Talk:Aylesbury Grammar School/Archive 1

The following is an archive of the discussion about whether to include the headmaster's alleged nickname, Steven Harvey, in the main article.

Archived by Victor Greenstreet 10:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

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"Big Steve"

As a pupil of the school I can confirm that "Big Steve" is frequently used to refer to the head. I'd appeal to people who didn't go to the school to stop trying to rewrite the article. Shall we get a vote going on here too? -3 July 2006

"Big Steve" is a commonly used soubriquet for the Headmaster and should be included in the entry.

---I never remember hearing that when I was there (left in 2003). The only big thing about him was his shoes! --Danielsage98 12:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)Spikey

No original research. You need to cite a source for that if you want to keep it in the article. The source needs to be verifiable - the school's website is a good start. what is that thing up there? a vote? arrrrrrrgh kill it --james _{// bornhj (talk)} 07:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Seconded, as I did try to point out to the user(s) trying to get the information included in the article. It would need to be a verifiable reference, preferably externally verifiable otherwise even if it's true, it's not encyclopedic. -- Francs2000 09:45, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I am also a pupil at the school and have started a mini "AGS slang" section (Big Steve isn't the only moniker in use!). Is this acceptable to y'all?

• Not unless its documented in a verifiable source. Original research is not permitted. - pm_shef 19:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean 'verifiable source'? As someone who has gone to the school for the last 3 years, aren't I in a position to confirm these?

• No, because for all we know you could be making it up (I'm not saying you are, just that we need to maintain certain standards). You can take a look at WP:Verifiability, but more or less, a verifiable source is a neutral, third party documented source. Newspaper, news report, book, reliable website, etc. - pm_shef 20:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks for explaining, I see what you mean. I can guarantee those nicknames personally, but I think finding an outside source for informal phrases would be a difficult thing to do.

Another AGS pupil here. How are we supposed to verify stuff like nicknames?

• For the most part, you don't. Nicknames, if not notable enough to be mentioned in verifiable sources, probably aren't notable enough for an encyclopedia. But if you can find a source, feel free to post it! --pm_shef 20:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I sense a danger here of becoming too obsessed with the 'must be verified', 'must be encyclopedia-worthy' rules. Can't we just include "Big Steve" on the page and let people make their own minds about whether to pay attention to it: informing, not censoring or hiding, is what Wikipedia was and is deigned for and for the most part does it very well.

It's not an obsession, it's Wikipedia policy, and an established idea on Wikipedia. --Chris (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

If it was to be included people could make up their own minds about whether to notice it. Wouldn't that be fairer on the people who might wish to note it?

Evening all. Have found that "Big Steve" is mentioned in the school's official end-of-year magazine, the Aylesburian. I trust this counts as a decent enough source, and so have added "Big Steve" into the article. Victor Greenstreet 21:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Can you provide a link to, or copy of, the reference? If so, then go ahead, until then, it can't be on the page. - pm_shef 21:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• It's a printed book-magazine. Victor Greenstreet 22:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Is it something that is available if I call into the school? I live in Aylesbury and work nearby. -- Francs2000 22:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it's avaliable in school. I'm reading from my personal copy I have at home.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.105.35.198 (talk • contribs).

Why don't you go and delete the whole of the Slang section in the Eton College article as that doesn't contain any references? P.S. when whoever wrote it adds the Slang section back in, add "peanut" (v.t. To pull hard and unexpectedly on another pupil's tie so that the knot ends up very small, like a peanut)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.210.51.67 (talk • contribs).

---Hmmm. Well, would anyone have any objections if we were to stress that the nickname was just a nickname, eg "The present headmaster is Steven Harvey. An unofficial nickname that is claimed to be used by pupils and staff is Big Steve..."—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.35.198 (talk • contribs)

• I wasn't aware that Eton College's article also had a slang section, but be sure I'm going to it next to take a look. In terms of the above example, I think that is an appropriate way to word it... but I'm still reluctant to agree... - pm_shef 23:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
• As am I, unless Francs2000 gets a hold of that book. You still have to verify it even if you word it like that, as it's still original research. And even then, I'd contest the fact that it was notable enough for inclusion. --james _{// bornhj (talk)} 01:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• I think the key point here is now notability. Whether or not Eton has a slang section is largely irrelevant - the two schools are not comparable when it comes to public knowledge (and therefore interest.) Arguably, Eton is a name known throughout the world, while AGS is - frankly - not. So a nickname of the current headmaster who has been there for a fraction of the time that the school has existed is not of interest. Those who comment here from anonymous IPs and alter the main article to include his name often do so from an IP registered to AGS which has been responsible for a lot of vandalism (other than adding 'Big Steve' - which has been interpreted by some as vandalism as some as simply an unverifiable reference.) Lastly I might add that the same IPs started a AGS article at Uncyclopedia which appears to have been deleted by the admin for breaking the vanity policies (it listed teachers by name, for example.) The authors of that article had (without permission) uploaded a photo which they believed to be of myself in order to take 'revenge' for my reversion of their vandalism here - this is by-the-by but I thought I'd mention the immaturity of those responsible. My point is that there are other places where these pupils can express themselves and record the nickname. Uncyclopedia was one of them but they broke the rules and their page was removed. I think it's time they found somewhere else to record the information they are interested in, as very few others are interested to have it here. Kymara 11:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

As another former pupil, I can't see how the fact that the headmaster might have the nickname "Big Steve" has any relevance. Bit of a parochial fact and not the kind of thing you would want to find out in an encyclopaedia...? BTW does anyone have a picture of the school crest anywhere that could go in the box on the right?--Rbj2001 18:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

What about having a "Trivia" section?

No verifiable source has been provided. Refering to a magazine that cannot be viewed online is not a verifiable source. -- Dcflyer 20:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

So anything that's not online is not verifiable. Right. That's ,most of Wikipedia's sources gone then.

I'm sure what Dcflyer is not true, check the wikipedia links above about Verifiability. For example an old Encyclopedia Brittania (sp?) is often used as a source Kymara 08:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I have offered to call into the school to verify all of this seeing as I live nearby, however no-one has yet taken me up on that offer. -- Francs2000 14:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

What makes you think that your "verification" is worth so much more than the pupils or other people's exactly?

You still don't seem to understand the No Original Research policy. The magazine isn't a well known source so another user wants to check it out. Even after it's been checked out, the inclusion of the nickname Big Steve in the article is highly dubious as it is unlikely to be notable or interesting - as other comments on this page have confirmed. Lastly your continued vandalism of Wikipedia pages means that you are lucky that your requests are even tolerated. Have some respect for Wikipedia and read through the pages people suggest to you and please stop vandalising. And sign your comments please. Kymara 10:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Straight from Wikipedia:Verifiability. Please read the whole thing

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. For academic subjects, the sources should preferably be peer-reviewed. Sources should also be appropriate to the claims made: outlandish claims beg strong sources.

The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic.

Please stop adding in your headmaster information. Although we appreciate your passion to include information in wikipedia, we can not allow it to be included. Please discuss this matter here, and if you continue this page may have to be semiprotected, which would unfortunately stop you from adding in other information about your school. --mboverload@ 22:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I give up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.47.17 (talk • contribs)

I hope we can work together constructively in the future =D --mboverload@ 22:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As another current pupil, I agree that "Big Steve" is a nickname that has been used from about a year onwards from his arrivial, known by many pupils within the school. And I have been there since the start of his tenure. I understand that I have no reference for this, but as previously stated it is mentioned within the school magazine. This is not avaliable via electronic copy, and can only be purchased through the school. Placing any form of the magazine online for reference would break copyright laws, and there is a line just underneath this text box that states "Content must not violate any copyright", which would be fairly stupid for me to post. I would also like to point out that a lot of you are deleting this whole thing, without a reference to prove that he is not given this nickname. Surely you must be able to find an article that states "the headmaster does not go by the nickname Big Steve", to be able to consider its removal. I think both sides should be given equal consideration, especially when evidence has been mention. I do no see why permission should be required to ring up the school an verify this- it is not illegal to do so. --172.188.207.54 01:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

why has this caused such an uprising. i am sure that "Big Steve" does not take offence to this nick name. i believe the only reason that it has caused such a comotion is because it may be considered slightly degrading. however, i propse a test. if we need internet varification. can somebody video suitable eveidence that this name does exist and upload it to YouTube.com? would this be considered significant verification?