Talk:Baptists/Archive 4

American English

Someone recently changed "baptised" to "baptized". Normally, editing an article to switch from one variety of English to the other is frowned upon, but this version of the article from January 2002, with the spellings "emphasizes" and "flavor", shows that American spelling has seniority in this article. So I've added the {{American English}} tag above so we don't forget. —Angr 05:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Only the American Baptists?

The Baptist Church is strong throughout the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. Indeed, it is one of the largest denominations here. It was founded in England of course and its declaration of fauith is the London Confession. The article though suggests that it is exclusively an American organisation.

There is a separate article,I see, on Reformed Baptists.

I am not enough of an expert to write a whole section on the Baptist Church in Britain, but a mention in the article would not go amiss, and a link to the Association of Baptist Churches in Ireland, Baptist Union of Great Britain, Baptist Union of Scotland and so forth.

Howard Alexander (talk) 07:39, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't say the article suggests that Baptists exist only in America, but yes, there is a lot more info about Baptists in America here than about Baptists in other countries. (It's best to avoid the term "American Baptists" unless you are referring specifically to the American Baptist Churches USA, as that is what most Baptists in the U.S. will think of.) Ideally, the article should be about Baptists in general, without getting into specifics that are valid for only one country. Perhaps some of the more U.S.-specific info should be moved to Baptists in the United States. —Angr 11:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Baptist beliefs ... cited sources?

In that "backronym", someone has cited a few Bible verses that have nothing to do with the belief stated. Like, the term "Saved Membership" they quote where Jesus establishes Peter as the foundation of the church. ("You are Rock, and upon this rock I shall build my church.") What does this have to do with saved membership? And the passage about women being subordinate to their husbands? Neither of these verses has anything to do with the state of the church members' souls. Did the contributing editor even look at the verses he cited? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Newagelink (talk • contribs) 18:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Something I noticed as well is the use of the word "Eucarist" while the author has done some good research he/she is obviously writing from a catholic standpoint. Baptist celebrate "the Lords Supper" and their are distinct belief differences between this and the Eucarist... mainly in "transubstantiation". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Maranatha (talk • contribs) 15:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, Anglicans use the term "Eucharist" too, without believing in transubstantiation. —Angr 17:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

That entire paragraph had an odd sound to it, and was entirely unsourced as well. I deleted it. I also got rid of the "saved membership" as this is not typically part of the acronym. HokieRNB 22:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lead section

User:HokieRNB wrote on my talk page: "I agree with your sentiment in wishing for a more clearly worded introduction to the Baptist article, but I struggle to lead with the phrase 'A Baptist is a Christian...' This really minimizes the scope and assumes an awful lot. The article focuses much more on the ideology and the theological movement than on individuals as 'Baptists'. I wish that it were easier to name the article, such as with 'Presbyterianism' (as opposed to 'Presbyterian'). Do you suppose we could make up a name like 'Baptistism'? Also, while congregational polity is likely most common, I wouldn't include it in the first sentence. It does make its way into the 'Baptist beliefs and principles' section. The first sentence should make it clear that the term Baptist can describe an individual, a church, a denomination, or even an entire movement. HokieRNB 21:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)"

To this I say, I know what you mean about the title of the article. If the word "Baptistism" were in common use, that's what we would use, but while it does get some google hits with the relevant meaning, it's really not a common word. As long as the article title is Baptist, the article should really start with something along the lines of "A Baptist is..." or at least "Baptists are...", since article titles are supposed to be nouns, and as a free-standing noun, Baptist refers only to a person, not an ideology or theological movement. On the other hand, we could rename the article, perhaps to Baptist churches and start from there. In the current version of the lead, the one thing I object to most strongly is "an individual who purports to be a Christian", as that makes it sound like while Baptists consider themselves to be Christians, others doubt or even reject that claim. That may be true of some groups, Mormons for example, but it isn't true of Baptists. I don't think there's any question, either among Baptists or among non-Baptists, that Baptists are Christians. How to define Baptists is a very difficult problem, since there isn't much that defines all Baptists, and even less that defines all Baptists to the exclusion of other groups. The most obvious point is the rejection of pedobaptism, but other groups in the Anabaptist tradition like Mennonites and the Amish, as well as many Pentecostalists and groups in the born-again movement, reject it too. Congregationalist polity is common to virtually all Baptists, although there are apparently a few Episcopal Baptist groups in Africa, but again it's not unique to Baptists by a long shot. Sola scriptura is probably common to all Baptists, but it's common to all other Protestants too, as is regarding baptism and the Lord's supper as the only two sacraments/ordinances. So what defines Baptists uniquely? Are they the only group in the Anabaptist tradition that aren't peace churches? The disavowal of creeds is mentioned in the current version; that's certainly not common among Protestants, but I don't think it's unique to Baptists either, is it? +Angr 07:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I never meant the "purports to be" language to imply Baptists were not Christians, or to offend. In fact, I added the word Christians in the first place (per the edit history), but it was edited out. I thought part of that editor's objection was that one can claim to be a Baptist and not actually be a Christian. I suppose the flip side is that one is not really a Baptist then but only purports to be a Baptist. In any case, I certainly have no problem with labeling Baptists as Christians. Novaseminary (talk) 23:59, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Christian" distinguishes Baptists from being affiliated with other world religions. Details in the article give particulars of their distinctives. I think it's the best we can do. Afaprof01 (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Possible error in "Qualifications"

it is only the outward showing of the washing away of the consequences of the sin nature through the acceptance of the sacrificial death and shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Is this supposed to read "consequences of the sinful nature..."? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I have heard "sin nature", but I don't know what the writer was intending to convey. Ltwin (talk) 15:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Pentecostal Nazarene

The editors who keep inserting the comparison in the name change should understand the difference between a church denomination changing its own name within its first 25 years of existence, and individual churches within a denomination changing their name while maintaining affiliation with a theology and tradition that is more than 300 years old. I would assert that they are in no way similar. HokieRNB 13:29, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Ltwin (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Baptist-ism

Why is that all the other chritians have a name for their beliefs, (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Mormonism) but Baptists don't? What do we call it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.220.61.125 (talk) 02:13, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Hosius Quotation

The quotation regarding 1,200 years may be legitimate, but, if one takes a look at the footnote, it will become quite clear that the basis of the quotation is original and amateur research. Is it possible to get something a bit more secure and scholarly for such an important claim?Cyrusrex1545 (talk) 02:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.207.36.237 (talk) 02:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

removed edit issue

From a son of an ex-Baptist mother who described me what the Baptists usually believe in or tried to abide by church doctrine or biblical scriptures, this is I typed the information on the now-removed edit subsection, I shall copy-paste and show the subsection below. I believe the administrator felt this is wrong, incorrect or a "controversial" issue regarding how the Baptists are portrayed, but some renowned Baptist churches hold such views or beliefs. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 03:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Morality and ethics

This article needs additional citations for verification.

Please help improve this article by adding reliable references. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

It is somewhat thought (in part of general stereotypes) the Baptists have a strong ethical morality and the importance of proper social behavior, as well to follow the teachings of the Holy Bible such as the Mosaic Ten commandments. The majority of Baptist denominations are sometimes viewed as social conservative or religious fundamentalist, though many can be liberal and moderate in social and cultural mores of the present time. In general, a large percentage of Baptists in the United States lived in the South and Southeast states, where the regional culture tends to be more traditional or conservative. in political party affilation, they have among the highest registration rates for the Republican party, but were traditionally supportive of the Democratic party before 1960.

For example, many branches of the Southern Baptists abstain from alcohol, other Baptists avoid tobacco and a number of Baptist churches instruct or advice members not be involved in dancing, certain forms of music, movies, television, stage plays, playing cards, to at least observe the Sabbath (Sundays), gambling, owning stock, speaking god's name in vain, any vulgar, obscene or profane language, prohibitions on discussing taboo topics like sexuality, death, body functions and negative subjects in "polite" conversation, but Baptists strongly believe in political and religious freedom such as the concept of the separation of church and state in the United States Constitution. But the variety of conservatism in the Baptist denominations has warn members to avoid "the black arts" or anything with "Pagan" and "Satanic" references.

And more conservative Baptists morally oppose non-Christian "Atheistic" political ideologies (the churches' stance against Communism, and lately, Secular Progressive politicans). The Southern Baptist Convention had approved of abortion in the embryonic stage in a 1971 decree, but often viewed abortion as abhorrent and deprival of human life, other issues the Baptists have strong views (primarily opposing or against) are birth control, divorce and separation, premarital sex, cohabitation, certain aspects of political feminism, gender roles (the encouragement of women should wear "feminine" cloth fashion like dresses), the role of the wife/husband, and strong family values: like children or teens should never question parental authority. Sunday blue laws are once common feature of many Southern and Midwest states where Baptists formed a large percentage of populations until the mid 20th century.

In 1995, three of the largest Baptist churches among them the Southern Baptists organized a boycott of the Walt Disney Company and related entities like the ABC network, and refusal to visit their theme parks Disneyland and Walt Disney World. The churches protest the Disney Company's employee benefits policy covers same-sex (gay/lesbian) unions, a part of Disney abides by California state law on businesses not to discriminate employees based on sexual orientation and marital status. The decision abruptly ended the decades-long alliance of morally-conscious Southern Baptist conventions to support "family-friendly" programming and the strong moral guidelines Disney films or cartoons long used, and before 1990, a movie must possess a MPAA rating of "G" to be approved for church members' families to be viewing them.

While this proposed edit seems well intentioned, the background given by 71.102.3.86 indicates that the text is based on his mother's personal experience and also might not be neutral. I think this violates the policy against policy against original research and that the text should stay out of the article until it can be better sourced. - Novaseminary (talk) 05:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. WP:Verifiability says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth", and while the contribution may well be (indeed almost certainly is) true, it isn't verifiable. +Angr 07:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation?

shouldn't this article be titled Baptist movement or Baptists (Protestantism) or similar? After all, Baptist in the singular first and formost denotes The Baptist. --dab (𒁳) 11:47, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, "movement" isn't quite right, and "Protestantism" will be contentious since some Baptists don't consider themselves Protestants. Baptists or Baptist churches might work though. The problem is that Bapistism isn't a word; if only it were, the name of this article would be obvious. +Angr 13:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)