Talk:Attempted assassination of Cristina Fernández de Kirchner

WP:TOOSOON?

Considering the fact that this just happened within what appears the last hour, isn't this article a bit premature? FrederalBacon (talk) 02:52, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

When the article was first created, for sure, but now a few international RS (BBC News, AP News, Reuters) have stories on it, so the article is now probably good enough to pass any TOOSOON worries. Elijahandskip (talk) 04:05, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, at this point, it clearly meets. And this appears to be a very serious attempt as well, so it's going to be even more notable. From the picutres it looks like the only reason she survived is that the gun didn't fire. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:07, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Lede

This is a confusing lede sentence. It makes it seem like there are two people. I understand she is former pres, but she is current VP, her political history can be addressed later in the article, but that sentence is confusing. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:47, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Added background section and started it with brief info, I'll leave it to people who know much more about her to flesh out that part. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:56, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Manifestation?

For the photo caption, I'm guessing the closer English translation of that word would be Protest, correct? It looks like a protest. FrederalBacon (talk) 16:16, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

"Manifestation" is a false friend. It is the word in English that sounds most similar to "Manifestación", but that Spanish word means a demonstration instead. A demonstration may be a protest, but only if it is done to protest about something. Demonstrations may also be in support of someone or something, as in this case. Cambalachero (talk) 18:02, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I wound up figuring out Demonstration was the closest translation of the word, and changed it. It also appears to have several translations, depending on context, making it even more confusing. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:05, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Hey Cambalachero, quick other question. The suspect is described as a Brazilian "Nationalist" in the article, but most sources I have found refer to him as a "National". Is there any indication he is a nationalist, or is he just from the country of Brazil, and thus, a National? Seems like it might be another translation issue. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Just from Brazil. Some Facebook posts he made may suggest him to be an Argentine nationalist, rather than a Brazilian one (he asked to remove from the country the immigrants that do not work and/or sell drugs). Cambalachero (talk) 03:15, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

A Brazilian-born, Argentine nationalist, with Nazi tattoos? Wow. I've been trying to keep an eye on Spanish language sources, but translations are obviously rough, has there been anything released about motive that could be add to the article yet? FrederalBacon (talk) 03:22, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Not as far as I know. But have in mind that there is a judicial case about this and everything about this man is under investigation. Some things may be released to the press (such as his social network activities and the couple of times he appeared on TV, as they were public knowledge to begin with anyway), but others may remain classified for now. Cambalachero (talk) 15:12, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Lede CE/Rewrite?

Current: On 1 September 2022, an attempted assassination occurred against Argentine vice president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner by a man outside her official residence in the neighborhood of Recoleta, Buenos Aires. As the man attempted to shoot her with a Bersa Thunder 32 semi-automatic pistol, the gun failed and no shots were fired. The man was arrested at the scene

The attack took place as Fernández de Kirchner was greeted by her supporters in a small gathering outside her official residence. The local police said the suspect Fernando André Sabag Montiel (age 35) is a Brazilian-born man who has lived in Argentina since 1993.

Proposed: On 1 September 2022, Argentine vice president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner was the target of an assassination attempt. A man approached her outside of her official residence in Buenos Aires, during a gathering of her supporters, and attempted to fire a semi-automatic pistol in her face at point blank range. The pistol failed to fire, and the suspect was immediately arrested on scene.

The Suspect, a 35 year old Brazilian national who has lived in Argentina since 1993, is in police custody, pending prosecution, and the investigation is ongoing.

Little bit of copy edit, little bit of clean up, also, removing the name of the suspect from the lede. There is a big notice in the infobox to not add the name until the charges are laid, I would imagine we should keep the same standard for the article body, right?

Any opinions on this lede rewrite? FrederalBacon (talk) 03:51, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@FrederalBacon It seems the suspect's name is also listed in Abe's assassination article lead and that it is okay to list him as a suspect in accordance to sources. They decided to not to list him as a perpetrator in the infobox and that seems right too.

Lead rewrite seems okay, lowercase 's' in suspect and inclusion of the name would be the only changes I am proposing to your rewrite. Seloloving (talk) 04:05, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Then I'll add the name back in, that's fine if there's a precedent already, just didn't know if there should be a wait on both.

On 1 September 2022, Argentine vice president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner was the target of an assassination attempt. A man approached her outside of her official residence in Buenos Aires, during a gathering of her supporters, and attempted to fire a semi-automatic pistol in her face at point blank range. The pistol failed to fire, and the suspect was immediately arrested on scene.

The suspect has been identified as Fernando André Sabag Montiel, a 35 year old Brazilian national who has lived in Argentina since 1993. He is in police custody, pending charges, while the investigation continues. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:09, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@FrederalBacon Looks okay to me. Seloloving (talk) 04:13, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'll leave it for a bit, get it sourced, if there's no objection by the morning here, I'll put it up. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Weapon used confusion

First time adding to a talk page, apologize if I'm doing it wrong.

The section "The Bersa Thunder 32 semi-automatic pistol used in the attack was later recovered close to the scene. It was fully loaded with five bullets and showed signs of having been triggered twice, though it failed to fire both times, and no rounds were found in the chamber. Its serial number was partially stripped but the weapon was otherwise deemed "fit for firing" by official sources.[22]" has a couple of issues: 1) It claims that the pistol "showed signs of having been triggered twice" but this is not actually possible to do with an autoloading pistol. 2) More importantly, the source cited (https://www.lanacion.com.ar/politica/el-ataque-a-la-vicepresidenta-el-arma-que-utilizo-el-agresor-seria-una-bersa-380-y-tenia-el-cargador-nid01092022/) does not say this - I'm not sure how the information was obtained.

Also, there is a discrepancy in the official account of the attack, according to the La Nacion article cited and all other sources I've been able to find (Spanish and English). The photograph identified as the weapon found after the attack is a Bersa Model 64 single-action pistol in .22 caliber; all the articles are calling it a Bersa Thunder in .32 caliber. I don't know what's going on - confusion in identification, confusion in communication from official sources to journalists, some other issue - but there is some error. Haukehaien (talk) 18:38, 3 September 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haukehaien (talk • contribs) 16:12, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I was the one that added the section. My Google Translate of part of the article says "is a real pistol, which was triggered by the aggressor twice but the projectile did not come out, official sources said." That was how I derived the "been triggered twice" bit. Am I misinterpreting something? Please do advise, thanks. Seloloving (talk) 19:53, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks. The confusion is that the phrase "showed signs of having been triggered twice" makes it sound as though examining the pistol can tell you whether someone unsuccessfully attempted to fire it. That is not possible with this type of firearm. What the police are saying is that the suspect attempted to fire twice (information which they obtained either from eyewitnesses or by watching one of the video recordings of the event), not that the pistol itself can reveal whether someone pulled the trigger.

I would suggest rewriting: "The Bersa Thunder 32 semi-automatic pistol used in the attack was later recovered close to the scene. It was fully loaded with five cartridges although no round was found in the chamber of the weapon. It was reported that the assailant attempted to fire the gun twice", failing both times. Its serial number was partially removed but the weapon was otherwise deemed "fit for firing" by official sources.[22] Haukehaien (talk) 21:22, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I have inserted your recommended copyedit of the paragraph. It's greatly appreciated - thanks for catching my error and misinterpretation of the source. Seloloving (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

"In the News" template

As there was a recent adding, removal and revert, let's clarify a thing: any news be freely added to the date section of Portal:Current events, as long as it follows the rules and format. {{ITN note}}, however, is only for entries from {{In the news}}. Those are discussed at Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates, the article is currently proposed there, but it has not been approved yet (and with so many supports and opposes it is unlikely it will, only the ones with a clear consensus pass) Cambalachero (talk) 17:42, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I realized and reverted, it's confusing considering the link to that portal is right above the proposal. Frederal Say Hi 17:44, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Lede sentence

I see the lede was just changed to put the target first in the sentence; When I wrote that part the way it was, it was in line with many other attempted assassinations (see below) that all start with the date and what happened. I would advocate for changing it back, to keep it in line with the other articles regarding attempted assassination.

Ronald Reagan JPII Mustafl Al-Kadhimi Teddy Roosevelt Gerald Ford Gerald Ford again all start with the date. FrederalBacon (talk) 20:57, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

@7szz: pinging you specifically, since you changed it. I don't really care either way, but there is precedent to have it worded the other way. FrederalBacon (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Copyedit tag

If there is anyone watching this article that is fluently bilingual in Spanish and English, especially the nuances of English grammatical differences, it could use a copyedit, as well as someone who can go through the sources and make sure the translations are accurate. There have been a few issues that have been corrected above, however, this article is pretty close to as complete as it can be at this point in the investigation, just want to make sure what is in right now is all good to go. FrederalBacon (talk) 05:59, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

See Also

Seems weird to have to discuss this, but... which is exactly the reason why List of people who survived assassination attempts would be a better see also article than List of heads of state and government who survived assassination attempts? Cambalachero (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Javier Milei's criticism translation: "magnicide" → "assassination"?

The current version says Milei criticized calling her attempted killing a "magnicide." Isn't "assassination" a better, more typical, translation of the Spanish word he used magnicidio? Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 01:43, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

But that's exactly the issue at hand, that the government called it a "magnicide" (the assassination of a major political figure), and he refuses to use that obscure word, on the grounds that we're all equal before the law and the attempted assassination of a former president should not be treated differently from any other attempted assassination. Change the word from his direct quotation, and it simply does not make any sense. It would sound as if he was claiming that the attempted assassination was all an acting, when he actually refused to even engage in that particular discussion. Cambalachero (talk) 19:35, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

That's just it: the English word "magnicide" is obscure, but the Spanish word magnicidio is not. That's just the normal word for assassination. Milei's point is actually far stronger than you're suggesting: his is that it deserves no more special consideration than any (attempted) murder, since politicians are just normal people and not a higher caste than everyone else. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 00:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)