Talk:Aslan Karatsev

Russian-Israeli citizen

Aslan Karatsev is a dual citizen of Russia and Israel as he holds both passports. All sources point to this fact in reputable news papers. Please bear this in mind before further deletion of other people’s contributions.

The relevant articles can be found in: The Times of Israel, The New York Times and others.

Thank you Dont belittle245 (talk) 07:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Have you got other sources beside Israeli/Jewish? --User:Tomcat7 (talk) 08:08, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the sources are either Jewish or Israeli. They are reliable and saying otherwise is quite offensive to Jewish people. That said, the New York Times also has said this. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 22:09, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

And I can give you way more reliable sources stating that he's Russian.

• https://sports.nbcsports.com/2021/02/16/aslan-karatsev-reaches-australian-open-semfinals/
• https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/30909757/qualifier-aslan-karatsev-makes-history-reaching-australian-open-semifinals-grand-slam-debut
• https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/aslan-karatsev-is-just-two-wins-from-one-of-the-greatest-sporting-upsets-ever/ar-BB1dIXQy
• https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/sports/tennis/aslan-karatsev-australian-open.html (Doesn't say "Israeli" but mentioned he move to Israel, and title is "Aslan Karatsev of Russia")
• https://nypost.com/2021/02/16/aslan-karatsev-is-the-australian-open-underdog-story-tennis-needed/

- 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 22:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Look at Naomi Osaka. She is referred to as Japanese-American even though she plays for Japan. Same thing should be done with Karatsev and he should be described as Russian-Israeli. See Jerusalem Post "Russian-Israeli tennis player Aslan Karatsev makes Australian Open history." Or the Forward "Russian-Israeli tennis player Aslan Karatsev makes history at the Australian." Ebene Magazine: "Russian-Israeli in the Australian Open quarters." Further, the sources you provide do not DENY that he is Israeli. Just state that he is Russian. You wouldn't say Naomi Osaka is not American because some source does not say she is American. [1], [2],[3] Pennsylvania2 (talk) 23:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

@Pennsylvania2: Huh? The lead is referring to Osaka as a "Japanese professional tennis player." What are you talking about. And no, my sources do not DENY that he moved to Israel and left but they consider the fact that he is Israeli to be of LITTLE significance. Who cares if he is Israeli? He played for Russia in the ATP Cup. His flag is Russia in the tournaments he play in. Adding Israeli is going to confuse readers of who he represents. Plus, I can't trust these sources you put out if they're all Israeli saying that he is Russian-Israeli while all the other sources from around the world say he's Russian. And it's not RT that states this, but Western news outlets AND Eastern news outlets like Xinhua as well. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 23:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The most compromising solution I can give you is have the first sentence be "Karatsev is a Russian professional tennis player of Israeli/Jewish descent." I'm not moving beyond that. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 23:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

RfC on referring to Karatsev as "Russian-Israeli" or "Russian" in the lead

Should the beginning sentence of the lead refer Aslan as "Russian-Israeli" or "Russian?" - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 14:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Background

Recently, there has been an editing conflict in regarding 2021 Australian Open tennis player Aslan Karatsev as either "Russian" or "Russian-Israeli." Pennsylvania2 and Dont_belittle245 are backing the phrase in the first sentence of the lead to be "Karatsev is Russian-Israeli professional tennis player." I'm backing the phrase to be worded as "Karatsev is a Russian professional tennis player of Jewish descent/Karatsev is a Russian professional tennis player of Israeli descent." Pennsylvania2 has given sources backing why Karatsev should be referred to as Russian-Israeli with these sources:

* Forward | https://forward.com/fast-forward/464197/russian-israeli-tennis-player-aslan-karatsev-makes-history-at-the/
* Times of Israel | https://www.timesofisrael.com/russian-israeli-reaches-australian-open-semifinals-in-fairytale-grand-slam-debut/
* Jerusalem Post | https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/russian-israeli-tennis-player-aslan-karatsev-makes-australian-open-history-659197

Pennsylvania2 and Dont's reasoning is that Karatsev has both Russian and Israeli citizenship. However, Tomcat7 and I noticed that most of these sources are based in Israel or pro-Jewish and stated they because of their bias, they cannot be relied on in this scenario. I also noticed that dual citizenship was not mentioned but is backed by the titles and the fact that Karatsev, born in Russia, moved to Israel when he was young, but he also moved back to Russia a few years later. Pennsylvania countered that ousting these sources because they are all Israeli-based is anti-semitic. In my opinion, I believe that Karatsev should be labeled as a Russian tennis player because he represents Russia in tennis. He played for Russia in the 2021 ATP Cup. In the games he played, he has a Russian flag in the scoreboard. The fact that he has Israeli citizenship has little significance and adding "Russian-Israeli" would confuse readers on which country he represents.

Here are sources that prioritize Karatsev being Russian.

• NBC Sports | https://sports.nbcsports.com/2021/02/16/aslan-karatsev-reaches-australian-open-semfinals/
• ESPN | https://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/30909757/qualifier-aslan-karatsev-makes-history-reaching-australian-open-semifinals-grand-slam-debut
• Newsweek | https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/tennis/aslan-karatsev-is-just-two-wins-from-one-of-the-greatest-sporting-upsets-ever/ar-BB1dIXQy
• New York Times | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/sports/tennis/aslan-karatsev-australian-open.html (Doesn't say "Israeli" but mentioned he move to Israel, and title is "Aslan Karatsev of Russia")
• New York Post | https://nypost.com/2021/02/16/aslan-karatsev-is-the-australian-open-underdog-story-tennis-needed/
• RT | https://www.rt.com/sport/515667-aslan-karatsev-australian-open-semifinal/
• Xinhua | http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2021-02/16/c_139746374_2.htm

If you support using the "Russian-Israeli" term, type Support. If you support using just "Russian", type Oppose. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 01:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Polling

• Oppose - For reasons stated above. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 01:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support - Karatsev has an Israeli passport as stated in the Jerusalem Post, The Forward and the Times of Israel. This differentiates him from Medvedev and Sharapova because he holds a passport, which actually makes him a citizen unlike them. However, players who are actually are dual citizens have both nationalities listed. See Alex Bogomolov Jr., Steve Krulevitz and Aravane Rezaï. Furthermore, to say that the sources are unreliable because they are "Israeli" or "Jewish" is unfounded. There is no proof they are not reputable and to say otherwise is anti-semitic. [4], [5], [6]. Karatsev was also offered a spot on Israel's ATP Cup team. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 02:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

It says Bogomolov is Russian-American because he has represented US and Russia. It says Krulevitz because he has represented US and Israel. It says Rezaï is Iranian-French because she has represented Iran and France. That's very different from Karatsev, who has only represented Russia. He played on the Russian ATP Cup team and the Russian Davis Cup team. It has nothing to do with what the sources say. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 23:52, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support - There are players like Daniel Prenn who has all four of his nationalities in the lead. Naomi Osaka gave up her American citizenship in accordance with Japanese nationality law so that is why she is listed as simply Japanese. Also, Maria Sharapova is not an American citizen and neither is Medvedev a Monégasque citizen. Thus, they are not described as American or Monégasque. Tim70cs (talk) 04:42, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose as above. For athlete articles we should stick to the country he plays for; he is known as a sportsman who plays for Russia. His parents may moved to Israel when he was three, but that does not mean anything. Perhaps he holds an Israeli passport, but that does not make him an Israeli tennis player. He has just never played under the Israeli flag. Aforementioned examples are not good; e.g. Bogomolov actually played under the Russian and then under the American flag - that's why it is stating in the lead. There are many sporstpeople with dual citizenship, such as Evgeni Malkin, where in the athlete's article it is not even mentioned anywhere in the English version as far as I see (while in the Russian version it is mentioned in a person life section).--User:Tomcat7 (talk) 06:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Tomcat7. Even when Naomi Osaka was an American citizen, the lead did not describe her as American because she never represented America in competition (there were 2 RFCs on this). As Karatsev has always represented Russia, he should simply be described as Russian in the lead. Iffy★Chat -- 10:54, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support Karatsev can be considered an Israeli national because of his upbringing there, family connections, the fact that he is an Israeli citizen, and fluently speaks Hebrew. He is not really "of Jewish/Israeli descent" so there is no point adding that phrasing. As an aside I believe Naomi Osaka is just as much American as Japanese and that should be reflected in the lead to that article, but that isn't under discussion here. Piddle (talk) 05:57, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  @Piddle: But what is in discussion is using the status quo of describing athletes for Wikipedia articles in the lead, not your beliefs. Naomi Osaka can in nationality terms can only be considered as Japanese since she gave up her U.S. citizenship. Cultural aspects, sure, she may be American, but this is Wikipedia, where we are mainly technical of this stuff. What's under argument here is that we're applying a consensus reason that changed Naomi Osaka's article to her lead nationality to Japanese to this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Naomi_Osaka#New_RfC_on_the_lead_opening_sentence where as Naomi Osaka only played for Japan, Aslan Karatsev only played for Russia, so we're arguing about applying that principle here. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 23:23, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Born in Russia, lives in Russia, plays for Russia. Another tennis player, Bianca Andreescu, has a similar background, where she was born in Canada to Romanian parents, moved to Romania for a few years where she started playing tennis, and moved back to Canada which she now represents. She is described as a Canadian in the first sentence. Her Romanian roots and her connection to the country are mentioned further down in the lead, but not in the nationality sentence. That is despite the fact that plenty of Romanian sources describe her as Romanian or Canadian-Romanian. I think this is the right way to handle this. PraiseVivec (talk) 14:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support per Pennsylvania2 - Idealigic (talk) 14:54, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

  @Idealigic: I noticed you voted for the lead of Naomi Osaka to mention her nationality to be only Japanese. One of the reasons for that is that she only represented one nation in sports, and that is Japan. Why are you not giving the same treatment here, since Aslan Karatsev only represented Russia in tennis? - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 23:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support There are many athletes that have multiple nationality in their lead.Sea Ane (talk) 21:07, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

  @Sea Ane: But there are reasons to why it is, in this case, representing two nations in sports. Here is Tomcat7's response copy and pasted here: "Bogomolov actually played under the Russian and then under the American flag - that's why it is stating in the lead. There are many sporstpeople with dual citizenship, such as Evgeni Malkin, where in the athlete's article it is not even mentioned anywhere in the English version as far as I see (while in the Russian version it is mentioned in a person life section)." - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 23:26, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose (It should say only "Russian" in the first sentence) per Tomcat7. Karatsev is a "tennis player" and he may also be "Israeli", but that doesn't make him an "Israeli tennis player". To count as an "Israeli tennis player", he has to represent Israel, which he has never done. The examples given by Pennsylvania2 are not reflective of Karatsev's situation because those players have all represented multiple countries. Karatsev has only represented one country: Russia. It can be indicated later in the lead that Karatsev grew up in Israel. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Echoing the above opposing votes, I feel that for athletes, their nationality descriptor should only make reference to the nation for which they presently represent. The only exception to this should be for players who have switched the nation they represent either by choice, obligation or depletion of the original nation in itself (ie: Dustin Brown, Ajla Tomljanović, Ana Ivanovic, Greg Rusedski etc). If the support opinion on this topic prevails, then I can't see how it would be justified to not be required to go to every single professional tennis player's biographical page that was born in a country other than the one they represent, and change them in accordance with consistency. The wording on Mary Pierce's bio page is how descriptions for thosw in this situation should look. mcburk (talk) 00:20, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
• (Summoned by bot) Oppose This is covered by MOS:CONTEXTBIO. "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Karatsev's Israeli citizenship does not appear to be relevant to his notability, so it should not be included in the lead. Hrodvarsson (talk) 20:52, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Sinoam: what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 3,600 bytes, the statement above (from the {{rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, sports, and culture. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:01, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

  @Redrose64:

  Should the beginning sentence of the lead refer Aslan as "Russian-Israeli" or "Russian?"

  I changed it if that is the case. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 21:06, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

  The problem was not the lack of subheadings, but the lack of a timestamp within a reasonably short time (see WP:RFCST). Your recent edits have made the situation worse, by introducing a further 108 bytes to make the statement more than 3,700 bytes now. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:31, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

  @Redrose64: I'll create a new RfC that is fixed it if that is the case. I'll copy the information and the polling and paste in the new RfC. Close the old RfC if you need to. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 02:34, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

  No, there is no need for all of that. Just make sure that the existing {{rfc}} tag is followed by a brief and neutral statement that concludes either with a four-tilde signature or a five-tilde timestamp, in accordance with item 3 at WP:RFCST. To avoid confusion about when the RfC started, you may copy the signature (or timestamp) that you used in this edit. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

  Done. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 14:30, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

• Pinging notable sports editors @Sportsfan77777: and @Fyunck(click): who fixed the Naomi Osaka nationality issue on the Naomi Osaka article. - 祝好，Sinoam^(聊天) 23:33, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Amazing form

Can somebody explain superb form. Qatar ATP double title, SF singles Australian open. Dubai ATP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.97.108.45 (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2021 (UTC)