRUARY 1941 The Battle of Keren begins in Eritrea" from: Mockler, Anthony. Haile Selassie's War: The Italian-Ethiopian Campaign, 1935-1941. Random House. p. XXXVI. ISBN 978-0-394-54222-5.
• "THE BATTLE OF KEREN February 3 - March 27 , 1941" from: History of the Second World War. Purnell and Sons Limited. p. 453.
• "The Battle of Keren began on 3rd February . It proved to be a protracted and bloody siege" from: Connell, John. Wavell, Scholar and Soldier to June 1941. Collins. p. 374.
• "the first , inconclusive , battle of Keren took place from 3 to 14 February ." from: Shireff, David. Bare Feet and Bandoliers: Wingate, Sandford, the Patriots and the Part They Played in the Liberation of Ethiopia. Pen & Sword Military. p. 74. ISBN 978-1-84884-029-4.
• "The Camerons opened the battle for Keren on 4 February by attacking a platform hill above the railway tunnel" from: Das, Chand N. Hours of Glory: Famous Battles of the Indian Army, 1801-1971. Vision Books. p. 205. ISBN 978-81-7094-069-2.

I only looked at the first few pages of a Google Books search but strangely, I didn't find anything for 5 or 7 February! I'll cross post this to the article talk page, but at the moment there's too much doubt over the date for this to be an OTD. I'll have a look, but any suggestions for a replacement? - Dumelow (talk) 09:18, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll have a look in Playfair, OH ME I tonight. Keith-264 (talk) 09:36, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot. Keith-264 (talk) 09:40, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm back; OH ME I (Playfair 3rd impr. 1959) beginning 3 February (p. 433), Italian withdrawal night of 26 March British advanced morning of 27 March and entered Keren. (p. 439) Keith-264 (talk) 09:03, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Keith-264, thanks for looking. I think there's a consensus in the sources towards 3 Feb to 27 March then? I've changed the infobox and cited Playfair - Dumelow (talk) 21:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Suits me; regards Keith-264 (talk) 21:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)