Talk:Balliol College, Oxford/Archive 1

Archive 1

Wimsey

Didn't Lord Peter Wimsey go to Balliol? Can we add him as a fictional farmous former student? RickK 23:13, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)

He is already there! JPF 23:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Oh, cool. Nevermind. RickK 05:17, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)

Comment

This page is written in an extremely pretentious way, wouldn't one agree? Pcb21| Pete 19:49, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Is it possible to be more explicit? It is difficult to respond otherwise. JPF

This page is written in a very pretentious way, one that is common for 'rah' type oxford-university students. Living in Oxford and having it up to here with these educated but surprisingly idiotic people it saddens me to find this type of thought and spirit on this page. It needs to be rewritten!--DragonFly31 17:33, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and it's all the way through it as well, not just in places. I would advocate a full rewrite, but obviously I'm not volunteering myself! :) Nikevs 22:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll be explicit for at least one point: could you be more bloody useless than to throw around the term "JCR" and not one time explain it or link it to another page which defines it? --Jonrock (talk) 01:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Wrong Master!

The name of the master, Andrew Graham, has been linked to a different Andrew Graham, who is completely unconnected —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.129.185.132 (talk) 20:21, 15 December 2005 (UTC) This Andrew Graham, is the son of Winston Graham the novelist and author of the Poldark series. He attended St Edmund Hall, Oxford and undertook research with Tommy Balogh at Balliol. He was an adviser to the Labour governments of Harold Wilson and James Callaghan and had been a Fellow of Balliol since that period. He replaced Sir Colin Lucas as Master when Sir Colin became the Vice - Chancellor of Oxford.

I see this has now been amended to link with the proper Andrew Graham 79.75.31.166 (talk) 21:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC) Tony S

College templates

I have created a series of templates for former students of Oxford's various colleges. There are still plenty to do, but if you want to add one the the templates to your user page then feel free. See Wikipedia:Userboxes/Education/United Kingdom/University of Oxford for complete list. File:Anglo-indian.jpg Deano 18:15, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Pronouncing Balliol

Could someone provide the correct pronunciation of "Balliol"? *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 16:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

"Bay-lee-ill" is a first approximation. JPF 22:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, 'Bay-lee-oll' would be more appropriate.--DragonFly31 17:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

New JCR President

The Balliol JCR Committee elections were held this Saturday, and I can tell you that as of the end of Michaelmas Term 2006, we have a new JCR President... Andy Mason. I can't post this yet, as the results have not been published properly yet, but I imagine it'll be announced at www.ballioljcr.org in due course.

Well done Andy!!! CPCHEM 02:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Suicides at Balliol

I note with great sadness the reported death - presumably suicide - of Andy Mason the President of the JCR. [1] Everyone is vulnerable to the pressures of life at university. When I was at Balliol in the 70s, I personally knew someone who committed suicide there. What struck me at the time was that it was not mentioned officially. There was no counselling for those of us who might have been affected. It was treated as a private rather than a collegiate matter. Maybe things have improved and greater recognition is made of the impact on other students. Perhaps there was a fear that it was bad for morale to talk openly about student deaths. I am painfully aware that other college members have committed suicide. Should the main article not mention this rare but adverse aspect of college life? JPF 10:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

In fiction

I've just seen that the Balliol College in Fiction article has been deleted. (I would have contributed to the discussion had I known about it.)

In any case, even if there isn't a separate Balliol College in Fiction article, we really ought to say something about Balliol in fiction in the main article. And we really ought to be able to make what we say verifiable, not original research etc etc.

Balliol's fictive references contribute substantially to the wider reputation of the college and its standing. Compare fictive references to Balliol to those made to Christ Church (see Christ Church, Oxford#Christ Church references) or the relative sparsity of references to St. John's.

So take the quotes on this link (which allegedly was the main source of the deleted article) [2]. The J.K. Jerome quote illustrates an attitude that is still broadly pervasive at Balliol as does the Yes Minister Freedom of Information joke. Balliol students are often instrumental in organising protests etc., often have "alternative" tastes, are usually very liberal etc, but despite all this there is always a suspicion of affectation about them and a vague half-hearted quality about their protests not widely considered to be present amongst Wadham students for example. This is only compounded by the large migration of ex-Balliolites into city/establishment careers... Of course this is all gross personal anecdote, and perhaps not even accurate at that, so would be entirely inappropriate for an article, but if I'm right in seeing all these connotations in the source quotes we don't need my personal anecdote, instead we can effectively get all these famous authors to spell out (in a NOR way) their feelings on the feel of the college and its members. Of course its not as definitive as a complete historical record of hypothetical "attitude surveys" or somesuch would be, but since its precisely such literary mentions that drive people to apply to Balliol in the first place, they have a semi-self-fulfilling quality, and are in any case at least indicative of this fairly intangible yet crucial aspect distinguishing colleges.

In any case, I'm adding at least a link to the article linked above. I hope others will work on re-adding a Balliol in Fiction section.

--cfp 17:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...

No mention of the People's Republic of Balliol, then? I Enjoy Commenting (talk) 16:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

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Tortoises

There is a long paragraph about tortoises in the article. It is typical of the superciliousness of the place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.139.84.186 (talk) 16:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The death of most of the fish is just as typical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 09:46, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Marks

For some reason, Howard Marks appears twice in the list of notable graduates. If the College is proud of this type, then he should appear so often. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 09:38, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Fixed JPF (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Aldous Huxley is another drug-addict and graduate of Balliol College. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 11:30, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

A separate section on Balliol people who have taken drugs would probably be too long. JPF (talk) 19:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

predating printed books?

This means that Balliol's second library predates printed books. a rather unballiolesque claim, in that mass printing was well established in Korea, China, and Tibet by that time. Nice quip though. (20040302 (talk) 09:13, 21 March 2012 (UTC))

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Balliol College, Oxford/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This is a page with a substantial amount of useful content, close to being a good article in many respects, but somewhat entirely lacking in references. Casper Gutman 23:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 06:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 14:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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Literary figures

I have deleted h oward Marks from the list, as this unsavoury and literarily negligible criminal ought not to be listed with Matthew Arnold, Gerard Manley Hopkins, and Hilaire Belloc.Seadowns (talk) 16:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

General

The article does not bring out that Balliol attained a real preeminence in academic standing, I believe partly because of the former timing of its scholarship exams, which used to make it attractive to bright schoolboys. They could sit for Balliol first, then try for others if they failed Balliol, which therefore had first choice.

Also, far too much space is devoted to trivialities like the rivalry with Trinity  Seadowns (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Harold Macmillan number 10 official.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Image from this article to appear as POTD soon

I am a little bothered by the image offered for the interior of the Dining Hall, which has managed to combine cropping and photographic perspective in a way which seriously misrepresents the interior. There is a view of the entrance end in a 1994 drawing by JW Winckelman, once available from the College, which gives a more accurate idea of the proportions, as well as suggesting that the fireplace might just possibly be on the opposite wall, which it didn't use to be. But apart from that, it is Balliol Hall - and it shows Benjamin Jowett's organ. I suggest consideration be given to trying to include it in the articleDelahays (talk) 02:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Editorializing on "tranquil consciousness"

Hi, I feel like the linking of the "tranquil consciousness" quote to the wiki page sprezzatura is not nPOV by any stretch of the imagination. Sprezzatura has more to do with concealing effort than manifesting superiority. Richard Sennett, for one, has maligned sprezzatura (not in so many words) as a bad habit of the British, so this topic is politicized. It's probably a good idea to tread carefully when we characterize the people referred to by the quotation. Even if you think it's a valid link, the connection is not really implied by the quotation, and the link doesn't tell us more about the quote itself. The link (but not the words) should just be removed, in my opinion. Any comments? Theoh (talk) 22:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Agreed: there's arguably some overlap in meaning, but they're certainly not direct equivalents. The link should be removed. GrindtXX (talk) 00:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Mention of Herbert Asquith famously remarked upon “the tranquil consciousness of effortless superiority which is the mark of the Balliol man" appears to have been removed. Suggest including it in "traditions and customs" section. The phrase has become an unofficial motto of the college, often repeated by students and fellows. It should perhaps be mentioned as a feature of student life and culture. The original quotation, and subsequent adoption of the "effortless superiority" reputation, is well documented. Whether this is true is somewhat beside the point, as the statement is part of the campus culture and ethos of the college.

References

Well rowed, Balliol!

The article mentions that Balliol used to take a lot of Asian and African students (a fact even mentioned in "Brideshead Revisited").

Apparently, in the mid twentieth century, it used to be a running gag in Oxford cinemas that, when a canoe or other boat crewed by natives appeared on the screen, some joker would shout "Well rowed, Balliol !".

We'd need a source, obviously.Paulturtle (talk) 08:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

The high number of international students at Balliol is also referenced the series Yes, Minister. In the 1981 episode "Doing the Honours," the thinly vailed stand-in for Balliol ("Ballie College") is in danger of closing because proposed legislation will dissuade international students from attending the college.

References

Images

Filetime undertook a radical overhaul of the images in the article here, which JCrue then reverted here with the edit summary "due to quality of images (poorer framing, foliage concealing chapel and hall)". I find that justification a bit hard to swallow when I look at the first two images below. I have re-reverted in the case of almuni portraits (where I think there's no question but that clear colour photos are preferable where available), and am opening the matter here for discussion in the case of the rest of the images. I think that most of Filetime's replacements were a definite improvement, though I'm happy to debate individual cases. For example, the first two images currently in the article (in the infobox and the body), preferred by JCrue, are those below – but they show pretty much identical views (not to mention problems of the low resolution of the first, and the container and roadworks cluttering up the middle of the second). Filetime's preferences follow. Can we reach some consensus on this? GrindtXX (talk) 16:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

• 
  JCrue's preference – current
• 
  Filetime's preference
• 
  Infobox: JCrue – current
• 
  JCrue – current
• 
  Infobox: Filetime
• 
  Filetime

Always happy to discuss GrindtXX.

I actually overreached in undoing Filetime's edit and mistakenly reverted several changes that were improvements, e.g. the colour alumni photos. I got confused in comparing the before and after as to what was in which revision and thought Filetime replaced the colour ones with the B&W ones, sorry! I've no objection to those.

For the other images, I'll go through them side by side so they can be more easily compared:

• 
  Original
• 
  Revised

The MOS:IMAGEQUALITY frames quality as a consideration in how well it depicts the article subject, not quality in the sense of how many pixels it has. The original is better framed, showing the full height and length of the frontage, therefore is the better quality image.

• 
  Original
• 
  Revised
• 
  Option 3
• 
  Option 4

This image is captioned in the page "The frontage of Balliol College".

I guess neither of them is perfect. I favour the original because you can see the whole length of the front of the college. The revised picture shows very little of the front of the building. It's a good picture of the entrance way and porter's lodge but shows only a small part of the frontage. It is from straight on though, which is clearer.

I found two other options on the commons that show more of the frontage and are clearer than the original, though given this image is illustrating the section "Balliol—Trinity Rivalry" I wonder why we need an image of the frontage at all here? I suppose an ideal picture would be one showing how both colleges neighbour each other (or maybe just a photo of Trinity?) rather than the frontage of Balliol.

• 
  Original
• 
  Revised

You missed this one from your gallery. The original image shows an unobstructed and well-framed view of the chapel. In the second image the chapel is more distant, smaller in the frame, and partially obscured by foliage. Therefore the original is the better quality image.

• 
  Original
• 
  Revised

I actually got these the wrong way around too when comparing the pages and agree the second image is clearer.

Hope that helps. --JCrue (talk) 23:07, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

JCrue, thank you for your response. Re the first (infobox) image, I agree the "original" is a well-framed image, and I accept your point that number of pixels is relatively unimportant, so I suggest we keep that. Re the third image (of the chapel), I also agree that the original is at least marginally superior, so we should probably keep that – though I would also flag up the one below, which shows more of the body of the chapel, as an alternative. If we do keep the original, my only modest proposal is that, as a portrait image, it should be set upright – at present it looks disproportionately large.

• 
  Chapel option 3

Re the fourth image, you have agreed with me that the revised image is superior, so that should definitely be changed.

So I don't think there's much disagreement between us on those three, which only leaves the second image requiring any real discussion. Although it's in the section on "Balliol–Trinity rivalry", it's not setting out to illustrate that topic: it's just "eye-candy" in what would otherwise be a rather text-heavy section of the article. I'm not sure it's really feasible to depict Balliol and Trinity neighbouring each other even if we wanted to, because of Trinity's main buildings being set so much further back behind their front quad. As it happens, your Option 4 above does feature the tower of Trinity chapel in the background (but so obscurely as to be invisible at normal thumbnail size); or, alternatively, the view below featuring both chapels might just be considered at a stretch (but I wouldn't seriously argue for it, as it requires too much explanation). No, I think this slot should just be occupied by a decent general view of Balliol, and the only question is which. For reasons I've already given, I don't like the "original" option: as a view (diagonally across Broad Street from the south-east) it's too similar to the agreed infobox image, and there's too much clutter in the middle of it. I don't really like Option 4, because of too much foreground shadow. Option 3 is OK, but if set on the right-hand side of the page would appear to be facing out of the page, and it's also aligned slightly erratically. So on the whole, I'd prefer Option 2, Filetime's proposal, which is a good clear photo (and could, of course, be recaptioned as "entrance to Balliol College" rather than "frontage").

• 
  Trinity chapel with Balliol chapel at left

Other points of view welcome, of course. GrindtXX (talk) 01:17, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@GrindtXX and JCrue:, I like Chapel option 3. Filetime (talk) 04:12, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

@GrindtXX and Filetime: Re: the Balliol-Trinity image, if it only serves to be decorative ("eye-candy") and not illustrate that part of the article, then I think it would be best to remove it completely. There's nothing saying every section of an article needs an image ;). For the entrance way image, we can put it in the buildings section instead, where it's more relevant. --JCrue (talk) 19:38, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I made these changes. Happy to continue the discussion if there's a problem. --JCrue (talk) 21:21, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Gordouli

The Gordouli song may or may not share the origins ascribed to it. But "The Balliol Record" printed at least one article in - as far as I recall - the 1970s suggesting that Gordouli himself had been a Trnity undergraduate of the late nineteenth century of non-European ancestry. A lifetime ago, the singing of "Gordouli" was generally followed by chanting which dwelt on this - as at least one Lord Chief Justice, sadly now dead, would have been in a position to confirm, though the exact interpretation is still open to doubt. Perhaps these days Bobby Johnson has resumed his place in the ritual insteadDelahays (talk) 16:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Are you thinking of the article by G. Norman Knight in Balliol College Record 1969 (cited in n37), or are you suggesting there was something else? According to Knight (see n38), Gordouli was Arthur Galletti of Trinity – not non-European, but non-British. (This information could go into the body of the article rather than a footnote, but there have been complaints in the past that this section is already disproportionately long.) GrindtXX (talk) 17:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I've deleted this (I thought so, but I see it's still there - if I deleted anyone else's comment that's my fault and I apologise) mainly for lack of precise evidence. The issue seems to have been that, in the Balliol of the time, Trinity was believed to have admitted, against its own allegedly anti-Balliol principles, a person of dubious origin. (The shouting in my day invited Trnity to "bring out your black men", which might or might not be either virtue-signalling or racist). There is, in fact, a Wikipedia article for Galletti, which is very interesting in itself. He was a Telugu scholar, who after years in the Indian Civil Service, refued to drink the health of King George V. On Empire Day. Immediately after the Jalianwallah Bagh. One might expect Balliol men - even Prime Ministers - to respect that. The words quoted are those of the first stanza (there's a whole anthology of others -also to be found in Wikipedia). The version quoted is probably inaccurate - Bobby Johnson certainly says so, but "And he ought to know" was the version quoted in the Record - and it's certainly more convincing as period dictionDelahays (talk) 18:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

In fact the Wikipedia article on Galletti suggests he refused to drink the King's health in 1918, which would be a year before the Jallianwalah Bagh. But the month and the day make better sense for 1919, which may well be probably wishful thinking. There is a full dress biography of Galletti, by a Stoddart, published in 2011, subtitled "The People's Collector" and I'm seeking it out - he does seem to have been less sympathetic in general to the Empire than EM Forster's District establishment required , and quite willing to stick his neck out. In fact he seems to have gone into print about the Jalianwallah Bagh himself. Unless you have the book(?) better to let this lie for a bit. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.Delahays (talk) 19:22, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The version "Bobby Johnson says so, and he ought to know" is, I find, quoted in Thomas Weber "Our Friend, the Enemy - Elite Education in Britain and Germany before World War I" Princeton 2008, (in a chapter on anti-semitism!), which also mentions Caird's hostility to the admission of a prospective Indian undergraduate to the College in 1903. Perhaps it's a good job Galletti was probably unaware of that - in India he was, among other things, a provider of active encouragement for the ideas of the Co-operative movement, and his father had fought as an officer under Garibaldi.Delahays (talk) 22:08, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Ghislaine Maxwell

Abdo2905, Balliol alumni get at most a sentence in the article, not a whole section. I have therefore moved Ghislaine Maxwell to the Notable people section, following Howard Marks, and condensed the information to one sentence. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Undue weight. TSventon (talk) 11:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)