Talk:Banded mail

This article has no sources stated to support its claims, and the picture illustration is from the Dungeons and Dragons Third Edition game book, which I don't believe is in line with Wikipedia's view on acceptable sources.

I'm not making an attack, just an observation.

anon 70.174.132.213 14:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

I also came here to point out that the image is not in the public domain, unless the person who posted it knows something I don't. Greyscale 04:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I took the article from a quasi-wikipedia website which also displayed the image. Perhaps I misunderstand the image policy because I was under the impression that it was fair use. Really my only intention was to create a short and rather ephemeral stub that would quickly be replaced with better information.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 09:25, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the picture is even that accurate or helpful since you can't tell what is supposed to be the banded mail or even if its accurate. Dalassa 04:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This article appears to describe "banded mail" that only exists in the third edition of Dungeons and Dragons. It is a simplification of the various types of armor that actually existed and filled a gap in gameplay mechanics. It either needs to be edited to make this obvious and link to what inspired this "simplification" or should be deleted. I deleted the image as it is very much not public domain in any way, as its part of a copyrighted book. 69.232.219.203 20:59, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

name

is it the same as laminar armour (like lorica segmentata) or not?

No. --Eyrian 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

some sites like http://web.archive.org/web/20041109195408/http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page7.html coloquially uses this name for laminar armour

I'm not a very skilled historian, but I own the D&D core rulebooks and can paraphrase it by saying banded mail consists of overlapping "strips" (lames or plates?) of iron sewn to a backing of mail and leather, with the plates covering vital areas and the mail and leather covering the joints. Essentially, this is a bit ambiguous, but the illustration given in the book does resemble something like lorica segmentata worn over a mail suit (leggings & shirt or haubergeon) plus greaves, arm guards & gauntlets. I know of no actual historical armor that resembles this exactly, perhaps certain medieval soldiers who wore mail hauberks with iron lamellar cuirasses over them comes closest? But D&D is more about fun than historical accuracy. :)

Some relevant discussions about banded mail can be found in the following issues of Dragon magazine: #123 (p. 6-8), #126 (p. 56-57), and #131 (p. 6-8). --Amanojyaku 21:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The use of this term in Dungeons and Dragons predates the third edition.

It was also used in the second edition (in the Player's Handbook), and may have been used before that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.89.156.216 (talk) 14:58, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently, it has been used for quite some time before D&D.

Costume in England: A History of Dress to the End of the Eighteenth Century By Frederick William Fairholt, 1885, p. 27.

Ancient Armour and Weapons in Europe: From the Iron Period of the Northern By John Hewitt, 1860, p. 268.

--Amanojyaku 22:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Banded mail is a Victorian neologism pulled into popular consciousness by DnD. Check the sources by Amanoyjaku, and you'll see that it emerges from British Tomb effigies, and some quick illustrations. Medieval illustrators used a variety of techniques to illustrate mail (drawing thousands of rings being kind of a pain), and the Victorians interpreted each time of illustration as a different kind of armor. Theblindsage (talk) 06:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I've added information from Ffoulkes, including a specific reference that appears to depict chainmail and banded mail as different types of armor on a single figure in a single illustration (which removes the "variety of techniques" objection). "The Armourer and His Craft" is, of course, over 100 years old now, and there may well be a later source that refutes Ffoulkes. If you know of one, please cite it; I'd love to read it!

In any event, it's clear that "banded mail" as described in D&D is, to put it mildly, unsupported by history. Vykk (talk) 19:34, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding when it first appeared in D&D, and to put to rest the comments above as to which edition "had it first", it was already a fixture in the first edition rules in 1979, and was added in one of the supplement booklets to the original 1974 iteration of the game (as someone has already suggested, it filled an empty slot in the armor system). Illustrations in rule books and supplements have not depicted it consistently throughout the game's history, indicating that even the people at TSR were not actually sure what they were describing. Like "ring mail", it was something useful to Gygax et. al. in expanding the detail of the game but has no historical counterpart, having been inspired by misguided Victorian treatises. 12.233.147.42 (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)