Talk:Arthur Collins (theatre manager)

Paragraph re: Victoria's Death

Re my offered paragraph about the Theatrical Managers Association and Queen Victoria's death, I would make the following points.
1. This is a start class article where, despite having a small number of good references, the content is quite thin, much of it comparable to the significance of my paragraph.
2. I would see this paragraph as a bit of bridge-building, adding content to stimulate more content. I would be happy in the end to see my bridge removed.
3. This paragraph suggests that Collins was functioning as secretary to the Association. Does this call in question the opening paragraph that says his brother became its secretary?
4. I would suggest that Collins being a member of the Council is a significant fact.
5. The death of Queen Victoria provides wider historical context.
6. Collins' action in protecting the interests of his employees may be significant in telling us something about his character, or possibly his industrial relationships.
7. The list of his colleagues tells us something about his professional relationships with colleagues. At least several of these names have significance in the history of theatre.
8. I agree that this paragraph is trivia, but in its context, important trivia. I would suggest therefore that it is worth retaining, pro tem. Let me know what you think. Petrosbizar (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for engaging here on the Talk page, where other users interested in this topic can comment if they wish. Let's start by quoting your suggested addition, so that everyone can more conveniently participate in this discussion:

Following the death of Queen Victoria in January 1901, Collins sent a floral emblem to Windsor on behalf of the Theatrical Managers' Association. At their council meeting, a letter of condolence was read by the chairman, Sir Henry Irving. Others managers present were H. C. Beryl, Milton Bode, E. H. Bull, J. M. Chute, George Conquest, J. F. Elliston, H. A. Freeman, J. Pitt Hardacre, William Morton, W. B. Redfern, E. G. Saunders. Edward Terry and F. W. Wyndham. West End theatres closed for several days, but in view of the hardships caused to staff, Collins reopened Drury Lane on the Saturday, as did Tom Davis of the Lyric.[12: ‘Chit Chat’, The Stage, 31 January 1901, p. 11]

• He sent a floral emblem. Why is this of any significance? Does the source state its significance? Perhaps it would help if you would reproduce the source here.
• Why was the reading of the letter of condolence important to Collins's life or career?
• You seem to be saying that Collins re-opened Drury Lane earlier than most other theatres re-opened? If so, why is this of particular significance to his life and career? If you have a source that says that this was of particular importance, or even that he treated his staff in an *unusual* way, we could mention that.
• You do not actually say that Collins was a member, let alone secretary, of the council. Does the source say he was? And if so, why is this significant to his life and career? I have been a secretary or other officer of lots of organizations that I do not list on my CV, as many people have. So, if this is significant, you need to cite a source that explains *why* it was significant.
• If you want to discuss Collins's personal or professional relationships, you need to find sources that discuss them and explain the particular significance of each.
• The fact that an article is only a start article does not mean that we should put tangential factoids into it. It means that we need to expand the article with the most important facts about the subject, his life and career, referenced by WP:Reliable Sources that specifically support the facts asserted.

Again, it is hard really to understand your arguments without seeing the source. On its face, though, I don't see anything significant here about his life or career. All the best, -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

The proposed addition is interesting, and would fit well in an article on Victorian and Edwardian theatre, but I don't think it's very relevant to the Collins article. With the excision of the second and third sentences it would be borderline relevant, possibly, though even then I don't think the reader would be getting core information about the subject. Tim riley talk 07:47, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments to current text

1. Thank you for your comments and probing questions. I have now read the article more thoroughly, and looked again at bits of my research. You have the advantage of knowing a lot more about the subject matter. My main advantage is that I come to it fresh. Before deciding if any, or none, of my suggestions belong here, I would like to comment on the article as it now stands.

2. I found corroboration that brother Horace later became secretary of the TMA : “... it turns out, the protest to the Postmaster General came not from the League but from the Theatrical Managers' Association, whose secretary, Horace Collins ...”, (‘Stage Defence’, The Stage, 20 August 1936, p.  8). In the light of that, it would be rather perverse to ignore Collins' own involvement in the TMA. However, I would modify Collins relationship with the TMA to being 'an active member of the council' and ignore the illustration, i.e. the memorial wreath.

GENERALLY, I agree with you that this start article (like all start articles) needs a big expansion, using lots more authoritative biographies and sources. I'm not going to do that, ever. Someone with lots more interest in Collins than me will need to undertake that task. I hope it is you, but no one is obligated to do a big project on Wikipedia; the spirit must take them. In the meantime, I'll respond to your comments here point by point. First, assuming that The Stage's article is correct that Arthur's brother Horace was sec'y of the TMA, that fact does not add anything of relevance to Arthur's life or career, only to Horace's. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

3. Sub-heading Career, para 1.

• Second sentence: Being pedantic, 'whom' rather than 'who'.

OK, done! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• And also, still being pedantic, the full stop should be outside the final speech marks.

I don't think you're right. In the original quote, the full stop is within the speech marks. See WP:LQ: "Include terminal punctuation within the quotation marks only if it was present in the original material".

• Last sentence. It is not clear whether the quote about W S Gilbert is intended to be the opinion Arthur, based on his enjoyable but one-off meeting or, more likely, the opinion of of Horace, which may not be that relevant.

The quote is about Arthur's meeting with Gilbert. It is clearly something that Arthur related to Horace about how Arthur learned his way around the theatre. So I think it is obviously relevant. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

4. Sub-heading Career, para 2.

• The dates for Collins as manager at Drury Lane don't quite agree with those in the Drury Lane article which says 1896 - 1923. Contemporary newspapers say that Collins became manager and lessee in March 1897 (e.g.Theatrical Gossip, The Era, 30 January 1897, p. 12).

Frankau and Hartnoll must have done this research and concluded that the contemporary press reports had the starting date slightly wrong. I'd rely on them before an item called "Gossip". In any case, Collins was likely the managing director upon Harris's death, even if the new lease was not in effect until 1897. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• Collins' resignation from management due to continued ill health was widely reported in the press on 2 Feb 1924. Later that year he was awarded a pension of £2000 pa. I would suggest therefore that his dates as manager are actually 1897-1924, and that the Drury Lane article be so modified as well.

If you wish to change the ending date in the Drury Lane article, you should cite the relevant news article from at least a couple of the most prestigious papers -- hopefully The Times, and hopefully the title of the article will not be "Gossip". -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• The informative quote from Horace about obtaining the lease will read much better in a blockquote. [MOS]

I don't agree that MOS requires this; it is an aesthetic question. Making it into a blockquote will leave a stubby paragraph afterwards. Try it, if you feel strongly. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• Eliza Davis - her significance is not obvious to a new reader without additional info; e.g. 'society hostess and long-time lover of Henry Irving'. Also, this does not need to be a quotation (from Mrs Aria). And the 90 frocks?

I just added that Davis was a "fashion and society writer", which at least hints at why she might design costumes. We give her blue link, so if people want to know gossipy stuff about Davis that has nothing to do with Collins, they can click on her. Personally, I find her Owen Hall connection much more interesting than her Henry Irving connection, but both are irrelevant to Collins's article. Anyhow, Davis was the one who was impressed by the number of ladies' costumes for the play (90 is a very unusual number of costumes for a play!). She could have been exaggerating, though, so we need to quote her directly. I've shortened the quote. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

5. Sub-heading Career, para 3.

• 'Command performance' and 'marriage' are oddly linked in first sentence; this needs unravelling. Also, it doesn't need to be a quote (from Frankau).

If you have sources that separately support part of this information, feel free to use them. Again, I agree that the article could be MUCH expanded; it could be several times its length and use lots more sources. But until you or someone does so, we absolutely need to quote Frankau in order to present this info. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• The croquet/billiards sentence without any context is simply weird. Also, it's an unexplained quote (from Frankau).

I disagree. This is a great quote about his hobbies and how he regarded his leisure time. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• The final quote from Horace also needs to be a blockquote. It might be improved by abridging its second half.

Done! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Further comments re: proposed Victoria/TMA paragraph

1. Returning to my proposed addition, and to your questions, I think Collins, as a young manager, would value highly his professional association and his place on its council. Surely most professional people would, especially when chaired by an eminent person in the business. It would also be valuable at a practical level, networking with fellow theatre managers, both formally and informally, exchanging information, giving mutual support, acting together in society. Some of this can be gleaned from contemporary newspapers, but I have not made a detailed examination. the Theatrical Management Association page currently tells us virtually nothing (other than a minor edit of my own).

So find sources where he states that he valued these things. See WP:OR. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

2. The list of fellow council members. Is it useful? I think it all depends. In isolation, probably not; edited, potentially yes. My initial re-edit of that list would be: "The chairman was Sir Henry Irving. Other established managers present amongst the 14 at that monthly meeting were: E. H. Bull of Wolverhampton; Milton Bode with theatres in various parts of the country; James Macready Chute of Bristol; George Conquest of the Surrey Theatre; J. F. Elliston of Bolton; John Pitt Hardacre of Manchester; William Morton of Greenwich and Hull; E. G. Saunders of Camden; Edward O'Connor Terry of Terry's in the Strand (he married Florence, Augustus Harris's widow in 1904) and F. W. Wyndham of Edinburgh." However, I think the other matters need attending to before we decide how much of my material is worth adding. Petrosbizar (talk) 15:27, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Name dropping is not useful. If Collins had a strong business or personal connection with someone, find a source that describes it. BTW, just a practical point: please don't use the # sign for lists. If someone (like me) comments under the # sign, then it resets the number to "1", so that every number becomes "1". So I changed your numbers to permanent numbers. Thanks. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2016 (UTC)