Talk:Atlantic hurricane/Archive 1

Archive 1

Article Creation

The article is currently in a stage of creation and, obviously, has not yet been completed. --AySz88^-^ 04:07, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's what I'd planned to do with the month sections under "Climatology"

• Typical activity
  • General characterization of activity level and why
  • Numbers about activity level - threshold dates and average storms per month
• Typical storm histories
  • Climatologically typical formation and why
  • Climatologically typical track and why
• Extremes (short):
  • Strongest hurricane in month
  • Year(s) of most systems in month

Much of the climatology section is placeholder-like, pending re-write to fit sources to be found later. The formation/track just puts graphics found at http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastprofile.shtml into words, but I think a textual source would be needed to actually cite.

It'd be a lot better if the article ended up focusing more on the "why" than the current bunch of numbers and some typical tracks, but I couldn't find any sources!

--AySz88^-^ 04:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Duely note that when you name it 'Atlantic hurricane' you are excluding storms with winds of 73 mph or less. -- Hurricane Eric - my dropsonde - archive 07:43, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Apparently, there was some sort of consensus about naming these types of articles "Atlantic hurricane" instead of what I'd originally placed this article at, "North Atlantic tropical cyclone". --AySz88^-^ 15:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it should be renamed Atlantic tropical cyclone personally. -- §Hurricane ERIC§ archive -- my dropsonde 22:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Tables

The tables obscure most of the extremes section. Unless a remedy can be found, I vote to remove them. -- §Hurricane ERIC§ archive -- my dropsonde 22:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Does that work? --AySz88^-^ 22:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable storms

Most of the "extremes" section shoudl be dropped and moved into List of notable Atlantic hurricanes. Jdorje 23:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Bah, I took all the information in the "Extremes" section from that page, so if you still feel it should be dropped (pretending that everything else on the page has already been fleshed out, so it's not as disproportionate), you might as well delete the section.... I basically made it a summary of the List. --AySz88^-^ 03:48, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

External Link needs replacement

following produces 404 error, but would be public good to be replaced by a good link:

• Tropical Cyclone Forecasters' Reference Guide

anyone know a good replacement please? jeffs 02:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest using internet archives, like google's. — jdorje (talk) 02:29, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

It's no longer a 404. :) --AySz88^-^ 05:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Circular referencing

Please do not use http://html.wral.com/sh/blogger/2006/05/gearing-up-for-hurricane-season.html as a reference! I am going to remove cites to that blog entry, because that entry uses this article as its reference. It makes no sense to cite something that loops back to cite this article. —AySz88\^-^ 06:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Tracks image

Atlantic hurricanes

I've made the track map for the Atlantic hurricanes look at the thumb.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice image! --Loqi T. 04:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Terminology

Lots of articles refer to the "subtropical ridge" which is explained nowhere. It should have a section here. Also, there should be a section on Cape Verde-type hurricane (obviously only a summary of that article). What other common terms should be covered? — jdorje (talk) 02:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

This was resolved a couple months ago. =) Thegreatdr 08:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The long and lonely path to inline references

• I don't know if it's enough to remove the box, but references were found for areas where cite was inserted into the text. Thegreatdr 16:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

• Expanded the look of the references and shrank their size, per many of the other TC-related pages. Thegreatdr 01:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Adding more references, and removed citation box. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Is the focus of this page all tropical cyclones, named tropical cyclones, or hurricanes?

Certain sections of the page focus more on tropical cyclones (track and out of season sections) than hurricanes specifically. I doubt this article will pass GA without this problem being resolved. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it really should be all Atlantic tropical cyclones. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Changes have been made to the name of the article, as well as the lead, to show this article concerns Atlantic tropical cyclones of tropical storm strength or greater. Thegreatdr (talk) 14:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Atlantic tropical cyclone/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Prelimenary

Hello! I am just about to begin a review of this page for Good Article status. Any questions can be posted on my talk page, if you need me - Weebiloobil (talk) 08:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Review

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

The article is in good shape; only the odd slip-up.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   Very well done - only the odd typo in the lead, which I fixed myself

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   My only complaint is reference 3 - it leads to a collection of images and groups, not specifying the job of the United States National Hurricane Centre

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   Although there was an excessive amount of edits in the 10 June

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   To improve the article, the actual name of the pics can be sorted out, but this is not a reason for failure

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Congratulations - a very good article

If you wish to begin assessing articles yourself, feel free to head over to WP:GAN

Storm activity graph

The image at the top of the article of a red and blue bar graph doesn't indicate the meaning of the colors. --Loqi T. 04:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi. If you mean the tracks map in the above section, blue is TD, light blue is TS, yellow is cat 1, golden yellow is cat 2, yellow-orange is cat 3, orange is cat 4, and red is cat 5. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 19:15, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Atlantic tropical cyclones since 1851 graph

Hi. Um, the "since 1851", although it represents a longer time period, might not nessecarily be very accurate. The reason is that in the 1800s and early-to-mid-1900s, many storms could have gone unreported due to less technology being used. Should we change it, or is it fine, and should the rest of the article follow the graph's info, or should we use separate data for the rest of the article? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 19:18, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's fine. We've placed in the text about the better detection methods leading to a greater tropical cyclone count since the 1950s. Even on that graph, there are lines depicting when milestones in tropical cyclone detection were passed. Thegreatdr (talk) 23:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi. So should we use the same information provided in the table for the rest of the article regarding the average number of storms per month, or use different information from another source, for example because the number of storms in September was changed from 3.6 to 3 and in June from 3/5 to 1/2? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 23:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

ACE bar graph end date

The graphic of ACE labled as 1950-2004 actually shows 1950-2005. That should be changed in the description and file name. Or better yet, if someone has the time, the graphic could be updated through 2008. 216.80.110.88 (talk) 05:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, the same graphic shows a predicted ACE for 2006. This prediction was way off, and of course, it's history now.216.80.110.88 (talk) 05:23, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In other words: we need a new graph. But let's wait with that till the current hurricane season is over. ––bender235 (talk) 16:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Abel in May?

"The strongest storm outside the hurricane season was Hurricane Able in 1952. This storm attained Category 3 status on May 21, the earliest date a storm has reached major hurricane status on record.[25]" That passage links to a storm that formed on August 18. Huh? Either this page or that page is wrong. -Winter123 (talk) 03:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Fixed- It was Hurricane Able (1951) --Yueof theNorth 17:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Bad move

Why was this moved? This article is about all Atlantic tropical cyclones, not just hurricanes. Hurricanes are an especially intense form of cyclones, but the article discusses all forms of tropical storms. I consider this undiscussed move improper. Dragons flight (talk) 00:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? Atlantic tropical cyclones could also include South Atlantic tropical cyclones, which we don't want in this article. Atlantic hurricane is specific to a certain type of tropical cyclone in the North Atlantic, and the fact it includes tropical storms is mentioned in the first five words. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Essentially the whole article built around "tropical storms and hurricanes", the change of title suggests that it is limited to hurricanes, which is clearly misleading. I can understand the desire to go North, so to speak, but I think trying to call this article just "Atlantic hurricane" actually makes it more confusing about what the article is about. Dragons flight (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

"North Atlantic tropical cyclones" would be more accurate without being limiting, if you really feel the need to emphasize North. Dragons flight (talk) 01:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec)It's not that misleading to have it at Atlantic hurricane. Most people conflate the terms "tropical storms and hurricanes", and, as I said before, we clarify in the first five words that it includes tropical storms. And as for clarifying the basin, it would not be in the same format as the other basins. We're looking for the most accessible title, after all. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Accessiblity is a good goal, but accuracy is more important. We can redirect Atlantic hurricane to North Atlantic tropical cyclone (or similar) and hence keep it perfectly accessible without sacrificing correctness. Dragons flight (talk) 01:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I initially campaigned on IRC for something like "North Atlantic tropical cyclone", but that wouldn't match Pacific hurricane, Pacific typhoon, etc. We have South Atlantic tropical cyclone and Mediterranean tropical cyclone because these are exceedingly rare. Would you suggest we move Pacific hurricane to Northeast Pacific tropical cyclone? --Golbez (talk) 01:09, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but Pacific hurricane actually has larger problems. At present it's intro implies that all cyclones in the northeast Pacific are "hurricanes". And I see Pacific typhoon has basically the same problem. I'd hesitate to assume that choice of names necessarily led to inaccurate articles, but right now neither correctly distinguishes between cyclones in general and the more intense storms called "hurricanes" / "typhoons" in particular. I don't want to encourage that error to crop up here too. Dragons flight (talk) 01:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

To make things even easier and "happily ever after" perfect, I added "or tropical storm" to each of those two basins. There is no need to change these titles. I cannot imagine anyone looking for any of the current storms to look for something other than "Atlantic hurricane", "Atlantic tropical cyclone", or even "Atlantic tropical storm", when searching for this article. Would the laymen public really object to having a simple two word title like this? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The confusion is actually fairly pervasive in those articles, and adding just "or tropical storm" at the front doesn't really resolve the issues presented by those two articles. Dragons flight (talk) 01:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If you want to cater to laymen (which isn't unreasonable) then "Atlantic hurricanes and tropical storms" would be a more accurate, layman friendly title. Redirects can cover the things people might happen to search for, but I continue to believe the specific title ought to accurately describe the content. Dragons flight (talk) 01:43, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for that! That's like wanting the National Hurricane Center to rename themselves as the National Tropical Cyclone Center. We have an Atlantic hurricane season, not Atlantic tropical cyclone season (per here). Hell, a simple Google search yields more hits for "Atlantic hurricane" than "Atlantic tropical cyclone". There's no need to change the title. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:51, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Just because an inaccurate name might be understood correctly in some cases is no reason to prefer it in general. What would the harm be in adding "and tropical storms" to the page name, for example? Dragons flight (talk) 02:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Because that would make the article unnecessarily long, clumsey, and awkward. First of all, it's just common sense that most people refer to tropical cyclones as "hurricanes" in daily life, so people are more likely to search for "Atlantic hurricane" than "Atlantic tropical cyclone". So your layman claim is false, as a newbie to tropical cyclones will barely have a clue in the world what a "tropical cyclone is", but will have most likely heard something about hurricanes on the news that day. With that said, Federal Government Angency National Hurricane Center uses "hurricane" as an all-inclusive term. Simiarly, you don't see "2008 Atlantic tropical cyclone season". I could go on. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 02:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

How we title the article should have no impact at all on its searchability. I don't see the point of that comment? Dragons flight (talk) 03:03, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I had to change the name of this article to Atlantic tropical cyclone during GA, and supported that idea. However, I can see the problems with that now...because it really is North Atlantic based. Atlantic hurricane isn't proper, unless the content becomes restricted to hurricanes. I'm not willing to make those changes, nor do I especially accept the fact that all tropical cyclones are called hurricanes on a generalized basis. When scientists talk about hurricanes, even to the media, they really do mean hurricanes. I don't mind the title being changed to North Atlantic tropical cyclones, which is a more correct fit to its content. If someone wants to do the work to fix the content to fit the title, go for it, because it won't be me. 04:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thegreatdr (talk • contribs)

Dragons flight, would you prefer we rename the articles "200X Atlantic tropical cyclone season"? --Golbez (talk) 05:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, the "hurricane season" is the part of the year when hurricanes have historically occured [1] minus a few right at the edges. And more importantly, scientists do speak of a "hurricane season" even when listing the tropical storms that occured during it. So I am willing to accept that "hurricane season" is an appropriate term for the part of the year with hurricanes and tropical storms (even if a little awkward). By contrast, in my experience scientists never use the noun "hurricane" when they mean a "tropical storm" or cyclones in general. The noun "Atlantic hurricane" is not synonymous with "Atlantic hurricanes and tropical storms". While we are encouraged to use common names, as an encyclopedia I feel we also have obligation to avoid propogating inaccurate names. Many people are unclear about the distinction between hurricanes and cyclones, but abuse of the term "hurricane" really should not justify misnaming a reference work. Since this page is in fact about all forms of North Atlantic cyclones, I feel we need a name (in one form or another) that reflects that. As I suggested above, I am prepared to accept appending "and tropical stroms" as a compromise title if the primary concern is using familiar language. Dragons flight (talk) 05:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not willing to accept adding "and tropical storms" to the title. Yes, scientists do use "hurricane" when they mean tropical cyclones in general. As I've said before, the National Hurricane Center. The Atlantic Hurricane Season. I think a great example not yet mentioned is the name for the official database for tropical cyclones in the Atlantic - HURDAT - which means Atlantic basin hurricane database. Hurricane expert Kerry Emanuel clearly refers to Atlantic hurricane trends. Besides, having a title of Atlantic hurricanes and tropical storms not only sounds unofficial, but to me doesn't even sound like what I'm looking for - it sounds like a news story, or something like that. Or worse, it sounds like it would be a list (List of Atlantic hurricanes and tropical storms), which is very clearly not what we want. ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Dragon's flight is actually suggesting that as a title, but just saying that the two aren't synonymous. —AySz88\^-^ 19:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I was suggesting that as a compromise title, i.e. more accurate than just "Atlantic hurricane" while also less technical. I also like, and probably prefer, "North Atlantic tropical cyclone", but the people farther up thread complained they wanted a more familiar name. Dragons flight (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The main confusion for editors, I think, is that 'Atlantic' seems to be restrictive enough to narrow down to basically the North Atlantic basin (South Atlantic is a footnote in comparison). So saying "Atlantic hurricane" makes it seem like the "hurricane" part *must* be indicating intensity and not basin - thus, the 'wait a second, it's not just about hurricanes!' reaction.

I think readers will probably end up glossing over this, because as Hink points out, people do use "hurricane X" when modifying the noun X, even if they lump in tropical storms too. (I can't recall seeing anything official use the noun hurricane when referring to tropical cyclones in general, though.) I personally think that it would be a good thing to use a technically accurate name, but it's probably a very small effect.

More for editors' sanity than readers', I think the article should be at North Atlantic tropical cyclone. —AySz88\^-^ 19:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Another point is that we routinely name articles based on geography (such as List of New England hurricanes) based on the name of the strongest type of storm possible in the region (a hurricane in the case of the Atlantic). This is to avoid renaming an article from "List of χ tropical storms" to "List of χ hurricanes" if a random clump of cloud with 65-kt sustained winds happens to approach the area. The same idea is generalized to the whole basin, so that's why I prefer the name "Atlantic hurricane" myself. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 22:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Not in the rainfall lists. I didn't want this debate to prop up there, even for the United States article, so the article was named List of wettest tropical cyclones in the United States. The logic some people are trying to use to justify hurricane in the title of this article just doesn't work in the rainfall lists (since TDs cause rainfall too, sometimes significantly so.) Some of you probably remember me bringing up renaming the season articles to something like 2005 Atlantic tropical cyclones due to the really long, tortuous Zeta debate. That debate could have been avoided had we used different terminology for tropical cyclone season articles. But alas, wikipedia states that the most common term wins out. And hurricane season is about the only term used for tropical cyclone seasons in the northeast Pacific and north Atlantic basins. Thegreatdr (talk) 06:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but judging from the comments and considering the change of the name of this article shortly after achieving GA, we have two people supporting the article name remaining the same, and four for moving the article back to some title such as North Atlantic tropical cyclones, which actually better explains the article's contents. I'll place a comment in the tropical cyclone project talk page and wait a week. If the proportion of sentiment remains the same, the article's name will be moved to what seems to be agreed upon. Thegreatdr (talk) 13:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

The move has been done. Thegreatdr (talk) 19:28, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Err, though I'm not the biggest fan of moving the previous to this one, shouldn't the title be singular? ♬♩ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:42, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree (and AFAIK MoS backs it up), so I moved it. –Juliancolton ^{Tropical Cyclone} 21:05, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the plural. Didn't realize it was a MoS violation. Thegreatdr (talk) 00:54, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

New discussion

Was briefly mentioned on the project talk page about moving this article back a while back. Per WP:COMMONAME, the common name for tropical cyclones is hurricanes in this part of the world. It is the Atlantic hurricane season not the Atlantic tropical cyclone season. any thoughts? YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 14:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree it should be moved back. "Atlantic hurricane" is very much the common name. As I've said before, "National Hurricane Center", "Hurricane season", the "Hurricane Research Division" dealing with the "Atlantic Hurricane Database Re-analysis Project". All of the aforementioned deal with TD's and TS's, but it's a bit clunky to go all out and be politically correct. I say we be politically incorrect and go with something that has more moxie and jazz. Vote Hink 2012! --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

If we're going to call the Western Pacific tropical cyclone article Typhoon, we should be consistent and use the locally more common and concise term for the Atlantic tropical cyclone article as well (ie. hurricane). Still, if we move North Atlantic tropical cyclone to Atlantic hurricane, that would mean that it would cover the South Atlantic hurricanes as well. It makes more sense to me to move North Atlantic tropical cyclone to North Atlantic hurricane, move South Atlantic tropical cyclone to South Atlantic hurricane, and create a new article called Atlantic hurricane to be the parent article of both. Neelix (talk) 20:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

South Atlantic hurricanes are rare, and even then, they are called cyclones down there. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 20:46, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I would oppose the creation of a new article called Atlantic TC as it would be redundant too Tropical cyclone basins.Jason Rees (talk) 21:16, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

The NHC officially defines tropical cyclones that form in the North Atlantic basin, which is climatologically the only area where tropical cyclones are "meant to be formed in", as hurricanes. As such I agree with the move. --TheAustinMan^(Talk|Works) 20:54, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I withdraw my suggestion that a new parent article for North Atlantic tropical cyclone and South Atlantic tropical cyclone be created; Jason is correct in that Tropical cyclone basins already serves that purpose. Nonetheless, "South Atlantic hurricane" gets thousands of hits on Google Books. Moving North Atlantic tropical cyclone to North Atlantic hurricane would be fine, but not to Atlantic hurricane; even if South Atlantic hurricanes are normally called tropical cyclones, "Atlantic hurricane" is not a sufficiently specific term to identify only the ones originating in the North Atlantic. That South Atlantic hurricanes are less common does not make the term "Atlantic hurricane" any less ambiguous. Neelix (talk) 22:19, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. There is no such thing as a "South Atlantic hurricane". Furthermore, per WP:COMMONTITLE, an "Atlantic hurricane" is all but guaranteed to mean the same as a "North Atlantic tropical cyclone". --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:02, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

And if the only reason not to move it is because of SATL's, we can have a link up top saying "This is about tropical cyclones in the North Atlantic Ocean. For storms in the South Atlantic, see South Atlantic tropical cyclone." --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 01:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

If there are thousands of hits on Google Books for "South Atlantic hurricane," there is such thing as a South Atlantic hurricane. There is no reason to provide the North Atlantic tropical cyclone article with an ambiguous title if a non-ambiguous title is available. Since "North Atlantic hurricane" is not ambiguous and "Atlantic hurricane" is, North Atlantic hurricane should be the name of this article. Neelix (talk) 20:04, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

But almost all of them are in reference to Cyclone Catarina. As I said, the main article should be "Atlantic hurricane", and to clarify any potential confusion, we can have a note up top saying "This is about tropical cyclones in the North Atlantic Ocean. For storms in the South Atlantic, see South Atlantic tropical cyclone." --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 20:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

• As an aside, since it appears that the name of the article is changing, has anyone designed a bot to change all of the links which point to this article to its new name? These kind of issues show up in article FACs (redirects) as no-nos. I had converted about 2/3 of the Atlantic hurricane redirects to the current article name before the idea of renaming of this article occurred months ago. Thegreatdr (talk) 21:41, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Well, if we decide to do this as an officially proposed move, then I think that would guarantee that the links would be changed. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
    • Does anyone here have AWB rights? I find WP:RM a mess and no offense, half of the people there would not know what they are doing and would likely turn into a big debate when the consensus is pretty clear. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 14:47, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink: There are more than a thousand Google Books hits for "South American hurricane" even when Catarina hits are excluded: [2]. It does not make sense to replace a non-ambiguous title with an ambiguous one; we should not remove the word "North" from the title. Neelix (talk) 16:07, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, all of them deal with the same storm. It wasn't commonly known as Catarina until later. Notice how many of them say "the first ever" and 2004. There is only one "South Atlantic hurricane". Really, it isn't as ambiguous as you're making it out to be. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

They are more than a million for North Atlantic hurricane, thus is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 16:32, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Just above WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is the lesser-known WP:CONCEPTDAB, which takes precedence and states that "If the primary meaning of a term proposed for disambiguation is a broad concept or type of thing that is capable of being described in an article, and a substantial portion of the links asserted to be ambiguous are instances or examples of that concept or type, then the page located at that title should be an article describing the broad concept". North Atlantic tropical cyclone and South Atlantic tropical cyclone are both part of one broader concept: Atlantic tropical cyclone, which is itself part of the broader topic of Tropical cyclone basins. There are many entries on the South Atlantic tropical cyclone article, all of which can be called hurricanes because, as has been stated previously in this conversation, the word "hurricane" is often used synonymously with "tropical cyclone". Atlantic tropical cyclone and Atlantic hurricane should redirect to Tropical cyclone basins, not pretend to be specific to North Atlantic tropical cyclones. Neelix (talk) 18:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not a broad concept, they are two different things that should not be combined. The term Atlantic hurricane would clearly describe hurricanes in the North Atlantic; very few people know SATL storms exist. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 19:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, NATC's and SATC's aren't related at all. Pacific hurricane and Typhoon are much closer since they're at least in the same hemisphere. The North Atlantic is one of the most active basins on the planet (and sometimes is the highest), whereas the South Atlantic isn't even an official basin and has less than one per year (really, there is only one official South Atlantic tropical cyclone in the international tropical cyclone database). Furthermore, Atlantic hurricane should be the parent article for 2005 Atlantic hurricane season, and other season articles. And we know from plenty of sources that the proper term is a "hurricane season" (quick example that the NHC uses "2005 Atlantic hurricane season"). ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:19, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Please review the guideline I indicated. The examples of where a broad-concept article should be implemented are situations like Football, an article that is about a large number of sports that are, in many ways, quite unlike each other, but "which all involve, to varying degrees, kicking a ball with the foot". It is not relevant that North Atlantic hurricanes are vastly different from or more common than South Atlantic hurricanes; both articles deal with hurricanes originating in the Atlantic Ocean, and that is all that is indicated by the term "Atlantic hurricane." It is both deceptive and erroneous to use this term as the title for only a subset of the entities to which the term refers. Neelix (talk) 16:25, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

<-- I totally disagree though. Football is truly a broad concept article, since there are different sports of the same name. I could see that argument for something as generic as Hurricane, but that redirects (appropriately) to tropical cyclone. As far as Atlantic hurricane goes, 99.99999% of the time that applies to those north of the equator. We shouldn't go out of our way to be overly precise when WP:COMMONTITLE applies here. As I said before, we should move this article to Atlantic hurricane and have a see also link up top that says "For storms in the South Atlantic, see South Atlantic tropical cyclone. I really think that is a good compromise. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 16:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

That is not a compromise at all. A compromise would be to allow this article to use the term "hurricane" in the title rather than "tropical cyclone" even though "tropical hurricane" is the more consistent term to use. The term "Atlantic hurricane" is not specific to North Atlantic hurricanes. I see no relevant difference between the football example and this one. Association football is by far the most common type of football, but no matter how much more common it is, it is still only a type of football, not a different concept from football that is more common. Level of commonality is only relevant when the topics being discussed are not subtopics, and North Atlantic hurricanes and South Atlantic hurricanes are both Atlantic hurricanes. To use Atlantic hurricane as the title of only one of these two subtopics is to make a basic ontological error that defies how an encyclopedia should be organized. Neelix (talk) 17:14, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I highly disagree. Football is a very legitimate topic that has multiple usages. As I said, about 99.99999% of the time, Atlantic hurricane excludes the South Atlantic. There's no need to be overly precise for the .000001% of the time. WP:COMMONTITLE clearly apples here. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 18:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

• Definitely agree with "Atlantic hurricane" as the far more common variation. "Tropical cyclone" is needlessly specific when "hurricane" is used by almost everyone to refer to such storms, especially in the Atlantic. Unless we rename every xxxx Atlantic hurricane season article to "tropical cyclone season", moving this article back to Atlantic hurricane is the only reasonable course of action in the name of consistency. Juliancolton (talk) 01:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I am OK with the use of the term "hurricane" in the title, just not with the removal of "North". If South Atlantic hurricanes are so uncommon, why not just add a short section about them at the end of this article with a hatnote in that section linking to South Atlantic tropical cyclone? Then the "North" could be removed from the article title and there would be no inconsistency between the article's title and content. Neelix (talk) 19:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I disagree to that because South Atlantic tropical cyclones are fundamentally different systems, as far as statistics, areas affected, climatology, methods of formation. They're less related than an Atlantic hurricane and a Pacific hurricane. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 06:02, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should open this discussion to the wider community. I don't think we differ in our understanding of the facts; we just differ in our opinions about which facts are most relevant and how to interpret the applicable guidelines. Would you like to draft a proposal for Wikipedia:Requested moves? Neelix (talk) 13:20, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I would not, I don't find WP:RM a very good place. Either way, could there be a consensus. Already, right now four users have been in favor of moving this back and the fifth is just in favor of the word "North". YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 13:31, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

I highly disagree with the recent move to North Atlantic hurricane, considering the consensus was in favor of simply "Atlantic hurricane". Per commontitle, the north is redundant. I am going to move it and get rid of the "north", unless anyone opposes. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I oppose. Commontitle does not apply here, as I have explained above. If you wish to move the article to Atlantic hurricane, start a move discussion at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Neelix (talk) 19:24, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Why, again, does commontitle not apply? We do that regularly for hurricane article titles, such as Cyclone Yasi instead of the pointlessly long Severe Tropical Cyclone Yasi. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:56, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this should be Atlantic hurricane because there is no South Atlantic hurricane. United States Man (talk) 18:14, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Commontitle does not apply here because hurricanes that occur in the North Atlantic Ocean are a subcategory of hurricanes that occur in the Atlantic Ocean. Commontitle is about giving the undisambiguated title to the article about the entity that is most commonly intended by the term, not about giving the undisambiguated title to the article on the most common form of that entity. For example, passerines are by far the most common type of bird and are also what most people mean when they say the word "bird", but we do not call the Passerine article "Bird"; we give that title to the comprehensive entity, not the type of that entity that is most commonly intended. Again, there are thousands of Google Books hits that demonstrate that there is such a thing as South Atlantic hurricanes. Despite the fact that this term is not used in the United States, it is common elsewhere. Neelix (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

@Neelix:I am pretty sure that birds are very different from hurricanes. And you are getting nowhere with the Google Books arguement. Not a single user is buying that. South Atlantic storms are called Tropical Cyclones, so there is no need for this article to have North in its title. United States Man (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

• I have undone the move, as it is clear from reading this talk page that there was no consensus for "North Atlantic hurricane". While there does seem to be a consensus for "Atlantic hurricane", I will let you guys hash this out more. I would like to remind everyone from the text from WP:NAMINGCRITERIA:

These should be seen as goals, not as rules. For most topics, there will be a simple and obvious title that will meet these goals satisfactorily. If so, use it as a straightforward choice. However, in some cases the choice is not so obvious. It may be necessary to favor one or more of the principles behind these goals over the others.

If there is no progress in hashing out a name that everyone agrees with, send this to Requested moves. Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 03:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Yea, I'm thinking that should be the case by now. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 03:39, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd wait for the Pacific hurricane one to finish. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 13:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

2013 discussion

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 17:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

North Atlantic tropical cyclone → Atlantic hurricane – Per WP:COMMONTITLE, and it being much more concise. The point of contention is that, from time to time, there are tropical cyclones in the south Atlantic Ocean, and that therefore storms in the North Atlantic should be called "North Atlantic tropical cyclone". However, there is no official warning agency down there, and there have only been three official storms in the South Atlantic, rendering the "North" redundant. If we get rid of the north, we can just add a dab for those few people wanting the rare South Atlantic storms. There is also the issue of "tropical cyclone" versus "hurricane". Given that we have a National Hurricane Center, a hurricane season, List of United States hurricanes, whatnot, there is precedent toward using "hurricane" as a generic, and common name for tropical cyclones. There are 1.9 million Google hits for "Atlantic hurricane, versus 720,000 hits for "North Atlantic tropical cyclone". There was a general agreement further up on the talk page, but I wanted to have a formal proposal so we can finish this move to where I believe should be the correct location. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:52, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, it keeps it in line with Pacific hurricane, which had a failed move proposal. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Support agreed. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 19:15, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Apteva (talk) 06:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. It's way easier to identify. ABC paulista (talk) 19:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
• Neutral Not all of our North Atlantic TC-related lists default to hurricane, as mentioned way above. I like the current title, because it is precise, but wikipedia is not about precision. It is about what is most common. And commonly, when people mention hurricane, they mean North Atlantic tropical cyclone. This means you should probably simply the name further, if you wanted, to Hurricane, since you are using common name as your criteria. Thegreatdr (talk) 22:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Given that we have a Pacific hurricane, we need to differentiate by basin, at least, but in general agreed. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Seasons list

I'm not sure why the list of links to the hurricane season articles was removed but it needs to be put back in. People have no other convenient way to access those articles. This is a particular problem for older seasons, where the format of article titles changes (spanning decades instead of years). There needs to be links giving people ready access to those articles. Also, and this has been brought up before, the new title of this article is too specific. If you're going to frame this article the way that you are, it should be called "Atlantic tropical cyclone" because "hurricane" only refers to tropical cyclones of a specific intensity. This article is about all TCs. -- Eric B | Talk

The link to the Atlantic hurricane season article is at the bottom. Do you mean reaching the other basins? I wouldn't say that's relevant on this article. I disagree with the title being too specific. Again, it's the "National Hurricane Center", "hurricane season", whatnot. It's just a common title for storms that form north of the equator from North America to Europe/Africa. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 14:45, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

The "List of Atlantic hurricane seasons" article now redirects to the "climatology" section of this page for reasons that remain unclear to me. I see no other page that gives links to the hurricane season articles. And for the record, I disagree with the use of the word "hurricane" in those situations too, particularly "hurricane season"; it should be "tropical cyclone season". A better name for the NHC would probably be "Tropical Cyclone Forecast Center". They are also commonly referred to as the "Tropical Prediction Center" or TPC, which is a much accurate name. But I don't really care that much. I like the other changes to the article, on balance. I just want the links back. Good to talk to you again, btw, Hink. How's life in Jersey? I forgot you dove back into the Wikipedia world. -- Eric B. | Talk - 7:40CDT March 29, 2013

Atlantic hurricane season is what you are looking for Eric. As for the title, it's been brought up before, but per WP:COMMONAME, "hurricane" is the common name for ATL storms not "tropical cyclone". YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 00:52, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. For the record, "List of Atlantic hurricane seasons" should redirect to that page, the one that actually has said list, not to this one. And no, unless "common name" refers to whatever Joe Blow on the street calls it, "hurricane" is not the common name for any Atlantic storm. Using it to describe all tropical cyclones is not meteorologically accurate. "Tropical cyclone" is the generic meteorological term for these types of storm systems. But I don't care enough to get into a protracted argument about it. I left Wikipedia for a reason. -- Eric B | Talk

Redundant links in lead

I realize that with the ADD/ADHD epidemic, and those of us aging, that memories are somewhat lax. I do not see that there needs to be three links to tropical cyclones in the first paragraph. I believe I counted seven links (some using other names) throughout the entire article. Otr500 (talk) 23:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

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Whoops

I noticed that Hurricane/Typhoon John has some new records, so I edited it in. Then I realized that John is a Pacific hurricane/typhoon. It's fixed now.32ieww (talk) 21:38, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

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Recent reverts

I have reverted some recent changes by Ecstatic Electrical to this article and others. There is some discussion regarding those edits at my talk page, but it's getting too long for just my talk page. Regarding just this article, my points are:

• Ecstatic Electrical removed the {{update}} template, apparently without realizing they did so. It shouldn't be removed when the update hasn't been either done or rejected in a talk page discussion. Thus I reinstated it.
• Ecstatic Electrical removed the link to Atlantic hurricane season; on my talk page they said that was an accident. I re-added it.
• Ecstatic Electrical changed the code for the link to the current season from {{See also|Atlantic hurricane season|{{CURRENTYEAR}} Atlantic hurricane season}} to {{for|the current Atlantic hurricane season|2017 Atlantic hurricane season}}. The former will update automatically in 2018 (due to the magic word), the latter needs manual updating. That makes the page more cumbersome and more likely to become outdated.
• Ecstatic Electrical added the {{confuse|Pacific hurricane}} hatnote and argued that it's necessary because people might not be aware that hurricanes also happen in the Pacific. I disagree. People who believe hurricanes are an Atlantic-only phenomenon will see no need to disambiguate the term and will directly look for our hurricane article. Besides, the very first paragraph of the lead explains the nomenclature. So I still maintain there's no serious risk of confusion between Atlantic and Pacific hurricanes that needs to be addressed by this hatnote. The page title makes absolutely clear that the page is not about pacific hurricanes; no one who reads the title would believe otherwise.

For these reasons I still maintain that the article was better without Ecstatic Electrical's changes. Huon (talk) 21:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

For the most part I agree with your viewpoints. There is no need for a hatnote since the title isn't ambiguous. If Hurricane redirected here, it'd be a different story, and yes, there'd be a need for a hatnote. I combined the see also hatnote with the see also section for simplicity largely because I don't see the point of it. I do not know why the {{update}} tag was put into place, so I removed it. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 21:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

For the record, I never said that the reason I added the confuse hatnote was because people might not be aware that hurricanes also happen in the Pacific - all I said was that hurricanes in the Pacific (with the exception of Hawaii) are more often referred to as typhoons by the media, etc. As such, people might think that the article on Atlantic Hurricane refers to all hurricanes if they have never heard the term “Pacific hurricane” before. —Ecstatic Electrical, 23:15, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

So people who have never heard of Pacific hurricanes who end up at this article will be at exactly the place they're looking for. They don't need a hatnote pointing them to another article they weren't looking for. Huon (talk) 02:01, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Please see WP:NAMB, which notes "In many cases it is preferable not to have a hatnote when the name of the article is not ambiguous." The title isn't ambiguous - Atlantic hurricane refer to hurricanes in the Atlantic, and I'm not sure how a reader not knowing of Pacific hurricanes would change anything. YE ^{Pacific Hurricane} 02:27, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Update the Map

Could you please update the map? For now, it ends in 2012. Could you please update it showing the recent seasons (2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018)? Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.4.8.129 (talk) 20:55, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Move to North Atlantic tropical cyclone?

Yes, I know that it says "An Atlantic hurricane or a tropical storm...", but what about tropical depressions? They are tropical storms cyclones too. And doesn't this include them? Anyway, tropical storm is also an intensity in the Pacific Ocean north of the equator... and aren't South Atlantic tropical cyclones sometimes referred to as hurricanes (HURRICANE Catarina) and tropical storms (TROPICAL STORMS Anita and Iba)? 🐔Chicdat ^ChickenDatabase 12:18, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

This has been proposed in the past. We have it at this title for the same reason it’s called the “hurricane season” and the “National Hurricane Center”. The term “Atlantic hurricane” is the common name, since people arguable know the term “hurricane” better than TS or TD. Also, storms are so rare in the South Atlantic that they aren’t really a factor, IMO. The articles clarify that the basin is for the North Atlantic only, which I believe the articles do a good job at explaining. Hurricanehink mobile (talk) 13:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, OK. 🐔Chicdat ^ChickenDatabase 13:48, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

I kinda thought along a similar line. However, the article name could be North Atlantic basin. That way, the article could focus more on the area as a basin, rather than the specific storms that occur. In doing so, this could stream line article development for all the other basins, whose article titles are also based on the storm categories that occur there, such as Pacific typhoon. Hurricane, typhoon, cyclone. They're all the same thing. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 06:07, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Update in general

There are some info in this article that are outdated, like Andrea 2019 being the most recent pre season storm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.19.58 (talk) 17:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Hurricanehink/other page watchers: would you be able to update this article? I notice that the paleo section in particular is reliant on citations before 2000. For impacts, I believe Pielke (here 2008) is quite the outlier in his assessments of hurricane damage. A more modern and secondary source would be better.

Working through old GAs to see if they need a lick of paint. I might nominate for a good article reassessment in a few weeks if nobody has time to address the issues. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)