Talk:Australian feral camel

Comment

Changed: "The Australian camels, roving in the only feral herds of their kind in the world and reckoned to number between 43,000 and 60,000..." to:"The Australian camels, roving in the only feral herds of their kind in the world and reckoned to number between 500,000 and 700,000..."

Based on current estimates: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200504/s1344199.htm http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/camel/index.html http://www.abc.net.au/news/scitech/2002/01/item20020116124339_1.htm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4485105.stm -as well as the number listed at the base of the article.

The suggested maximum of 60.000 for all Australia seems a little odd considering the estimated population just for the state of South Australia alone is 60,000.OzoneO 01:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Parts of this article are taken word for word from other sources without quotes or attribution.

Possible Copyright vio

The first 3-4 paragraphs appear to be lifted word for word without attribution from http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/camel/index.html - Please note that Australian Government materials are not subject to the copyright exemptions relating to the materials of the U.S.A. Government. Staphylococcus 08:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Another Copyright vio?

The paragraph that starts the "History" section ("The Australian camels, roving in the only feral herds of their kind in the world and reckoned to number between 500,000 and 700,000") seems to be a near word-for-word rip-off from the linked article http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198801/camels.down.under.htm. As a matter of fact, the original Wiki article seems to have been an exact rip-off in this section - updates have changed the numbers and some of the wording, but it's still nearly identical. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.169.79.134 (talk) 12:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Definite Copyright Violation

Yet another of Wikipedia's many cut-and-pasted articles is flagrantly displayed here.

Wikipedia's reliability and factualness has improved, but the plagiarism is extensive and deplorable.

As noted a month ago, this is directly lifted from http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198801/camels.down.under.htm Someone even had the gall to list that url as an external link! Maybe they're waiting to see if they'll get in trouble. I think I might just delete most of it to call an administrator's attention.Yopienso 19:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your edit as it had corrupted the page. I also checked the plagiarism and found this on the site it came from:
"Texts of articles copyrighted by Saudi Aramco World or Aramco World may be reprinted, either in print or electronically, without specific prior permission from the publisher."
This means the text can stay for now and can then be edited at lesiure to make it more encyclopedic by anyone interested enough to put in the work. Cheers. Wayne 23:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

see the next statement on said page:

"1. The text must not be edited. Abridgement is permissible only if the abridged text has been previously approved by the editors and the credit states "Abridged from..."

This is not an acceptable license for wikipedia content.

69.203.83.137 (talk) 21:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism or attempt at humor

Also, the number of camels given is wildly inflated from 43,000-60,000 to 500,000-700,000. Yopienso 19:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You missed the dates. There were 60,000 camels in 1988. There were 700,000 camels in 2005. If you check the current 2007 population it is now 1 million. The population doubles every 5 years. Wayne 23:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Wayne, you sound polite and rational--thanks. I'll take your word for it on the camel population. I had missed the first comment on this page.

Double-check that copyright violation question, though. http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/about.us/copyright.and.permission.htm It says the article can't be abridged and that full credit must be given. Yopienso 01:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The material included is complete in terms of the section headings and copied as an encyclopedia article for reference so can possibly claim fair use for omitting non encyclopedic content. I believe updating the (1988) copyright material in the artical with current 2007 data is probably acceptable and not classed as abridgement (I'm no lawyer so I could be wrong). The only violation left is there is no credit given on the page itself but it is still linked to the source as required and credit is given in this talk page so would probably be acceptable to Saudi Ramco as the talk page is part of the article (and there is no commercial benifit). The material in question appears to have been here for years with no problem. The copy/paste part should be completely rewritten so that copyright will no longer apply but until then the text should be kept available not only as a base to work from but as it also provides substance relevant to the article. The finished product will still link to Saudi Ramco as a reference so it's a win win situation. Wayne 02:10, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me. Maybe someone savvier than I can add the reference. Notice the article has been tagged for no references. Over and out. Yopienso 04:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the copyvio history section. If the first paragraphs are also copyvio, those should be removed as well. 69.203.83.137 (talk) 15:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

See above. The source gives permission. If you still have concerns, then rewrite the material instead of deleting. You also deleted a lot of material from other sources that is definately not copyrighted. Wayne (talk) 16:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(1) the source does not 'give permission'; it specifically states that:

"The text must not be edited. Abridgement is permissible only if the abridged text has been previously approved by the editors and the credit states "Abridged from..."

This is not an acceptable license for wikipedia content, which must be freely editable. See Wikipedia:Copyvio :

"One of the most important aspects of Wikipedia is that its text (not media; see below) may be freely redistributed, reused and built upon by anyone, under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License. This means it is essential that all text added to Wikipedia is compatible with this license."

(2) by 'alot' you must mean this one clause at the beginning and 3 sentences at the end of the section:

...estimated to number between 500,000 and 700,000...

The Northern Territory Parks and Wildlife Commission estimated a population up to 700,000 in 2005, expected to double in eight years, jeopardising cattle pastures.[1]

Australia boasts the largest population of feral camels and the only herd of dromedary (one-humped) camels exhibiting wild behaviour in the world. Live camels are exported to Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Brunei and Malaysia, where disease-free wild camels are prized as a delicacy. Australia's camels are also exported as breeding stock for Arab camel racing stables and for use in tourist venues in places such as the United States.[2]

[Everything else is directly from the Saudio Aramco article]

Cheers, 69.203.83.137 (talk) 22:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone

A lot of this article sounds more like a newspaper article than an encyclopedia... --Wolf530 (talk) 20:28, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

In what ways? See I just read it and it seems fine to me. Crafty (talk) 21:29, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fine too. I've removed the tag. HuskyHuskie (talk) 02:42, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Saudi Aramco copyvio

See the above discussion. An archival copy of http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198801/camels.down.under.htm is available here.

Present version of this article (unwikified):

• Camels in Australia are the only feral herds of their kind in the world, and are estimated to number more than 1,000,000, with the capability of doubling in number every nine years.[1] The Australian camels are descendants of camels imported into Australia, beginning in the mid-19th century, to help lay the foundations of the nation. Shipments came largely from the Indian subcontinent, but animals were also landed from Muscat, Yemen, Iraq and the Canary Islands.
  
  Arriving in a trickle that swelled to a flood by the early 20th century, the camels were often guided and cared for by Muslim cameleers known as 'Afghans'. Handlers came from lands as far away as Egypt, Turkey and Persia, though most — with their camels — hailed from northern India and what today is Pakistan. But the men were all, almost always incorrectly, called Afghans or simply "Ghans." The name stuck to a section of the 2,900 km (1,800 mi) transcontinental Central Australia Railway linking Port Augusta in the south to Darwin in the north. Camels hauled material and supplies to the men building that line beginning in 1879, and the segment of track from Port Augusta to Alice Springs was called "The Ghan" until it was relaid near the end of the 20th century.

Saudi Aramco:

• The one-humped dromedaries, roving in the only wild herds of their kind in the world and reckoned to number between 43,000 and 60,000, are descendants of camels imported into Australia, beginning in the mid-1800's, to help lay the foundations of the nation. Shipments came largely from the Indian subcontinent, but animals were also landed from Muscat, Yemen, Iraq and the Canary Islands.
  
  Arriving in a trickle that swelled to a flood by the early 20th century, the camels were often guided and cared for by Muslim cameleers. Handlers came from lands as far away as Egypt, Turkey and Persia, though most - with their camels - hailed from northern India and what today is Pakistan. But the men were all, almost always incorrectly, called Afghans or simply "Ghans."

Apart from minor word changes - which do not solve the copyright problem - this is obvious copying. The Saudi Aramco website does not state that the text may be modified and redistributed in modified form and that there are essentially no restrictions on further usage apart from keeping the same copyright conditions. See WP:Copyrights. Boud (talk) 23:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

This page is listed at the subpage Wikipedia:Copyright_problems/2011_July_29, so copyright clerks can deal with it after 3 August, or admins after 5 August: see Wikipedia:Copyright_problems#Closing_listings. Boud (talk) 23:10, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://web.archive.org/web/20080801152045/http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/camel/pubs/camel.pdf and http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198801/camels.down.under.htm. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. NortyNort (Holla) 08:07, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Good work! Still a bit of cleanup needed, though: http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/camel-factsheet.html

• camel-factsheet.html: Many different types and breeds of camels were brought into Australia, but most were from India. They included the large, fleece-bearing, two-humped Bactrian camel of China and Mongolia, the elite Bishari and Bikaneri riding camels of Arabia, and the powerful, freight-carrying lowland Indian camels, capable of moving huge loads of up to 800 kilograms. The feral camels found in Australia are a meld of these breeds.
• wikipedia article lead: Most of the camel breeds brought to Australia originated in India. Included are the Bactrian camel of China and Mongolia, the Bishari riding camel of North Africa and Arabia, the pedigreed Bikaneri war camel of Rajasthan in India, and the powerful, freight-carrying lowland Indian camel.

The main error in the gov.au page was repeated here: the sentence makes it sound like Bactrian camels are a breed like Bishari or Bikaneri instead of a different species. i'm rewriting these two sentences totally and shifting them to the history section. Boud (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

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Broken Hill terrorist attack

The Broken Hill terrorist attack is appropriately linked with a short summary in the history section at the end of a long section on Muslim cameleers because it is a notable attack carried out by two men who had arrived in Australia as camel drivers, had worked as camel drivers, and were living and working in a sizeable community of current and former camel-drivers - one of the attackers was the imam of the community of Muslim camel drivers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:19, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I'e removed your re-addition - it's inappropriate for this article - the attack wasn't carried out by camels. Bahudhara (talk) 12:43, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Unclear Sentence, "only herd ... exhibiting wild behavior"

The statement "the only herd of dromedary (one-humped) camels exhibiting wild behaviour in the world" is both unclear and without citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamgoldberg (talk • contribs) 11:24, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Bactrian camels

I have removed references to feral Bactrian camels in Australia. Although this BBC article refers to them being present, this appears to be an error - I can find no other reliable reference to feral Bactrian camels in Australia. This forum thread references Introduced Mammals of the World (Long) indicating that only five Bactrians were ever imported, and they are certainly not referred to in standard Australian reference texts (field guides, etc.), which exclusively include dromedaries. If anyone has further evidence I invite them to share it. Frickeg (talk) 03:57, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Comment

The lead section of the article is lacking in a true overview of the topic. More could be added on the role of the camels in Australia including tourism, aboriginal relationship with camels, and the food industry. In the aboriginal section clarification is needed on the purpose of mentioning Camels and the Pitjantjara the documentary. I am confused on its relevance to the topic. I also think the mention of indigenous camel art should be its own section and have a development on the topic. The article’s purpose is to discuss feral camels, yet the second picture, located in the history section, is of a domesticated camel. Much of the information in the article discusses domestic camels as well, should the title be changed? This includes the use of camels for transport and tourism. Additionally there is a section on camel milk being produced, how is this connected with feral camels? Can feral camels be used for milk creations? Lastly this article is lacking on the topics of behavior, movement, diseases, predators, habitat, and diets of feral camels. Ella Settle (talk) 20:31, 13 February 2021 (UTC)