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Latest comment: 12 years ago19 comments3 people in discussion
Okay, the current to-do list is at the top of this page, transcluded from Talk:Augmentative and alternative communication/to do. I've gone through and improved the formatting of all the references. FW has added images. Poule has done a thorough read-through, changing the organization a lot. At this point, there may still be ways of improving the article--there always will be--but are there things that have to improved before FA nomination? If so, what are they? – Quadell(talk) 15:09, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I haven't been able to edit recently. I've been incredibly busy, and still am. I would really like to have a chance to do a bit more before submitting to FA; I haven't got to the bottom of the article yet, and I've mentally noted some areas that need improving still, such that I wouldn't feel comfortable going to FA quite yet. I have a long journey tomorrow, without internet, but I will try to work on an open browser and save when I get to my destination. Ideally, if people can avoid editing tomorrow during the day, that would be great, so as to avoid losing work in an edit conflict... but I guess it can always be fixed up later. --Poule (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
That's fine, no rush. – Quadell(talk) 22:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Oh, well, I guess I don't have names formatted consistently in the references. Right now, I mostly show the full names for books (e.g. "Andrews-Salvia, Melissa; Roy, Nelson; Cameron, Rosalea M."), but only first initials for journal articles (e.g. "Bryen, D. N.; Potts, B. B.; Carey, A. C."). But I'm not sure why. And even that's not consistent. Should I just use first initials for everything? – Quadell(talk) 15:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure, but I surely the MOS will have some views? I suspect being consistent is the main thing, though. Other things I can think of is that there is something about putting some code like nbsp or something between numbers and words, to make a non-breaking space; also isn't there some tool that check for disambiguation links? I also think it might be worth looking at the MOS for images. I seem to remember something about ideally them going back and forth, left to right, but maybe I am wrong. The image captions could be updated (where relevant) to include information about the kind of programming/vocabulary organization that is being shown. I tried to take the photos to show both a variety of devices but also ways of organizing messages. --Poule (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
The MoS doesn't say, and the material at Wikipedia:Citing_sources (and examples linked to at the "See also" section) show a variety of formats, even in the same document. Recent FAs such as White-bellied Sea Eagle, Malagasy cuisine, and Cirrus cloud use some references with first names and some with initials only. So I'm thinking it's not a big deal. (Also, I already used the dabfinder tool.) – Quadell(talk) 22:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay, sounds good. --Poule (talk) 01:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I've got no particular areas I want to change, and I've got quite a bit of time free at the moment, so feel free to a) submit when ready, or b) offload any of the more mind-numbing tasks to me :) Failedwizard (talk) 20:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
You're the best, FW. I can't think of anything at the moment, though. – Quadell(talk) 22:24, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi FW, thanks. If you had time to work on the photo captions to include info about vocabulary organization (ie visual scenes, grid, category-based, activity-based etc that would be great,). BTW thanks for getting the POSSUM photo. It's a great addition. --Poule (talk) 01:13, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Will do - though I'll get you have a clear run on your journey edits first - I have it penciled in for Sunday... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Failedwizard (talk • contribs) 12:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Amazingly I did have internet and so have managed to get through a fair bit, but the journey will shortly end, and then I definitely won't have access for a while. I still have some things I want to work on; in particular something about incidence, some very brief stuff about Light's purposes and competencies, using a multimodal approach, and some other stuff. I also bugs me that the CP section is so short: this is a huge subset of AAC users and surely could be expanded a tiny bit- does anybody have anything on this? I am now far from my books. Also the Lead mentions using AAC to improve comprehension and this is discussed nowhere in the body, as far as I can see. --Poule (talk) 18:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I've extended captions and moved a couple of images slightly because the text has changed around them (very minor moves). I'm slighly wary of extending too much... I argree that they are all great things to put in, but are these things that have to be done before an FA nomination or can they be done after? Failedwizard (talk) 10:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
The captions look great, thanks. BTW I've been finding quite a few typos as I go along. It might be worth somebody having another look too, as I probably didn't catch everything. I don't think that much needs to be added, but one of the criteria for FA is being comprehensive and the other is that the lead summarizes the article. We need to be personally satisfied that the criteria are filled before we put it before others, most likely non-content experts, to review. I'll try to get to it in the next day or two.
Started doing a proofing, real-life intervened... should be back within 24 hours. Failedwizard (talk) 13:13, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, real life is more important. Of course, when I thought I wouldn't have internet I did, and when I thought I would, I don't. I'm working on some stuff off-line however, so hopefully soon I can formally get back to this. --Poule (talk) 17:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Just finnished proofing, reads well, fixed typos as I went along Failedwizard (talk) 20:36, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Hey Poule, I see you're in the middle of a major edit again, but I wanted to ask about some sourcing. It looks to me like the first reference (American Speech-Language-Hearing Association) is no longer used. Is that correct? Also, note 77 is borked at the moment. – Quadell(talk) 16:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Thanks; Back on again after a couple of hours in internet limbo and working offline, though who knows for how long! The ASHA will be used again once I'm done, and I'll try and fix that broken one while I am at my edit. Poule (talk) 17:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Reference check
Latest comment: 12 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
"Traumatic brain injury results in severe motor speech disorders—particularly dysarthria in roughly a third of cases."
I don't have the reference handy ('Characteristics of verbal impairment in closed head injured patients.') but this sentance looks like it should say one of:
'"Traumatic brain injury results in severe motor speech disorders (particularly dysarthria) in roughly a third of cases.
""Traumatic brain injury results in dysarthria in roughly a third of cases"
"Traumatic brain injury results in severe motor speech disorders - a third of these cases of disorder are dysarthria'
could someone with the reference check? It looks a little ambiguous as it stands... Thanks Failedwizard (talk) 20:23, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Good questions. I can get access to the article, but... the source is from 1986, so I think we can find a more recent stat. I'll try to look something up today or tomorrow. – Quadell(talk) 16:37, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
This one looks more up-to-date, and could be useful[1]Poule (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
That source is great, thanks. It indicates that the third interpretation is correct. I'll switch sources and reword. – Quadell(talk) 12:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Resolved
Getting to Featured status
Latest comment: 12 years ago24 comments3 people in discussion
This article recently made it to "Good Article" status. I hope to soon nominate it for Featured status as well. Before I do, I know I need to continue to tighten up the references (which I've been doing), and I want to organize the images better. Are there other things the article needs? Ideas, anyone? – Quadell(talk) 01:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
oooooooh... well that's certainly a vote of confidence in the article. I can certainly provide some more pictures if there are concepts that you think might be better illistrated - personally I'd like to see some content on the ethics of vocab selection in AAC, and some information on things like - number of users as a proportion of the population, but that's going to require a bit of a research dig so I might be a little while providing the references. Failedwizard (talk) 07:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Those sound like good additions. – Quadell(talk) 14:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
I finished cleaning up the references, so now I want to look at image organization. I've created two drafts:
User:Quadell/AAC draft 1, with eye-gaze chart use at the top, and aids shown in the appropriate section.
I'm leaning toward draft 1. What do you all think? – Quadell(talk) 14:28, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Hmmh, to put cards on the table I lean towards draft 2 (thank you for putting the drafts up by the way, it never occured to me to do that - would have helped for some other questions). But I think there is a probably a compromise availible here, if anyone else pipes up I'm happy to take the majority vote, there are a few lurkers knocking around... In either case, I think there are some more photos that can appear (and would be useful to illistrate half a dosen related articles) so we may have more of a choice (I've got three I can take from my desk *grin* ). In this case I think that shorter captions would help in the composite images, and maybe six photos rather than four - would you mind if I tweak the draft a little to see how it looks? I've got no idea about the protocal on such things... :s Failedwizard (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
What I would say, is that I've got a picture of Hawking up as the main image on the Speech_generating_device page - but that's only because it's the instantly recognisable person for the general public, in reality, most of the users of AAC is a long way from him - but it's a symptom of an overall problem with the area - that any picture of a single user could be taken to be very different to a large proportion of other users (I should say, this it mainly me working thought the problem aloud) hmm... if we going to have a single user image how about the over-the-shoulder shot from the bottom Speech_generating_device thought that is kind-of biased to electronic aids... it's a very difficult area... should we give it a few days to see if any opinions pop up from the community? Failedwizard (talk) 15:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Will put something together. I've just reread the messages I wrote earlier - I do apologise for the quality of writting; I was all over the place! Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I create a suitable page - currently the only changes I've made are to the captions, the two things I want to do are to add a two more pictures to make the set less focused on the electronic side of things. I propose to add a picture of someone using sign language, and to add a version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eyegaze.jpg that is cropped a little so that it fits better with the others. If that sounds like a reasonable adjustment (and I should stress that I'm not promoting the composite idea over the single image idea at this stage - just trying to make the composite idea be as representitive as possible) then I'll do some cropping and take a suitable picture for the sign lanuage one (I had a look around and could see many that would reduce in size well) Failedwizard (talk) 11:53, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I should point out that the suitable page was User:Failedwizard/AAC draft 1. Also I've been struggling to find much on the numbers of devices out there - the annual reports of the big companies only give info on the cash revenue and I can find much other info. Will keep digging. Also - I had a good play with the references of Speech_generating_device, and learned a lot in the processs - thank you! Though this now means I should go through them again and correct all the strange bits I missed when I started doing them :s Failedwizard (talk) 11:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I think your captions are better if the composite image is at the top of the page. I think my captions are better if the composite image is in the "Aided AAC" section. – Quadell(talk) 14:51, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Hello everybody, and well done both of you for all the work that you have done to improve this article. It is great that it has got to Good Article standard, and I particularly appreciate Quadell's work at giving page numbers for B and M!! I had started doing it myself at one point, so I know exactly how long it takes to do!
As you both know, I think, the article was basically rewritten by students of mine at McGill as part of a M.Sc. project, and our original aim was to get it to FA standard. I am therefore thoroughly in favour of getting the article it there. But I do think it will take a little work to do so, particularly in terms of comprehensiveness. I am willing to pitch and help do in the next little while. As a starter, though:
I have my questions about the composite pictures, especially for the lead image; much/most AAC used in the world is low tech (sign, gestures, boards), and to just show technology isn't appropriate. Failedwizard makes a similar point above. I also originally tried to put the images close to relevant text description of the type of AAC, which has been lost now to a certain extent. I love the picture of the woman using eye-gaze, but I don't think it is clear to the uninitiated what she is doing. Ideally we should have a clear picture of person using an AAC system, to really show what AAC is about.
Following on from the above, we need to make sure there is a worldwide perspective. There is a fair US-centric flavour to some of the text (e.g. history section). I also think that's a good reason not to worry too much about trying to find out how many devices are out there, as it will be so company, country and time specific, as well as likely original research if we aren't careful.
I think we should discuss putting the history section to lower in the article. While I agree it seems logical in some ways to have it first, it really isn't the most important information. I note that featured articles such as Autism and Asperger syndrome put the history at the bottom, which makes more sense to me, and I think follows some sort of standard medical type layout at WP.
I will try to get to work on some of this, and get back with any other comments and questions I have soon. --Poule (talk) 15:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
To address only the History query, I would be inclined to argue that Autism and Asperger syndrome are disorders that, one assumes, have been around for much of human history. Then the history sections on their page are almost 'historys of the use of the term X' rather than histories of the disorders per sayhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Augmentative_and_alternative_communication&action=edit§ion=11. Whereas, AAC is a set of systems or coping tactics that are constructed - I would say that the Sign_language or Braille articles would be much closer parellels (neither are FA, but both are mature articles that fit together nicely), and they set the context of the article with the history section at the top - but, of course, consensus would prevail. :) Failedwizard (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, you are correct of course that there is a difference between a "disorder" article and this topic, and yes Sign Language etc might be a closer parallel. However, Sign Language and various other forms of AAC have likely been around through all human history too, wouldn't you say? And I'd argue that the history sections should go lower in those articles too. We want the key, current information at the top, in my view. Anyway, I'll try cleaning up that section a bit and then maybe we can try a move. I agree an introduction is required, however. --Poule (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for getting back involved in this, Poule! I really appreciate the effort you put into the article, and it's great to have another experienced hand. You have some great suggestions. (It doesn't matter to me where the history section goes.) – Quadell(talk) 18:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I'm keen that some of the other lurking editors get an oppertunity to get their say on some of the topics turning up, so I'd like to spin some of the topics out into seperate sections - I'm going to see about doing so for the images now. Apologies if i'm being a bit bold - by all means edit my summary back in if I'm getting carried away. :) Failedwizard (talk) 21:17, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
So now...
So History looks fantastic and the sources have been really heavily reviewed - so what are the next things to add to the todo list? Is it the GOCE as suggested by Christin? Failedwizard (talk) 13:33, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't personally think that will be necessary... but I'm not opposed, if someone thinks it would be useful to nominate it. I think it's close to ready, though I suspect Poule will want to examine it more fully beforehand. – Quadell(talk) 13:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)l
Sounds cool - out of interest (and partly for my general developement as an editor) whats the general timescale one would expect from GOCE? is it the sort of thing that happens in short period while we tighen up some other bits or would it delay the whole process? Failedwizard (talk) 13:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
That does seam like a lot of time if we are reasonably happy with the prose. Do we think it's sensible to set a dae for when we put forward for an FA? Then we can concerntate any clean-up efforts? Failedwizard (talk) 15:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't have a strong opinion, but I guess I'd rather skip it. – Quadell(talk) 15:10, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm having a confused morning... skip setting the date or skip GOCE (either of which are fine with me, I'm just a bit confused) Failedwizard (talk) 10:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I think Quadell means the copyedit thing, and I'd agree. However, I wonder whether a peer review isn't a good idea, now that Quadell has mentioned it. I think it would be very useful to get some outside eyes about the comprehensibility etc before facing FAC. Or at least we could list for a PR, and hope we get one sooner than a month, and withdraw if it takes too long and we are satisfied. We can't go to FAC with the Bliss thing is dispute, so maybe it is worth putting the time to some purpose. --Poule (talk) 12:22, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
today's edit
Latest comment: 12 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
As you will have seen, I've made a large number of changes today. I'm sorry that I had to do it mostly in one edit, but circumstances meant that I was mostly working off-line. The big things are:
I've moved vocabulary organization into rate enhancement, since efficient communication is the goal
I've made a heading above aided and unaided communication. I'm not wedded to the actual title "Forms of AAC" but I think we need something.
I've added some short bits about Light's purposes and competencies to the assessment and implementation section
I've added some info about incidence, well-known users etc
I fixed a bunch more typos etc.
And the big one, I've moved the history to the bottom again. I know that Failedwizard has said in the past that s/he prefers it at the top, but I still think that this is a better arrangement. Why?
While the linear approach is tempting, an encyclopedia article should put the key, current information first. Readers shouldn't have to wade through the history to get to the most up-to-date info. In this I am quite influenced by the WP:MEDMOS section suggestions. I know this isn't really a medical article, but I think the same reasoning applies here about why Penicillin or Autism focusses on current knowledge first before tackling the past and outdated treatments/ideas.
The AAC history section contains concepts and terms which are now explained earlier in the article. For people unfamiliar with AAC, the section will now make much more sense.
I'll be glad to hear what others think about this (and the other changes of course), and if the consensus is to replace it to the top, that's fine with me. And maybe, the bottom isn't right either. Perhaps it should be above the special populations section. I'm open to that too. Poule (talk) 22:32, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Oh yes.. If anybody has time it would be good to check that we've linked only the first mention of things, and that we are consistent in capitalizing disease names etc as well as hyphens. And what do you think about the use of inverted commas for "scanning", "group-item scanning" etc. Would italics be better? --Poule (talk) 23:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I've begun a thorough review, and I've made some repairs already. A few points so far:
I think the history section works best at the end.
I'm concerned about "Excellent users of AAC show communicative competence..." It sounds like certain people are deemed "excellent", which is not what we mean. Can we reword this?
I fixed a lot of hyphen and source formatting problems.
I think terms like autism should be linked where they are first mentioned (in "Scope"), and also the first time they are mentioned in the section devoted to the disease.
I will continue reviewing this over the next few days. – Quadell(talk) 13:27, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Switched 'Excellent' for 'Some' for the time being, but I'd agree that a bit of rewording would be good :)
I've read through it, and it seems good to me. The links, capitalization, and punctuation are good. Are we happy? Is it ready? – Quadell(talk) 15:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I vote ready (admittedly I have no frame of reference - but I'm young and adventurous) Failedwizard (talk) 16:30, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
FAC chat
Latest comment: 12 years ago14 comments3 people in discussion
Hello all. A couple of things. I notice that Courcelles has withdrawn the commons deletion request for the communication book picture. Not sure what we want to do about this? Can we return the picture to the article, do you think?
I am also getting mildly concerned that we have had no more reviews in about 2 weeks, and the article is creeping to the bottom of the list and may fall off the bottom. I suspect it is partly because it is a rather esoteric subject, unfamiliar to many of the regular reviewers. Do you think it would be worth posting on some of the project noticeboards (e.g. disability) to inform people of the candidacy and ask if anybody would like to review it? I don't know if it is kosher, but I imagine if it is neutrally worded it would be okay. In the meantime, I think I will post to the FAC page just to update that we have dealt with the issues raised to date. --Poule (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Another couple of things. Personally, I don't like the photo of Hawking that we have. There are some really nice ones here(especially the ones from NASA) which have compatible licenses for Commons. Shall we pick one and upload it? I also noticed these lightwriter pictures on Commons [2][3][4] which might be useful somewhere, if not in this article then elsewhere.
It also occurs to me that we haven't provided alt text descriptions of the images for those with visual problems. Not good for a disability related article!! --Poule (talk) 21:25, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I think the alt-text is a very good point. I do think there might be other pictures, at the same time I think it might be a good idea if we picked a new one before getting rid of the old, maybe? :(Failedwizard (talk) 21:39, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Also, It might take some time to get permission for one of the other hawking-ones, I'd very much like Quadell's input here - I've got a suspicion that just being 'Creative Commons-licensed content' on Flickr isn't enough, as per Wikipedia:Upload/Flickr, which surprised the daylights out of me when I nearly came unstuck by it. Of course, I could be very wrong on this indeed. :( Failedwizard (talk) 21:47, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, Quadell's input would be great but I'm pretty sure that photos on US government employees are free, and some of the Hawking ones are.e.g. [5], and there are also others available that have the right set of symbols listed. Poule (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
That is an awesome photo... I'm going to take a stab at the corrections listed at the FAC if you don't mind - thought I'd give you a headsup so we don't cross streams :) Failedwizard (talk) 22:20, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Never mind :) Would do you me a favour and pop something on my talkpage when you've done a run-through so I have a look at anything left over? :) have fun! Failedwizard (talk) 22:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Why don't you start from the bottom of the list and we can meet in the middle? :-)Poule (talk) 22:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Give me five min for a cup of tea and I'll be right with you. Failedwizard (talk) 22:35, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello, sorry, I've been away for a few days. It's true that not all CC-licensed images are acceptable. cc-by and cc-by-sa are fine, but cc-nd or cc-nc are not. Most of these are nc (non-commercial) or nd (no derivatives), so we can't use them. (I've had a lot of luck, however, e-mailing Flickr users and telling them "I'd like to use your image on Wikipedia, but I only can if you're willing to change the license". So if any of them are really good, it's worth a try.)
But I believe anything created by NASA is in the Public Domain and can be used here. This one says "Photo Credit: (NASA/Paul Alers)", so you could upload it and tag it {{PD-USGov-NASA}}. Great work on the FA nomination, by the way! – Quadell(talk) 18:43, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. I've uploaded a few, and picked one, but feel free switch it for another if you like it better. I almost wondered about cropping one so as to show Hawking and his device better, but leave that up to others.
BTW, is either of you good at programming little videos or computer simulations or whatever they are called? Things like this. [6] I was wondering how easy or difficult it would be to make a little demonstration of the various different scanning types. e.g. row column, circular etc. A picture saving a thousand words and all? Probably just a crazy idea.--Poule (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
I wish! I'm afraid I don't have the software for that. – Quadell(talk) 12:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
We can build that, we have the technology. Just logging in to say I'm going to be offwiki for up to 48 hours with family stuff. Will probably answer talk page posts and such though... Failedwizard (talk) 19:12, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Excellent, I look forward to seeing what your wizardry can produce. I don't believe you failed wizardry school at all! --Poule (talk) 00:46, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
FAC followup
Latest comment: 12 years ago16 comments4 people in discussion
Well, that is disappointing. Frankly, I am not terribly surprised though: so few reviews, and no supports in 3+ weeks pretty much doomed us. On the plus side, we got no "opposes" which is great! I don't know what you guys want to do, but if you'd like to have another go in a month or so, then I'd support that. In the meantime I'd like to suggest:
we request a formal peer review: Cryptic's comments/suggestions make it even clearer to me that we need this. If Cryptic could/would to continue the reviews s/he has been doing that would be wonderful, but I'd suggest requesting yet another voice too via Peer review.
See below. For the record, I am a eunuch. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:51, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Does that mean we should use the pronoun 'e', rather than he/she? Failedwizard (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Can we go straight to Peer review or is there a mandatory waiting period? If the former, I voe nominate today, otherwise postpone decision. Failedwizard (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
we add the alttext
All in favour - but not got much experience of what precisely to write as alttext, I'm fairly low on VI experience, can take a shot if you like? Failedwizard (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
we get the marvellous scanning demo that Failedwizard is going to conjure out of computing brilliance.
Will new section this below Failedwizard (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
as I mentioned above, I think part of our problem with FAC is that most FAC review regulars don't feel knowledgeable/comfortable about the subject matter; on WP disability content experts are sadly few and far between. If we do go back to FAC, then let's at least inform editors on the relevant noticeboards know about the candidacy, so that they can review the article if they choose.
What do you think? I've made some of them before but didn't always get a response, so I'd be glad to hear your opinions on these suggestions - and any others that you have - so that we can move forward together. --Poule (talk) 00:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm game to keep pushing hard. I plan to go big rather than go home :) Failedwizard (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it was disappointing. The delegate who closed the nomination indicated that it was merely because no one had finished a review and supported, and said "You'll probably have better luck at FAC if you start afresh in a few weeks." I personally don't feel that it needs a peer review. That would obviously take a lot of time, and we could do that, and it might improve the article. But it might also be a waste of time. (I'm confident that it's already at FA quality; it just needs more participation.) My suggestion would be to wait a couple weeks and resubmit, and this time do more to invite reviews.
Cryptic C62, thank you for your review, sincerely. I only wish you'd been given a chance to complete it. Next time it's submitted, if you finished your review, that might be enough. If someone else reviews, that would be excellent. (Perhaps we shot ourselves in the foot by having Poule, FW, and me all nominating, with no one left to review? Perhaps if the strategy had been different -- Poule nominating, and FW and me reviewing -- it would have been different? Ah, water under the bridge.) But anyway, this article clearly deserves to be an FA, and I think we can get it there with persistence. – Quadell(talk) 13:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Shall we say renominate on October 1st? Gives us a nice solid target... and we can do a bit of begging for reviews at the same time. Failedwizard (talk) 13:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
It seems like we have to wait two weeks before requesting a formal peer review, which is too bad, but I still think it would be worth doing as if it goes well it can lead to an early support at FAC - which can obviously be very helpful- and strategic. I also think that we are too close to the article, and getting more outside eyes would iron out things before rather than at FAC.
I'm going to be "on the road" for a good chunk of the next month, away from my books and with uncertain internet. I'd rather we wait for resubmission until I get back on October 7th. So my suggestion is that we submit for a peer review on the 24th and hope we get a quick bite; if we do, so much the better and we can work on that for a week or so. If not, we can always decide to withdraw the peer review request and try again at FAC without it.
BTW, I have a feeling that supports by those involved in editing the article wouldn't have counted for much! I'm sure the delegates have that sort of thing figured out! --Poule (talk) 19:15, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I see you point, but I'd still vote to nominate back for FAC soon as possible. I promise not to rename SGD, split the article, or move history back before you're back if it helps :) Quadell, it looks like your vote - I imagine the commons drive might be a factor for you? Failedwizard (talk) 21:21, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Failedwizard, I'm afraid my funnybone is missing with regards to this last post, and smiley faces don't make the incorrect suppositions any better at all. I suggested we wait a whole 6 extra days so that this article can become featured as quickly and smoothly as possible - not because I don't trust you, or whatever it is you seem to imagine. For example, just yesterday you asked me to answer a review question because you didn't have the source; how is going to look on the first few make-or-break days of FAC if we are not all available to answer questions and comments, with sources ready to hand? What's the hurry in any case? We want it to pass with flying colours, and if we get all our ducks in a row it'll pass much more quickly too. --Poule (talk) 02:14, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
No offense intended, will disagree with less levity in future Failedwizard (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm doing a lot for the Commons drive, yes, and more importantly I'm a candidate to become a steward in the upcoming Wikimedia elections. Voting runs from September 15th to October 6th, so I may be quite distracted during this time. In an unfortunate coincidence, I'll also be out of town from the 14th through the 20th, and then again on the weekend of the 24th, with uncertain internet access. So that's my situation. If anyone wants to submit to PR, I'll help out however I can in the time I have. – Quadell(talk) 12:10, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Good luck for the elections! I'm disapointed to find that I won't be able to vote :( I didn't have enought edits before the deadline :( but let me know if there is anything I can do... Failedwizard (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
¿¡Estas krimpiendo!?
Latest comment: 12 years ago112 comments3 people in discussion
Resolved
"Augmentative and alternative communication (AAC) is an umbrella term" I suggest linking "umbrella term", perhaps to Wiktionary. Non-native speakers of English may not readily understand this idiom.
Done. It turns out there is a WP article which saves me from having to figure out how to link to Wikidictionary within an article. Poule (talk) 22:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
"Modern use of AAC began in the 1950s with systems for users who had lost the use of speech following surgical procedures." I'm not a fan of the use of "users" here. People who employ AAC should not be referred to as a "user" until after they have already started using it. I suggest replacing "users" with "those" or "people" or "patients".
Done. Replaced with "those". FYI Users/consumers is the typical terminology; the term "patients" implies ill-health, which doesn't go down well and thus the term tends not used except in very hospital based settings.Poule (talk) 22:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
In the second paragraph of the lead, it is not clear what part(s) of the world are being referred to. Surely it is not the case that every society felt compelled to include the disabled.
Yes, you are correct. Thank you. Poule (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I am of the opinion that the lead (and perhaps the rest of the article) would benefit from having more links. I will add some as I go, but someone should make a thorough run-through to find more.
I've added some to the lead and will check through the rest of the article too. Poule (talk) 23:17, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
"range from low to high technology" This phrase does not convey any useful information whatsoever, unless the reader magically already knows the intended meanings of "low technology" and "high technology". Does "low technology" mean pencils or portable computers? Does "high technology" mean speech synthesis software or neural implants? I certainly have no idea. I suggest deleting this phrase; the subsequent clause conveys all of the necessary information.
Done, it's gone. Failedwizard (talk) 23:34, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
"... gestures, hand signals..." I'm curious: what is the difference between a gesture and a hand signal?
Done(ish) Um, I think the original reasoning was that the person making the gesture may not be able to move their hands (noding, nose-pointing, ect), but I quite take the point, I've removed 'hand signals' for now - I'd like to make sure that Poule has no objection< though... there might be an elegant solution....Failedwizard (talk) 22:49, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Signal has a specific meaning different from gesture, but I think it is fine just to delete it.Poule (talk) 23:17, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
"adapted mice" Trained rodents or modified computer hardware? A link would be helpful.
Done, not the rodent :) Failedwizard (talk) 22:43, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
"the selection made depends on the needs and capabilities of the user" and "The method of accessing the communication device depends on the user's skills and abilities" and "An evaluation of a user's abilities and requirements is necessary to match a user with the most appropriate AAC approaches" seem to be redundant. We get the point: some stuff works for some people, other stuff works for other people. Not so difficult a concept that it needs to be iterated thrice.
I've done a fairly major reword on each of these (again I'd like one of my conominators to give a sanity check) but I think it might cover the concern.Failedwizard (talk) 23:25, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
"Studies show that AAC use does not impede the development of speech, and may even result in a modest increase in speech production. Adult AAC users who have used AAC since childhood may have poor literacy and vocational outcomes, but report satisfying relationships, and pleasurable and interesting life activities." This wee snippet of text that is so arrogant as to proclaim itself an entire paragraph seems to be a bit promotional. If you want to include this kind of information in the lead, you have to go all the way and present a solid overview of how society perceives AAC users.
Well it's not a paragraph on its own any more, and I've done some rewording... this might be one for the talk page... :/ Failedwizard (talk) 23:44, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
I can understand why all ya'll are passionate about this topic, but it's important to give a neutral presentation, and this snippet really doesn't do a good job of that. It would be nice to say that the world of AAC is all sunshine and happiness, but the under-representation of AAC users in the workforce is a pretty hefty fly in the ointment. Here's one possible rephrasing that is, in my eyes, a bit more balanced: "Users who have grown up with AAC typically have poor literacy and are unlikely to find employment, though they often report an otherwise satisfactory quality of life." Not perfect, but I'm sure you get the idea. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Oh I think I get you now. How about 'Users who have grown up with AAC report satisfying relationships and life activities; however they may have poor literacy and are unlikely to be in employment.'? Failedwizard (talk) 09:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I like. Subtle changes in phrasing can indeed go a long way towards making a sentence sound more neutral. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"the inclusion and independence of those with disabilities" I'm a bit confused. Inclusion and independence are, in some ways, antonymous. What exactly does "independence" mean in this context? Perhaps "rehabilitation" would be a better choice...? Not really sure here.
I've tried to clarify using some linking and rewording. Inclusion refers to being included and involved in society. Independence refers to being autonomous; not living in hospitals, for example, but in the community in apartments, if possible by themselves. They are actually two sides of the same coin in disability-speak, so it is very helpful to get an outside opinion on these things.Poule (talk) 22:58, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Definitely better, but I still think that "independence" could be misinterpreted. How about "self-reliance" instead? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Changed to self-reliance in the lead, and also reworded a few other places where the meaning of independence is not clear from the text. Failedwizard (talk) 09:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
It's a difficult call- independence is the term used in the reliable sources, and it includes much more than self-reliance; many with disabilities are not able to be "self-reliant" for example, but can be given greater opportunity to live and make decisions more autonomously. Here's one of the sources for example "This new approach emphasized the need for cognitively impaired individuals to learn and develop skills that would lead to increased independence and a lifestyle more closely resembling that of nondisabled peers." I'm going to try and again to address the concerns and remain close to the sources.--Poule (talk) 13:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
Hot damn, I like what I see! "developing the skills required for independence" makes it much clearer what the mystery word means in this context. I'm happy with this if the other noms are. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I also like this. Failedwizard (talk) 06:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"Those benefiting from AAC include individuals with a variety of congenital conditions" A wee bit promotional. I'd prefer to swap out "benefiting from" for "who make use of".
"non-speech systems were their only formal means of communication" What does "formal" mean in this context? I think this sentence would work just fine without this word.
I am somewhat surprised that the second paragraph of Unaided AAC does not mention the fact that signed languages are much more precise and comprehensive than mere gestures alone. I think the inclusion of such a statement would nicely counterbalance the bit about signed languages being non-transparent.
I've added something to the start. Poule (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
"In many cases, rate enhancement techniques such as codes or specific organization of symbols are used to speed up the generation of messages." I have no idea what this sentence means.
I've edited to 'In many cases the process of constructing messages can be slow and so rate enhancement techniques are used to speed up the generation of messages.' which I think is much clearer at the expense of some detail - does that sound a bit better? Failedwizard (talk) 22:55, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, better. The problem now is that the jargon-heavy phrase "rate enhancement technique" is thrown out there without any solid clues as to what it means. My understanding of the new sentence is essentially "creating messages can be slow, so people try to make it faster." This, of course, is just a special case of the axiom "stuff sucks, so people try to make it not suck." As this is a fairly self-evident principle in most fields, I think it may be best to simply delete this sentence. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
It's gone, and it this instance I've replaced it with a fact about speaking rates from the rate enhancement section, how does that look? Failedwizard (talk) 09:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
The problem is that the lead needs to summarize the article, and we have a whole section, with several sub-sections describing the methods that people use to speed up communication. Just saying that people are slow doesn't really do the job properly; I'll try another version that hopefully will address everybody's concerns. Poule (talk) 12:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
You're quite right, Poule. I hadn't noticed the section on rate enhancement techniques. Still, I am completely mystified as to the meaning of "codes" and "specific organization of symbols". The former can mean dozens of different things depending on the context; the latter is a jargon-heavy phrase that is unlikely to convey any meaning to an outsider. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:36, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I see what you mean. I've made some changes to address your concerns.Poule (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
"Prevalence data varies, but typically between 0.1 to 1.5% of the population" Varies how? Could be age, time, location, or economic class. Population of what? Could be the US, English speakers, the world, or adults.
In my experience it varies between study - highly political in certain places - but I'd like to check Poule's take on this, it's likely to be one where we have a difference of opinion. Failedwizard (talk) 06:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Pretty much all of the above, though not economic class, and little done in developing countries. I'll add a bit to clarify, but it is really a morass of multiple studies studying slightly different populations (age, type of disability). I don't think it is really necessary to get into the details since the survey writers conclude "the wide variations found in these studies are probably more due to the definitions and sampling techniques than to actually differences in prevalence rates."Poule (talk) 01:05, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
"On static speech generating devices, symbols are in fixed positions on a paper overlay..." This is the first instance of "static" in the article, and I'm not entirely sure if it is a specific class of high-tech aids, or if it refers to low-tech thingies.
"these include Blissymbols, which possesses linguistic characteristics such as grammatical indicators, and the more iconic Picture Communication Symbols (PCS) which does not." Two things that concern me here. First, the subject-verb disagreement: "Blissymbols" and "Picture Communication Symbols" are plural, but "possesses" and "does not" are singular. Second, this phrasing seems to think that Blissymbols are better than PCS. If the sources indicate that the inclusion of linguistic characteristics is a reason to favor Blissymbols, that should be stated explicitly. If you are instead just trying to make a general comparison, the phrasing could be tweaked to be a bit more neutral.
I've fixed the plural (apologies, should *really* have seen that earlier) - the sentence it's self was quite difficult to get consensus on (it's an amazing percentage of the talk) so I'd like to leave it as alone if you are just mentioning it in passing, but happy to change if you really would like it changed. Failedwizard (talk) 06:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
"including understanding of symbols, memory etc." Eek! I'm not a fan of "etc." First, it is not always clear what the other items in the list would be. Second, there are much nicer ways to phrase this: "including understanding of symbols, memory, and various other thingamabobs" or whatever.
Sentence is now 'The choice of symbols and aspects of their presentation, such as size and background, depends on an individual's preferences as well as their linguistic, visual, and cognitive skills.'
"It was not until the 1980s that AAC began to emerge as an area in its own right." Area of what? Could be research, medicine, etc.
I don't have the history reference I'm afraid - Poule? Failedwizard (talk) 06:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
I've changed it to field. As the article says in the history section, many things came together including more research, professional specialization and accreditation, formation of international and national associations etc. I don't think we need to go into details in the lead. --Poule (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
"an alternative pointer, such as eye gaze, a head stick, head or eye-controlled mouse" Does the last bit mean "head-controlled or eye-controlled mouse"? If so, then there should technically be a hyphen tacked onto "head". Normally I don't really care about this convention, but in this case I think it helps to remove some abiguity.
Done (added dash) Failedwizard (talk) 21:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
"vocabulary items organized in these grid formats by spoken word order, frequency of usage or category." It seems to me like there are one or more words missing from this sentence. Perhaps "vocabulary items [are often] organized in these grid formats by spoken word order, frequency of usage or category."
"Visual scene displays represent a different method of organizing and presenting symbols" Erm, not really. They don't "represent" a different method, they "are" a different method. Unless of course I'm misunderstanding this...?
Done (you understand fine, AAC is full of this sort of linguistic torture) Failedwizard (talk) 21:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
"young or developing children" What does "developing children" refer to? Fetuses? I can't imagine they would have much use for AAC.
Done (the overall usefulness is not in question - but I imagine they would prefer visual scene to grid arrangement) Failedwizard (talk) 21:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
should have been something like individuals with developmental delays; changed to cognitive impairments.--Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"In iconic encoding strategies such Semantic compaction," Should there be an "as" after "such"?
Done (there should) Failedwizard (talk) 21:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I am of the opinion that the first paragraph of Assessment and system implementation should be split up. It is quite massive in size and it touches on a number of different subtopics.
Done, split in three Failedwizard (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
What does the Christy Brown quote have to do with assessment or system implementation? It's certainly a compelling passage, but I don't understand what it's doing in this section.
We had some chat about where to put the quotes, and my understanding is that both are about *starting* to use AAC. If you've got a recommendation for a better place, we're certainly attentive, we're all probably a bit close to the article to know exactly where to put it... Failedwizard (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
This placement makes more sense after a second reading of the quote. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:29, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
"For members of some cultural groups the presence of an AAC device increases the visibility of disability and is thus viewed as stigmatizing." This leaves me wondering: what happens to those people? Do they try to find non-visible AAC devices, or just shun the methods altogether?
It's worth noting here that it may not be the user who views the devices this way, but the families and carers, and this conversation can go to very dark places :( From a wikipedia point of view, I"m not sure we'll be able to find good sources to answer your question, groups that don't like AAC (for any reason) arn't all that friendly to AAC researchers... :( I may well we wrong though...Failedwizard (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm curious: are the methods described in "Prediction" similar to the methods used by search engines (particularly Google)? If ya'll can find a reliable source that says this, I think it would be a helpful addition to this wee little section.
Bit unclear here, do you mean like Google instant? or the autocompletet-type functionality?Failedwizard (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
The autocomplete functionality was what I had in mind, yes. Like when you type in "How many e" and it automagically suggests "How many eggs does a woman have?", to which the answer is obviously 7. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:29, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Aha! I'm going to stray into OR a second here for clarity, hope you don't mind - *in my experience* prediction is much more like you would get on an iphone keyboard... ('it looks like you are typing 'necessary', would you like to complete that'?) than at the phrase level. Phrase level systems certainly exist - I think [Speech_generating_device#cite_note-demp-31] is a version like you've described (as in I think that's what the reference is doing) but that's at the 'interesting research' end rather than the 'this is what everybody does' end. Over a beer we can have a really fun conversation about why the speed of generation affects the grammar used and hence how that affects phrasal prediction, and why there are serious research issues that prevent really good investigation of this on large sets of data and so on. So yeah, the point is, I don't have an handy reference that supports the analogy (one of the other editors might), but the analogy isn't that far off... if it helps - I plan to make (electronic) prediction a big part of [Speech_generating_device] as my next project. Failedwizard (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
"Four social purposes of communicative interaction have been identified: the expression of needs and wants, the transfer of information, social closeness, and social etiquette." I really don't understand this list. Doesn't all communication qualify as the transfer of information? What does "social closeness" mean? I had been under the impression that "social etiquette" referred to a set of guidelines on how to act in certain situations, not a reason to communicate.
So there is transfer of information in the sense of 'There is some post for you', and there is social closeness in the sense of telling a joke - obviously at a very basic level you have to transfer information to tell the joke, but that's not the *purpose* of the communication. Not sure what (sourced) changes can be made here, could you expand a bit more? Failedwizard (talk) 08:01, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Well here's something I would like to know: Is this classification scheme described in just one source or is is accepted throughout the field? In the former case, I don't think it should be included at all, or at least described in such a definitive manner. In the latter case, there must surely exist some more thorough explanation of the different categories somewhere. I realize the category names will probably make sense to someone familiar with the literature, but they are very opaque to an outsider. It just reads as "here are four jargon phrases that you must now memorize: snargits, hargits, blargits, and potato." --Cryptic C62 · Talk 18:29, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
I know of no competing classification, and if it's in B&M or light it's generally accepted by the field (rightly or wrongly) I'd quite enjoy having some examples and I think that would help - I'm bit out of my deaph on when a clarifying example of a principle needs to be sourced and when it doesn't (I'm assuming that examples in maths, for example, don't have to be sourced examples, but do have to be exemplary examples of sourced principles in this example), might turn this over to my learned colleagues... but would you be happy with a set of examples? Failedwizard (talk) 21:12, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it is a very well cited classification system. I agree that examples would help and will add some soon. --Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Does the Speech subsection of Outcomes focus on those individuals who use AAC as a temporary measure and then learn to speak later? Or perhaps those who attempt to learn both simultaneously? Either way, it doesn't answer the burning question: how many AAC users actually do go on to learn how to speak?
Changed to 'Several reviews have found that the using AAC does not impede the development of speech in individuals with autism or developmental disabilities, and in fact may result in modest gains being observed.' The burning question is, as they say, 'an open research question' - problem is that we can't really satisfactorily answer *any* question that starts 'How Many' in the field. It's pretty depressing actually :( Failedwizard (talk) 09:48, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
In Language and literacy, it is not clear if "literacy" refers specifically to the ability to read normal writing or more broadly to the ability to interpret visually encoded information. I assume the first case, but then I don't really understand the purpose of the first two sentences. Do we really need to explain the importance of language and literacy?
Done. "Literacy" used as reading of normal writing, I've rearranged the paragraph - the sentences haven't quite gone, but they've moved and had their meaning changed...I think that's sorted it but let me know Failedwizard (talk) 09:48, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I've restored the original format. The revision made by Failedwizard confused literacy with language; these are two separate things. Literacy is the ability to read and to write: being able to spell opens all possible words in a specific language to an individual, as well as other opportunities. Language refers to vocabulary, syntax, morphology etc. --Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"Most children in this category do not achieve literacy skills beyond a second grade level." Second grade in which education system? Could be US, UK, etc. Surely not every country's education system has the same literacy expectations of their second-graders. Perhaps an age or age range would be more appropriate.
Done. Was US, I've changed the text to be '7-8' and left a comment for future editors (would be an interesting to have a template that automatically converted. Failedwizard (talk) 09:48, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
"Many people with cerebral palsy would not benefit from AAC," Why not? This section is a bit skimpy, and this would be a good opportunity to beef it up a bit.
Changed to 'dysarthria often occurs with Cerebral palsy and may require AAC support for communication.' the meaning was unclear, though I think the new sentance is pretty clunky and could do with a polish. To answer the other part - the thing here is that, for a whole bunch of reasons, the stuff that we would write about users with CP, we've already written in the general case... This is very difficult to phrase but both the industry and the research community are kind of geared up to (and it's not a position I personally find comfortable) assume CP as the 'typical' case...
Well, the other subsections give a bit of explanation about the nature of the condition, so perhaps we could do that here too. It would certainly be helpful to give a bit of background info about dysarthia, as the lay reader is unlikely to be familiar with that term. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 17:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
I've extended with 'a speech disorder resulting from neurological injury of the motor-speech system'. Failedwizard (talk) 08:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree that this should be expanded, and in fact have suggested this in the past. I will try and do so shortly. --Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"Autism is a disorder distinguished by qualitative impairments" What is a "qualitative impairment"? My instinct is to try to contrast this with "quantitative impairment", but I'm not sure what that would mean either, apart from the rare case of missing 3 organs.
Yeah, that's not great is it... I've changed to 'Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behaviour', which is the first sentence of the autism article. Failedwizard (talk) 08:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I think the change is fine, but so was qualitative impairments: for example in autism it is not necessarily the quantity of communication that is impaired, but its quality, its character. It is a common enough phrase in the medical and psychological literature.--Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"Existing functional communication skills, such as joint attention, predict better use of AAC." I'm not really sure what the last part of this means. Is this trying to say that there is a correlation between existing functional communication skills and the effective use of AAC?
Good catch! The sentence doesn't match my reading of the source at all. I've replaced it in it's entirety. Failedwizard (talk) 08:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the replacement. The source actually says that joint attention seem to be a more important factor than visuo spatial skills, and points out a study where joint attention did predict better AAC use. But since both are in an "unanswered questions" section, I think neither of them should be included. --Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"A study that compared the use of a speech generating device to a picture exchange system found that both were plausible options for children with autism" The use of "plausible" here suggests that neither of these systems actually exist yet, or that they are not widely used outside the context of research studies. Is this true?
I've replaced "plausible" with "reasonable" - the confusion I think comes from the issue that it's impossible to say (of any assertive technology, not just AAC) "Technology X will fix problem Y of disability Z", because there are so many other factors that massively influence the result - for example, getting control groups is such a difficult proposition that many researchers test new approaches with fully able subjects just so they have enough people (leads me back into the talk earlier about CP - because CP (and autism) are *relatively* common/consistent - they are easier to draw academic results from... anyway I keep giving answers that are far to long so shall stop. Failedwizard (talk) 08:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
"Difficulties with memory and new learning may influence AAC choices" How is "new learning" different from "learning"?
Done. Changed to 'Difficulties with memory and learning (such as learning to use an AAC system) may influence AAC choices' Failedwizard (talk) 06:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
"Aphasia is the result of an impairment to the brain's language centres ... and can cause severe, chronic language impairment." So aphasia is an impairment that causes an impairment? Ideally I would love to see a version of this that does not repeat the word twice in the same sentence.
Done. Changed to damage. Failedwizard (talk) 06:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
"remnant/memory books" Huh?
Done, remant book should probably have its own link, but we're all busy, so I've gone with memory book. Failedwizard (talk) 06:41, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
"In the early stages, AAC may consist of using an alphabet board to cue the listener to the first letter of the word being spoken, and may [be] used with those less familiar with the individual." Missing word?
"writing-based systems are preferred as they allow unlimited expressive communication." I'm not a fan of "unlimited expressive communication", as this is somewhat ambiguous. What limits are removed when using writing systems? Vocabulary is the first that comes to mind, but there could be others as well.
Done, changed to 'ince cognition and vision are typically unaffected in ALS, writing-based systems are preferred as they allow much less limited forms of expressive communication compared to say icons.' Failedwizard (talk) 15:28, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
"Much less limited" isn't in the source and icons tends to have a specific (Minspeak) meaning in AAC, so best to use another term. If you have access to spelling, then your ability to communicate in a particular language is not limited at all. I've reworked again to address the original issue. --Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"small wallets with photographs" Is the adjective "small" necessary? In other words, are these wallets smaller than normal wallets? I hadn't realized that there was much variance in the size of wallets.
Done. The source (in my reading of it) uses wallet almost interchangably to memory book, and the sentence made a little less sense after reading thought the source so have reworded Failedwizard (talk) 11:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
"In addition, training designed to teach individuals with dementia to use such memory aids was maintained four months after intervention." The training was maintained for four months? Or the memory aids remained effective after four months?
Done. I thought the sentance broke up the paragraph unpleasently anyway and didn't add much so I've droped it. Failedwizard (talk) 11:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I going to restore it with a modification to addres the issue, as I agree the sentence was very unclear. In a treatment study, whether there is maintenance/carryover of a treatment effect is a key finding. Most especially in a progressive memory disease where one would be very concerned that there could be a return to baseline when intervention ceases.--Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"AAC can trace its roots" No it can't. Only personified trees can do this. In general, metaphors such as this should be avoided, as their meaning may not be clear to non-native speakers of English.
Thanks. I agree that the sentence needed modifying, and have done so; however, I'd say "tracing roots" is a fairly common phrase, one we shouldn't have to avoid: we are not simple wikipedia after all- and I notice that even simple wikipedia uses the phrase![7]--Poule (talk) 19:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"The modern era began in the 1950s in Europe and North America, spurred by societal factors such as an increased awareness of individuals with communication and other disabilities, and a developing commitment, often backed by legislation and funding, to develop their education, independence and rights." Lots of problems here. Overall, this is a rather unwieldy sentence in terms of length and number of ideas introduced. Does "modern era" refer to AAC or society in general? A developing commitment to develop...? A commitment by whom? Funding from whom? I think this could be presented a lot more clearly by splitting it up into a few sentences and filling in more of the details.
I've clarified the modern era (of AAC), that these are examples of the societal/govermental changes/commitments, divided the sentence and changing developing to growing. --Poule (talk) 19:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
"Since Parkinson's disease is associated with reduced range and speed of movement, a small-sized board may be preferred." How small is small? Are we talking pocket-sized or clipboard-sized?
Done. The reference goes with 'Smaller', I've reworded to 'In users that have reduced range and speed of movement, a smaller than usual selection display may be preferred.' to both cover your comment and because the orginal statement was futher from the source than I would like... Failedwizard (talk) 11:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Ehh, this doesn't really fix the problem so much as put it somewhere else. The question now is: How large is a normal-sized board? The image I have in my head is that a normal board would be roughly a 3 foot by a 4 foot rectangle; a "smaller than usual" board would be the size of a clipboard. Of course, I have no idea if these are actually correct. --Cryptic C62 · Talk
Not covered in that particular reference (that I can see, right at this moment), but I'm happy to go digging - on the other hand I'd be happier if the sentence wasn't there at all (I think it's un:due weight to a particular symptom and a particular way of dealing with that symptom), would you be okay with dropping it? Failedwizard (talk) 07:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
That's up to you guys, particularly since you're much more familiar with the literature than I am. I certainly would not be opposed to its removal, as it doesn't seem to be an enormously crucial fact. Poule? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to keep it. After all, we are talking about the difference in AAC between the different disorders, and the fact is that a feature of PD is that those with it have a reduced range of motion and smaller is often a desirable feature of their communication devices/boards (sometimes a bit unexpectedly given the tremor.) I don't see an argument for undue weight. BTW, it would be most, most unusual to have a display of 3-4 feet. Maximum I've ever seen is about 2 by 2 feet, but normally we are talking about about letter size. Smaller, for PD clients, might be half that, or less. But this is all my personal experience, and no use. I think what Failedwizard changed it to is fine.[User:Poule|Poule]] (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
"Factors affecting AAC use in Parkinson's disease include motor deficits and cognitive changes, including lack of insight into the extent of their communication difficulties" Does "lack of insight" refer to a deficit in our collective body of knowledge, or each user's own inability to assess their communication difficulties?
Done. The relevent line in the source is [8] 'although individuals with PD themselves may be unaware of problems with spoken communication.' - I've changed to 'significantly the users may be unaware of their problems with spoken communication.' Failedwizard (talk) 11:36, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
It's not clear to me how this clause relates to the previous one. My proposed change is "unlike most AAC users, those afflicted with Parkinson's disease are often unaware of their problems with spoken communication." Is this accurate? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
'unlike most AAC users' is *probably* true, but it's not as straightforward as you might think - I'd be utterly fine with the second part if you are. Failedwizard (talk) 07:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
Yep, works for me. Changed accordingly. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
I'm gonna change the "afflicted" part. Not very PC in from a disability perspective. Otherwise I'm okay with it. --Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
On second thoughts, I've made more changes. The lack of insight is a specific example of the cognitive changes, one that can directly affect AAC use, so the two sentences need to be connected. --Poule (talk) 02:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
"The approach was typically only employed after traditional speech therapy had failed" Which approach?
AAC- the subject of the previous sentence, and the section and article. Stylistic, I would rather avoid repeating AAC over and over again. --Poule (talk) 19:58, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Ah. I thought it was something more specific. I've changed "The approach" to "it". Eh? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 21:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Looks good.--Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
"a few, such as the HandiVoice, had voice output." Artificial or recorded voice output?
It was synthesized speech with the Handivoice, but since other devices are involved I think the general term is best. --Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
"in 1981, the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association published a position paper regarding AAC as a field of practice for speech-language pathologists." Erm, what exactly is the purpose of this sentence? If "regarding" were replaced with "advocating", I would see why this would be an important trivium, but as it stands the purpose is not clear to me.
I think the point is that a professional organization determined that it was part of their professional role, and thus lent respectability and importance to the topic. Think of it as in "In 2014, the American Association of Doctors published a position paper on homeopathy as a field of practice for doctors." It is actually more than "advocating"; it is a defacto acceptance that using homeopathy is part of a doctor's job/role. I've reworked things a bit, based on your comments --Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
"sign language increased in status and use" What does "status" mean here? My first instinct would be "popularity", but that would be redundant with the rest of the sentence.
Status really is the right word: I exagerrate somewhat, but sign language went from being something only "failures" of the oral method used to being recognized as an actual language and the object of deaf pride. Oliver Sachs' book Seeing Voices is a a very fascinating account of some of the history of this, if you are interested. --Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
The explanation is interesting, but I don't think that many readers would correctly infer this rather literal meaning of "status". How about replacing "status and use" with "popularity and acceptance"? I feel that that gives essentially the same meaning as what you are describing.
I replacd the word 'status' with 'acceptance' Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"The development of the Amer-Ind hand signals opened the field to AAC techniques specifically for an adult clientele." The use of "clientele" sugests that AAC is a product or service. I guess in some ways it could be considered as such, but this is the first instance of any phrasing that suggests this; as such, it seems out of place. Perhaps "an adult clientele" -> "adult users" would be better?
I don't mind changing it, but I also think clientele is fine too; it is the term used in the source as well. Much has changed since people with disabibilities were called patients, and people who work in AAC are in fact often called service providers. But whatever.--Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
I have no problem with the word itself, it just seems odd that this is the only spot in the article (that I can remember) in which AAC users are described this way. A house divided against itself, and all that, eh? --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Done. Changed to users. Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"From the 1980s, improvements in technology led to a greatly increased number, range, and performance of commercially available communication devices," Not sure what "range" means here. Perhaps "variety" or "market penetration"?
Done. Changed to 'variety'. Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"The first commercially available dynamic screen speech generating devices were developed in the 1990s and synthesized speech in more languages became available." This sentence presents two seemingly unrelated ideas: commercially available dynamic screen devices, and availability of more languages.
Done, reworded into two seperate sentences.Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
If these are somehow related, perhaps it would be worthwhile to explain what the heck a dynamic screen speech generating device is.
Funny you should say that... changed Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
"communication devices can be accessed using eye-tracking systems, can perform as a computer for word-processing and internet use and as an environmental control device for independent access of TV, radio, telephone etc" Err, I don't really know what to say about this sentence. It looks like someone thought to themselves "I'll just throw all the relevant words in there and hope that grammar happens."
Done. Rewritten into a couple of sentances, Failedwizard (talk) 17:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
No es problema, soy un "baller"
"However, high-tech devices typically require programming, and as they are prone to be unreliable" Err... what? Why are they unreliable? This could be interpreted so many different ways that it's not even worth trying to list them all.
replaced with 'and a low-tech system is often recommended as a backup in case of mechanical failure.' Failedwizard (talk) 06:50, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
This part is clearer, but now I don't understand how mechanical failures relate to the necessity of programming. It seems to me that the two clauses are unrelated, but just happened to be squooshed into the same sentence. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:48, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
De squooshed, and I've removed the programming part as self-explanatory. Failedwizard (talk) 11:03, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
The point was to counterbalance the advantages and disadvantages of low and high tech systems, for which the programming part is a factor. I'm going to have another go at this. --Poule (talk) 12:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
There's a possibility of a hostage to fortune here Poule... I think there are a number of much more important factors - it's amazing how many VOCA users haven't touched the vocab *at all*. Also calling it programming is a bit of a stretch... (admittedly at least one device has an unexpectedly complete scripting engine, but it's not programming as programmers would understand it) Failedwizard (talk) 21:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
With all due respect, we have to go with what the reliable sources say, not our own experience. When talking about the disadvantages of high tech systems, DeCoste specifically mentions the "time to program". --Poule (talk) 02:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't put that entirely clearly, I'm not disputing the source, I'm just noting the meaning of 'program' in a book that DeCoste writes for AAC professionals, may be slightly different to the meaning that, well, programmers take it to mean. We don't have a massive difference of opinion here, I was quite happy with 'program' originally - but if DeCoste is using it in the sense of, say, adding vocabulary to the device, it might be clearer to say so. But I'll leave it entirely up to you Failedwizard (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I take your point that programming has a different meaning to computer programmers; but we program our VCRS, DVDs, stoves and telephones. None of that involves complicated codes or scripting or whatever. Program is the word used over and over again in the AAC literature, as well as the source, so I think we should just leave it as is. --Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
That's it!. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:48, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
BTW, thanks for all your work on all of this--Poule (talk) 02:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Fabulous - I'll just pop to the office to fetch the relevent sources... in the meantime, can I just check that these edits [9] didn't affect the issues that you highlighted and then closed? I'm sure you'll probably and seen and approve but wanted to make double sure in case... (and I've also got a thing for making the talk page clear for lurkers) Failedwizard (talk) 16:18, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I made various explanations in the edit summaries, but as requested have expanded on them above. Poule (talk) 18:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
If/when ya'll have another go at FAC, ping me and I'd be happy to lend my support.
-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more.
Latest comment: 12 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion
So exactly two months ago our FA nomination was closed for lack of support. Since then we've had Cryptic finnish their review with a mood to support [10] and come though a peer review with good feeling[11]. Does anyone object to going back in? I'm happy to take on the nomination and the lion's share of the corrections, I'm aware that various other commitments are taking hold of other editors... Failedwizard (talk)
I think we need to fix up various things first. For example:
I said I was going to do various things to respond to the 2 peer reviews: e.g briefly expand CP, add brief explanations for Light's Purposes, check re the "some" comments for multicultural groups and other issues, and look into the multi-handicapped literature. I should be able to get to this in the next day or two.
We should also do the alt text: I seem to remember you said you would have a go at this, Failedwizard.
Once we have done this, I would think we should be good to go. --Poule (talk) 23:19, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi Poule... okay, so we wait a little longer, I must be having a really confused day - I've got no memory of claiming alt text (I think it's a great idea, I've just got no experience of doing it) and I'm not entirely sure about the second point - I don't remember CP being mentioned at all - is there a conversation happening somewhere else I've missed? Failedwizard (talk) 07:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi. I took this as an indication that you would a go at the alt-text. Here is where Cryptic says that the CP section is a bit skimpy.[12]. You added a definition, I believe, which was a good start, and I said I would do a bit more. --Poule (talk) 13:34, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
Lol, looks like we've both made general assumptions here - I asked a shall-I-do-it? question a couple of months back that you (I think, from the edit above) took as a I'll-do-it. and I thought we'd addressed all cryptic's comments - we live and learn... :) Failedwizard (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm just checking in to apologize for my failure to complete my part of this. I've been having some very time consuming real life issues which needed my full attention. I won't be able to get back to this for one more week, after which I promise to do all the bits and bobs I have in mind, and then I think we will be good to go. Poule (talk) 17:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Animation
Latest comment: 12 years ago12 comments2 people in discussion
So there's been a request for animations here and and here as a test and a starting point I made a very rough animatation of the scanning diagram on Switch Access Scanning. If we can use this section to specify exactly what we're looking for in terms of an animation for this page, that would be great. Failedwizard (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
It's hard to describe, of course, so I've found a video on youtube that shows the sort of thing I was thinking about.. starts about 1:20 in. I find cross-scanning (as in the little animation above) confusing, so I'd suggest using highlighting of the border/buttons as in the youtube video. I don't know if we even need anything on the buttons if the point is to show the patterns, but maybe the alphabet would be good to show functionality. I wouldn't bother with a message window, because we can't easily show selection. Perhaps the name of the scanning pattern could be displayed at the top or bottom as each one circles through a couple of times.--Poule (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm not quite following here... is there a particular piece of software you want to see in action? Failedwizard (talk) 08:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
No, not really. I was thinking of a generic example of scanning using an outline and/or highlighting scanning indications (rather than cross scanning), using an alphabet board type display. --Poule (talk) 01:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Okay, let's come back to this, I think it's worth doing - certainly if you've got a set of pictures you can email me, then I can animate them in a matter of minutes (which is what happened to the above animation). I can also draw something out in photoshop but I could really do with knowing exactly what I'm drawing to avoid unnecessary back and forth (and we have the problem of avoiding none-free content) are we just thinking about a sesame street style alphabet and a cursor? Failedwizard (talk) 19:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, I think it would be great. I'm not thinking of a particular device, just a generic display. I've created a couple of images showing 6 pages steps in the sort in an animation I think would be good for row column scanning. One is for the row and the other is for the column. They are very rough, though, as I am very pressed for time to say. Hopefully they give you an idea of what I was thinking of, but you may have a better idea. Here they are --Poule (talk) 18:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I'll get on it - might take a couple of days, pretty busy at this end to. :) Failedwizard (talk) 08:27, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Alpha-version, any and all comments welcome (I've streamlined my process somewhat at this end so it's now a lot faster for me to create/modify animations).Failedwizard (talk) 09:54, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, just checking in briefly to say that I think that it looks terrific! Just what I was imagining in my heard. I really like the "message window" and showing the building up of the word. I do have a couple of suggestions: first, how about indicating "selection" by turning the background of letter button red or some other colour? second, maybe for the demo, it would be best to avoid using letters in the first column (like T) because the row column is not so clear there.
Would it be easy to make similar ones showing linear and circular scanning? Those would be great too. --Poule (talk) 14:20, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed that the selection is marked by a change from orange to red highlighting. On my computer at least, the colour change is very, perhaps too, subtle. Maybe you could make the colours more different, or I still wonder if colouring in the whole button might indicate selection (as opposed to scanning) more clearly? Poule (talk) 14:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
Changed the red to green (the above image is now updated) have also produced linear (below) - if you can give me a base image for circular I'll knock a draft of that up. I'd like to leave the first column issue open for a bit - just because if we are showing three different methods than I think it might help to illustrate the differences... but yeah, I'll be back in a couple of days to pick up any feedback and do another version...
They look very good to me. Congratulations. I think that now that the "selection" is clearer, the first column thing doesn't matter so much. Maybe slow down the scan a bit? It's obvious for those in the know, but might be easier if it is slower for others. I'll try and mock up a circular scan tomorrow. --Poule (talk) 21:51, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is a very rough demo of something that might do for the circular scan
Not had a chance to get to the circular scanning yet - been distracted by a GA - but I did reload the deleted image and pop both test images into the Switch_access_scanning article for the time being...
So I struggled slightly with this one - not sure if I should be showing selection of things or just the movement of the 'cursor' - any and all feedback welcome - once we've happy with the images we should probably start working out where to put them...
Moving of disambiguation page
Latest comment: 12 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
If/when ya'll have another go at FAC, ping me and I'd be happy to lend my support.
-- Cryptic C62 · Talk 23:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
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