Talk:Banias River

Name

This river is located in internationally recognized Syrian land. Syrias official language is Arabic, not hebrew. The english name for this river is "Banias river". "Nahal Hermon" is a hebrew name that the occupying country uses. Why should wikipedia use the hebrew/occupiers name for this Syrian river? We should use the english name "Banias river. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Because its WP:COMMONNAME --Shrike (talk) 18:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

"Banias River" is the most common name, Google search: "Banias River" 35.600 hits:[1] "Nahal Hermon" 12.400 hits [2]. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:45, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

First of all banias river 34400 but the hermon stream is 28700 which is translation of Nahal Hermon from Hebrew.I propose as compromise to rename to hermon stream Shrike (talk) 18:52, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Google books: "Banias River" 16 pages of hits:[3], "Hermon Stream": 1,5 pages of hits:[4]. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Well I guess you can be obstructive or constructive. Ill open a move request now. nableezy - 19:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 16 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved, as per WP:COMMONNAME Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

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Nahal Hermon → Banias River – The sources are fairly lopsided here:

General google searches:

• Banias River: 35800 results
• Nahal Hermon: 12900 results

Looking at google books for the various options here results in the following:

• 1360 for banias river
• 199 for banias stream
• 243 for hermon stream (215 excluding nature reserve)
• 390 for hermon river
• 471 for nahal hermon

In scholar:

• 259 for banias river
• 23 for banias stream
• 25 for hermon stream
• 36 for hermon river
• 48 for nahal hermon

In news:

• 34 for banias river
• 7 for banias stream
• 54 for hermon stream (6 when restricting "nature reserve")
• 2 for hermon river
• 2 for nahal hermon

Banias River is by far the most common name used for this stream, and per WP:COMMONNAME this article should be moved there. Nableezy 20:00, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose this is just part of removing Hebrew or Israeli place names from articles. The common name is more often used as Hermon variant either Nahal/Nachal Hermon/Chermon or Hermon Stream, and should stay as this. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 00:50, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I've posted evidence that your comment is false, and beyond that nobody is removing the Hebrew from the article. This is a river that is nearly entirely contained in Syria, I'm not sure why it matters what the Hebrew or Israeli name is, though even Israeli papers use Banias River (Times of Israel: Banias River, Haaretz: Banias River, Yedioth Ahronoth: Banias River. But your comment on what is the common name is directly refuted by evidence. This is the English Wikipedia, and even Israeli sources use "Banias River" in English. The numbers are so lopsided here that I cant even begin to wrap my head around the bald-faced assertion that white is black that you make here in calling Nahal Hermon the common name. nableezy - 01:36, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Nableezy, The river is not in Syria, it's in the Golan. We're not unicorns, unlike the WB or Sinai, the Golan is never going back to Syria, especially now so let's not pretend anything, especially with the US recognition, and full Israeli control over it. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 02:17, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I invite you to both read Golan Heights as to what country that place is in and to reread the numbers for the various searches here. But, back to the point, your oppose is provably factually incorrect. It in fact is not only provably incorrect it is proven incorrect. If youd like to oppose based on saying two is greater than forty then by all means. nableezy - 05:26, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, why would English Wikipedia use an Israeli or hebrew place name for an area that is internationally recognized as Syria? How is this neutral? How is this following wikipedia rules? Why shouldn't English Wikipedia use the English name "Banias River" instead? Both Google/Google books searches I posted below shows that Banias/Banyas River is the most used name.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 03:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support move to Banias River. This river is located in internationally recognized Syrian land. Syrias official language is Arabic, not hebrew. The english name for this river is "Banias River". "Nahal Hermon" is a hebrew name that the occupying country uses. Why should wikipedia use the hebrew/occupiers name for this Syrian river? We should use the english name "Banias River". "Banias River" is the most common name, Google search: "Banias River" 35.600 hits:[5] (+19.600 hits if we use "Banyas River"[6]) "Nahal Hermon" 12.400 hits [7]. Google books: "Banias River" 16 pages of hits:[8], "Hermon Stream": 1,5 pages of hits:[9].--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 02:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
• Support Per arguments given, this does not even warrant a move discussion.Selfstudier (talk) 11:14, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Google NGRAM: [10] has "Nahal Hermon+Hermon River" over or more less equal to "Banias River+Nahal Banias" since the 1970s. Might as well use the name of the better known mountain over the name of the Pan god site.--Bob not snob (talk) 06:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Bob not snob, You have no idea what you are talking about, you used "Nahal Banias" in your search which is basically a non-existent name with one single hit on google books:[11]. If we do the search with only Banias River vs Nahal Hermon: [12] we get 0.954% vs 0.526%, Thats a large difference. If we do the same search Banias River vs Hermon River we get an even larger difference:[13], with Banias river at 0.954 and Hermon River at 0.158%. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support pr COMMONNAME. This isn't Hebrew Wikipedia, this is English Wikipedia --> English names. Huldra (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Nahal Hermon and Hermon Stream is the same name which is widely used in sources and its WP:COMMONNAME.It was not proven that the proposed name is really more prevalent --Shrike (talk) 19:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Um the search results show ranges of 3:1 to 10:1 in favor of Banias River. What proof would you like exactly? nableezy - 20:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Because you didn't take in account the Hermon Stream.Its 32100 hits[14] --Shrike (talk) 08:53, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Posted above:Google books: "Banias River" 16 pages of hits:[15], "Hermon Stream": 1,5 pages of hits:[16]--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:55, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness already did that above, perhaps you missed it.Selfstudier (talk) 10:57, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I posted the results for hermon stream in news, scholar and books. Banias River is, and this much is indisputable, much more commonly used. Unless you would like to argue that 243 is greater than 1360? nableezy - 19:50, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

How many hits "hermon stream" got in regular google search?Also Google Ngram is quite more descriptive then just simple search. --Shrike (talk) 06:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Banias spring is the source of Banias river in Banias, get it? No reason to apply Hebrew designation (or English translation of it) to non-Israeli place. Such argument is complete nonsense, like trying to argue that London should be called Londres because that's what the Spanish call it, duh. In Spanish Wikipedia they do call it that and in Hebrew Wikipedia, they can call it what they like in Hebrew but this is English WP (Hermon Stream is Israeli occupier designation of natural park area, that's all).Selfstudier (talk) 09:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support like Huldra said, its English not Hebrew wiki, plus its in the Golan, which is recognized internationally (except US) as Israeli occupied Golan Heights. I also find Sir Joseph comments very inflammatory, please understand the Golan Heights issue before you make such brash assertations. Regards JJNito197 (talk) 13:50, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

  JJNito197, will you be calling for this article to be renamed, Eid_al-Fitr? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:32, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

No, just like Yom Kippur that holiday is known in English by that term. How exactly have you been here this long and still not gotten that point? nableezy - 13:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Nableezy, I'm responding to JJNito197, not to you, who said, "its English not Hebrew wiki." Sir Joseph ^(talk) 13:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, and I am responding to you. Eid al-Fitr is at Eid al-Fitr because it is the most commonly used term in English to refer to that holiday. Same for Yom Kippur. In English, the most commonly used term to refer to this river is Banias River. That has been amply demonstrated by the evidence, and in response we get assertions that are not only not backed by anything but directly refuted by the evidence. nableezy - 14:49, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.