Talk:Assekrem

Name in Tamahaq?

@Linus Wolf:, I had the English name wrong ("World's End" -- I misread the source), but I mean you changed it to "rim, brim, trim". Is this right? I mean it doesn't make any sense... it sound like a section of some list of rhymes? Is this how the Taureg name things? Should it be "Rim brim trim"?

And the thing is, it just seems quite unlikely that these three separated terms, which I assume don't rhyme in Tamahaq, would rhyme in English. Taking some English synonyms... "rim" and "brim" both have (among other meanings) senses related to the edge of things; "trim" has many meanings, generally related to cleanliness and order, but as a verb it can have meanings related to making things smaller... So casting around with various sense of "rim" and "brim", and then various meanings of has brim -> outermost edge -> selvage, which is "a zone of altered rock, especially volcanic glass, at the edge of a rock mass", and so forth... is it supposed to be "small ridge edge" or something? This is a very long stretch tho... anyway, "rim, brim, trim" with its rhyming seems unlikely, so for the present I'm just removing the translation. Maybe it is just a proper name with no meaning? Herostratus (talk) 12:28, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I meant this as a list of alternative translations, approximating the original meaning. And trim was meant as in ‘cloth attached at a hem’.

The name certainly has a meaning. The short French gloss of the meaning is bordure; the precise meaning is described in the second source I cited: “bordure [d’une ch[ose] en métal, cuir, peau, ou matière un peu flexible] (consistant dans le bord de la chose replié sur lui-même et maintenu replié par sa propre rigidité ou par un moyen q[ue]lconque différent de la couture) […] ; bordure [d’une ch[ose] en matière q[ue]lconque, rigide ou flexible, bois, métal, cuir, peau, étoffe, papier, [et]c.] (consistant en un ruban en matière flexible, métal, peau, étoffe, papier, [et]c., placé à cheval sur le bord de la chose qu’on borde, replié des [deux] cotés, et maintenu replié par sa propre rigidité ou par un procédé q[ue]lconque, coutures, colle, [et]c.)”

I’ll try a translation of the two possible senses:

• trim (?) [of an object of metal, leather, hide, or any slightly flexible matter] (consisting of the rim of the object folded back on itself and kept in place by its own rigidity or any means other than sewing)
• trim [of an object of any matter, rigid or flexible (wood, metal, leather, hide, fabric, paper …)] (consisting of a ribbon of flexible material (metal, hide, fabric, paper …) placed on the edge of the object, folded back on both sides, and kept in place by its own rigidity or by any procedure (sewing, adhesive …)

The first sense is also illustrated in the source.

Any idea how to abbreviate this into a precise but also concise English gloss?

Linus Wolf (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Ohhhh,I get it. Sorry for misunderstanding.

I mean translating is difficult. And there isn't one "right" translation. My go-to example is the book *À la recherche du temps perdu* which for decades was rendered as "Remembrance of Things Past" but with the new translation is "In Search of Lost Time", which are completely different words with a somewhat different meaning. Neither is "wrong" I don't think (I can't read French, and I can't read the sources you are using).

One solution here would be not to translate from the Taureg, of if we do, only translate to French.

When I translate I am pretty free, and I try to get to what they are trying to say in the original. They're probably not talking about the brim of a hat or whatever. Although it's possible. Based on what you say, I'd translate it as "The Edge". (It could be "The Rim" -- essentially the same meaning -- or it *could* be "The Hat Brim", which is a *similar* meaning. I kind of doubt it (do the Taureg wear hats much?), but who knows? Maybe it does look like a hat. Or something else -- "The Hem" or something. More likely the problem is with the French, or even a slightly "off" French translation of the Taureg.

In any case, *all* of these denote an edge of some sort, therefore "The Edge" is probably correct enough and gets the point across, that the name is about some sort of edge and it not called "The Heights" or "The Old Man's Nose" or whatever.

However, if you're not comfortable with that, I'm fine with not translating it at all. Herostratus (talk) 02:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I’m not adverse to giving a short or an approximate translation; of course, the sources should remain intact. From my perspective, I see two preferred variants:

• Giving the sense as ”approximately: ‘the edge’” or some alternative way of wording it.
• Sticking with the short gloss of the most authoritative source, i.e. “border” in some wording that differentiates it from ‘boundary’/‘frontier’ – something like “border/rim” or perhaps “border/trim”.

I’d be glad if you’d advise on some wording which is unambiguous to native speakers. Linus Wolf (talk) 22:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

@Linus Wolf: Well... after thinking it over, since I don't know French and AFAIK there is not even a Taureg dictionary that I can access, for my part I think that we should just leave it untranslated. I don't have sufficient confidence that any translation I come up with wouldn't be wrong. However, if you want to, it's fine with me, go ahead. My choice would be "border, or rim". I don't like the slash, because it is unclear what it means. Herostratus (talk) 16:59, 21 October 2018 (UTC)