Talk:Arnis/Archive 1

Renaming of main article page from "Eskrima" to "Arnis"

Guys, with the passing of Republic Act 9850, Arnis is now the official national sport and martial art of the Philippines, with Eskrima and Kali as substitutes. As it is now the main umbrella term used in the law and is the more commonly used term in the Philippines, the main article should be renamed from Eskrima to Arnis.

• Arroyo signs law making ‘arnis’ national martial art
• Arnis declared National Martial Art and Sport
• Palace declares arnis as national martial art and sport

Official text of the law: AN ACT DECLARING ARNIS AS THE NATIONAL MARTIAL ART AND SPORT OF THE PHILIPPINES

Opinions? -Object404 (talk) 09:22, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that the proper term is now accepted to be "Filipino Martial Arts," or FMA. This term was come as a comprimise upon due to rivalries within the FMA community as to which among Eskrima, Kali, and Arnis is the proper nomenclature. -99.54.44.223 (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

There is already an article named FMA, although it is basically a duplicate of this article, since it has practically no information on the little-known styles of FMA besides escrima. Since the Filipino martial arts article has many issues, I would just merge it into Eskrima, then rename Eskrima to Filipino martial arts. K.Bog 04:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Updates

I've updated the list of films and TV shows which contain FMA & have tried to give credit to their known choreographers. I've also edited and expanded the list of major styles, placing the systems founded and practiced by first-generation Filipinos first and have tried to organize them by family and lineage as this provides better clarity and perspective compared to alphabetical arrangement. The list of styles in this section are all founded by recognized Filipino grandmasters. These have now been properly given precedence over styles which have only been developed overseas. These are also not ordered by any particular ranking of "importance" as that is a very subjective term and will only lead to arguments by rival groups online.

Although Dan Inosanto's contribution and impact to the world for FMA cannot be stated enough, Inosanto Blend has been placed in the international section as it is not practiced in the Philippines on its own.

Some of the links to international groups have are a bit questionable as being "notable" (a relative term) and may lead to link whoring by young schools created by foreigners simply looking to make a name for themself and attract students on the internet. As such, I have removed Kali Anderson from the list as it was only formed in 2005. Perhaps to remedy this and avoid arguments, a separate article can be created for major styles broken down by country/region?

Regards,

Changed "effective & practical martial arts" to "effective & practical weapon-based systems" in the sport section to reduce subjectiveness. It's the weapon base of Eskrima that makes it different. Its practicality stems from the fact that no one carries around swords anymore whereas blades, clubs & improvised weapons are commonly found everywhere. Object404 (talk) 05:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

Spanish influence on Filipino culture and martial arts. It is undeniable that eskrima is influenced by ( esgrima)spanish fencing more than is acknowledged. The Spanish empire was experienced in conquering and by this time period Spanish military as other European powers used Guns. The Spanish around this time were considered were held in high reguards in Sword arts and were known for their Espada y Daga school (Sword and Dagger. This article is filled with propaganda promoting a national ideal. How could the natives hide weapons training by pretending to practice spanish weapons training and not get exposed? Logic dictates the ruling class would not let the conquered people practice weapons training period.

This ideology is martial arts myth going against the historical references and fact. Note that this is the same myth attributed to Capoeira, that the african slaves hid their martial arts by pretending to dance. It is evident that the techniques found in eskrima are identical to sabre fencing specially Spanish rapier schools.
(0% of the names in escrima techniques are literal indications of Spanish (castellian)    —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.54.8.46 (talk) 01:56, 1 March 2010 (UTC) 

Wing Tsun has a special connection to Escrima, or at least the Wing Tsun club I briefly practised at liked to combine Wing Tsun with escrima -- is this anything interesting that should go in the article. I have no idea how these two relate, or how much. ✏ Sverdrup 17:22, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Definitely not. Wing Chun is completely unrelated to Eskrima. The perceived relation is a misconception that exists because of Dan Inosanto's high profile in the FMA world. Dan also teaches Wing Chun which he picked up (and further studied) during his close association with Bruce Lee and development of Jeet Kune Do. The Doce Pares and Modern Arnis families have notable Aikido and Karate influences in the throwing and locking as some of the founders were black-belters in Japanese systems. Arnis systems are particularly complementary with Aikido as they have similar rounded movements. Object404 (talk) 06:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

---

Historically, they were unrelated until the last fifty years (or less). Bruce Lee was trained in Wing Chun and learned Eskrima from Dan Inosanto; since he and Dan Inosanto were instrumental in popularizing both arts, they tend to be linked. -> (comment: they are not linked. Wing Chun is not taught in FMA. They are only linked in schools that teach both such as the ones that have instructors that trained with Inosanto. They are complementary though and work well together :) Object404 (talk) 06:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC))

Technically, they have certain similarities (and also some essential differences), so that teaching them together is more reasonable than teaching some other pairs of martial arts together.

Information about this, suitably researched, would be reasonable addition to the history section of this article. --Andrew 21:53, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

They are very related in thought, though can be seen as coming to the same place from different directions. However a philosophical discussion is beyond the scope of this article. It would be nice to add a small section about the comparisons however... 75.26.7.122 10:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC) -> As with other martial arts, FMA has many similarities with unrelated ones. The simultaneous attack-block with 2 hands in Wing Chun is also used in FMA and footwork in the Ginga of Capoeira is very similar in the triangular footwork of many FMA styles.Object404 (talk)

I think this article needs some serious clean-up...

"Many believe many of these philippine fighting system have strong historical roots from Indonesian martial arts that are Chinese influenced like Kun Dao. Kun Dao (literally the way of the fist) of course finds its roots from Ch'uan Fa(which is a generic word for what westerners would call kung fu(beautiful skill), it also literally means way of the fist.) Other systems that have similar movements to many Filipino systems that also find their roots from Ch'uan Fa. These systems are known by varying degrees of arguements in the west about the exact nature of their name whether it be Kempo or Kenpo both literally mean Way of the fist. There are even counts of lost Ch'uan and Tai Chi Double stick forms that many of the freeing rengade monks would of trained for that period. These Chinese based influences are not as powerful as the direct links to the cultural and politcal unrest found in the Philippines even today. However they are still important to note since they provide historical evidence that is overwhelming and can add to ones understanding of the much deeper nuances and movements of and in the systems. Many even believe the systems are totally intact in the way profound Chinese arts once were before events like the cultural revolution."

What is this actually trying to say? "According to some rumors eskrima may have a connection to a presumed lost two-stick form of tai chi"? Less speculation, more facts, please.

Did some clean-up.

BTW, the picture with the "eskrima sword" is not likely a real eskrima sword, but rather a product of Western imagination like the "ninja-to". I suggest it should be replaced with a photo of a real Filipino weapon.

Did some copy-editing, which may have changed some meaning. Namely, I changed "freeing monks" to "fleeing monks". I have no knowledge of eskrima, martial arts history, or Philippine history, so I'm just doing a best guess on what the original contributor meant. I was also hoping for a bit more background on this supposed connection between Philippine and Indonesian/Chinese forms. I was going to ask if anybody had anything to add on this issue, but it looks like someone already beat me to it. I'm going to place a cleanup notice on that section. Hopefully, it'll make readers alert and more likely to read critically until some expert can sort this thing out. crazyeddie 20:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

"BTW, the picture with the "eskrima sword" is not likely a real eskrima sword,[...]"

Agreed, removed it until a suitable replacement can be found. A kalis or barong, perhaps? --Lazyhound 03:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone submit a photo or do you folks prefer something from a verifiable online source? I can offer a few pics of my collection for whoever wants them, if you think they're necessary.BHenry1969 (talk) 10:21, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

history

the philippines was called "maharlika" before the spanish came??? can anyone please veryfiy this. I never heard the word used to call the country before the spanish came. Cloudhand 05:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever called 'Maharlika'; In tagalog "maharlika" literally means blue-blood/s or noble/s or majestic... The Wikipedia article on Pre-Hispanic Philippines also mentions Maharlika's are the warrior-upper-class caste (like Knights). I was told that Ferdinand Marcos tried to change it to Maharlika, but i can't find a credible source on that claim.

It annoys me that much of the Philippine's ancient literature, art, archeology and most of it's true culture were bombed away in WW-II by the Japanese. Luckily, pop-culture (to a degree) make attempts to (selectively) revive it. --Mousedanger134 (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

maharlika, probably from sanskrit mahalinga, meaning great phallus (maha=great, linga=phallus). i forgot the source, will post it as soon as i get the source. Cloudhand (talk) 11:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

-> pls research more guys, the bangsamoro of the philippines claimed their ancestors refered to the islands as maharlika when the philippines was still an islamic state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.176.233 (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Moros always say they have "research" about Luzon and Visayas being Islamic but don't come forward with evidence for perused by neutral scientific experts. We've heard of that tired old bangsamoro propaganda and please, you moro propagandists should do more research yourselves and come up with something better than just separationist claims and folklore paraded as "evidence". Sure you can claim that there are books on this but that doesn't qualify as evidence.

spelling

The spelling "Matrial Arts attire" is a mistake, no? P0M 06:20, 7 September 2005 (UTC) Could be worse... ever see someone get confused between "martial arts" and "marital arts"? I'll go ahead and edit it. Thank you for the heads-up. -Fuzzy 14:36, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Hm I saw another mispelling "hte" for "the". I'll edit this one. Jovanenriquez (talk) 02:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

List of Eskrima systems

It has become real messy. It looks like a horribly written article about one style.Peter Rehse 03:57, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I did what I could - but it needs work. Still feels like everyone is trying to outsell the other.Peter Rehse 07:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this is OK now - but an eye needs to be kept on it.Peter Rehse 04:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added heavily and have tried to organize the major systems practiced in the Philippines. Object404 (talk) 20:13, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Subjective opinion regarding 'tempers' and weapon use?

I've not visited, nor am I an expert on the Philippines, but this paragraph strikes me as both biased and subjective in opinion (4th Paragraph under History):

Local folk in the Philippines are much more likely to carry knives than guns, and much more likely to use them when tempers rise, than people in North America or Europe. As a result, knife-fighting (and to a lesser extent, fighting with machetes) is still very much a living skill in the Philippines, particularly in rural areas and especially in areas where insurgents are based.

The specific term that seems off is:

...much more likely to use them when tempers rise...

I live in the Philippines. The above statement is factual. Guns in altercations where tempers rise tend to occur more with policemen or military who get drunk in bars or middle to upper-class rich boys in road rage alterations.

The Philippines is has a blade culture as opposed to say, the U.S. which has more of a gun culture. Knives are very much used and alive that's why FMA is particularly adapted to these things. It is a living skill that is still relevant.Object404 (talk) 07:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

That is an opinion, not a factual statement based on research or data. It's akin to me writing:

"Local folk in Oakland are much more likely to carry knives than guns, and much more likely to use them when tempers rise, than people in San Francisco or Hayward. As a result, knife-fighting (and to a lesser extent, fighting with machetes) is still very much a living skill in Oakland, particularly in rural areas and especially in areas where Oakland people are based."

Removing it would add credibility to the historical influence or citing a specific notation as to why a specific race or country of people are 'much more likely to use' weapons 'when tempers rise'. --Bradyjfrey 04:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

• IT IS* a fact. I live in the Philippines and the balisong is commonly carried by muggers who stick up people in Jeepneys. Stabbings in brawls and altercations are very very common. One thing you guys have to realize is that balisongs are very easy to procure as opposed to guns. Altercations with guns tend to occur more with the middle class.Object404 (talk) 07:02, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

removed seciton

This was getting very long & needs a trim if it's going to be returned. --Nate 09:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Eskrima in popular culture

• In the game Mortal Kombat, the character Quan Chi and Dairou practice Eskrima, also, Sonya and Kobra use Kali sticks. In Mortal Kombat Annihilation, Sultan Uddin not only portrayed Reptile, but choreographed Princess Kitana's fight sequence showcasing movements of Eskrima Serrada. In Mortal Kombat Conquest, the television series, Sultan Uddin showcased Eskrima Serrada as the character Noob Saibot.
• Marvel Comics' blind hero, Daredevil, uses what are very likely Escrima fighting sticks. The two sticks gradually evolved from a blind man's walking stick to the escrima sticks seen in modern Daredevil comics.
• DC Comics characters Nightwing and Oracle (Barbara Gordon) also use Escrima sticks; the latter is able to use them while wheelchair-bound.
• Video game characters Eagle and Mr. Big Also use modified forms of Escrima.
• The Bourne Identity features kali, according to Matt Damon during DVD featurettes and director Doug Liman in the commentary track (fight coreographer was Jeff Imada, a kali instructor who trained under Dan Inosanto). Liman stated that the kali's principles of minimal effort informed their development of Bourne's character.
• The Hunted featured Sayoc Kali.
• In the Soul Calibur series, the character Talim (who is also Filipina) uses techniques similar to those found in Escrima. In particular, the abaniko, and several of her techniques are named in Tagalog. Her weapons also vaguely resemble those found in the practice of Escrima.
• The movies Mission Impossible 3 and Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life feature short fight scenes with the lead stars Tom Cruise and Angelina Jolie respectively, using rattan sticks
• In the movie Equilibrium the commentary reveals that Eskrima is used in the fight between John Preston and Brandt.
• Dan Inosanto, who is Bruce Lee's most successful martial arts student, is shown using Eskrima in the unfinished film Game of Death.
• In the 1996 movie Barb Wire, Temuera Morrison's character uses empty handed Eskrima techniques to take out Customs Agents, Diana Lee Inosanto and Ron Balicki.
• In the 2002 movie Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever, Lucy Liu's character uses Eskrima to fend off her opponents with Kali sticks.
• In the 2003 movie "Resident Evil: Apocalypse", Milla Jovovich's character was trained by Ron Balicki to use Eskrima to finish off several opponents with expandable batons.
• In the 2006 movie "The Sensei", Diana Lee Inosanto's character uses Eskrima to train a young boy nearly beaten to death.
• The fighting style of the character Teyla Emmagan from Stargate: Atlantis is based on Eskrima.
• In the 2004 Atlus Game Boy Advance game - Double Dragon Advance features the use of Kali sticks and the ability to wield and attack in the Escrima style. Also in Double Dragon II and Advance, the enemy character Chin, uses Kali sticks against the player.
• In the 2004 movie, "The Prodigy", Fight / Stunt Coordinator Ron Balicki stylized all the fights in the movie using Eskrima / Kali techniques.
• In the Chronicles of Riddick series Riddick (Vin Diesel) employs a fighting style that is a more aggressive variation of Eskrima.

I have added Rapid Arnis as a style popular in Europe as we have mention of popular styles in the USA, bearing in mind Europe also has many styles that are popular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.106.199 (talk) 00:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

what is not kali

The Thai have their on stick fighting form based on their traditional sword movements. Not everyone that does a double stick is practicing FMA. Ong Bak did not use FMA. Tony Jaa has a lot of material available to him as Thai.

The Brits have their own single stick fighting as well as much as we want to promote FMA it cannot be propelled by false claims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.128.37.174 (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

Renmoved the section, as itis all unsourced & adds littel to the article can any be integrated?

==Eskrima in popular culture==

• In the game Mortal Kombat, the characters Quan Chi and Dairou practice Escrima, also, Sonya Blade and Kobra use Kali sticks. In Mortal Kombat Annihilation, Master Sultan Uddin not only portrayed Reptile, but choreographed Princess Kitana's fight sequence showcasing movements of Eskrima Serrada. In Mortal Kombat Conquest, the television series, Master Sultan Uddin showcased Eskrima Serrada as the character Noob Saibot.
• DC Comics characters Nightwing/Dick Grayson and Oracle/Barbara Gordon also use Escrima sticks; the latter is able to use them while wheelchair-bound.
• Video game characters Eagle and Mr. Big Also use modified forms of Escrima.
• In the popular films The Bourne Identity, The Bourne Supremacy and The Bourne Ultimatum. The character of Jason Bourne uses Eskrima and elements of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, according to Matt Damon and the film's Stunt Fight Coordinator Jeff Imada during DVD featurettes.
• The Hunted featured Sayoc Kali.
• In the Soul Calibur series, the character Talim (who is also Filipino) uses techniques similar to those found in Escrima. In particular, the abaniko, and several of her techniques are named in Tagalog. Her weapons also vaguely resemble those found in the practice of Escrima.
• The movies Mission Impossible 3 and Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life feature short fight scenes with the lead stars Tom Cruise and Angelina Jolie respectively, using rattan sticks
• In the movie Equilibrium the commentary reveals that Eskrima is used in the fight between John Preston and Brandt.
• Dan Inosanto, who is Bruce Lee's most successful martial arts student, is shown using Escrima in the unfinished film Game of Death and engages in a brief stick fight against Steven Seagal in Out for Justice. Inosanto's character is billed, appropriately enough, as "Sticks."
• In the 2002 movie, Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever, Lucy Liu's character uses Eskrima to fend off her opponents with two expandable batons.
• In the 2003 movie, "Resident Evil: Apocalypse", Milla Jovovich's character likewise uses Eskrima to finish off several opponents with expandable batons.
• In the 2008 movie, "The Sensei", Diana Lee Inosanto's character uses Eskrima to train a young boy nearly beaten to death.
• The fighting style of the character Teyla Emmagan from Stargate: Atlantis is based on Eskrima.
• In the 2004 Atlus Game Boy Advance game - Double Dragon Advance features the use of Kali sticks and the ability to wield and attack in the Escrima style. Also in Double Dragon II and Advance, the enemy character Chin, uses Kali sticks against the player.
• It is stated in the features of the Chronicles of Riddick that Richard B. Riddick uses a more brutal variation of Kali.
• Former professional wrestler Steve Blackman used glow-in-the-dark Escrima sticks as part of his ring entrance.
• In the 2005 video game Condemned: Criminal Origins, certain enemies use Filipino Martial Arts stick combat.
• In Enter the Dragon, Bruce Lee briefly uses Escrima in the fight sequence in the underground complex.
• In The Scorpion King, the villan Memnon uses escrima sticks during the courtyard demonstration.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nate1481 (talk • contribs)

I can source the Chronicles of Riddick thing ([1]) and the Teyla from Stargate Atlantis thing ([2]). I'm not sure if that will be of any use though.. 72.79.217.249 (talk) 14:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A couple of places like Capoeira have a few references where it's not just one scene in a movie, and then a separate entry that is Capoeira in popular culture that has a more expanded list including the one-scene items. -Fuzzy (talk)

Indication of having European(Spanish) origin.

Over 65 percent of the names used in Escrima are in spanish(castilian). The people of the Philippines do not speak spanish now or then and except for a small upper class. The history must be reserched by anthropologist not martial artist who tend to be biased. It must me aknowledge that Europeans with long histories of war had developed thousands of martial arts that were far advanced. The spanish culture specially was experienced in conquering and wars. They were known at one point to have the top fencers so it is a point to be acknowledged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.62.10.36 (talk) 13:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

This is completely incorrect. Spanish was the Lingua franca during the Spanish colonization period as was the only language that was widely understood throughout the archipelago as each region/province/tribe spoke a different dialect (there are over 170 dialects spoken in the Philippines distributed among its more than 7,000 islands). Tagalog only became the national language (much to the protest of Visayans where Cebuano mas more widely spoken) during the start of the Commonwealth Era circa 1936. Aside from this, there are Spanish words which had no equivalent in local dialects, so they used the Spanish words for these. Object404 (talk) 11:33, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Spanish had nothing to do with the origins of Eskrima martial arts. When Spanish explorer Magellan and his men attacked King Lapu-Lapu on Mactan Island in 1521, he was expecting no resistance from the little brown Filipinos. He was instead killed by Filipinos trained in their own stick and sword fighting systems. This was the precursor of eskrima. Many years later, after Spain continued sending expeditions, the Filipinos were subdued and converted to Spanish catholics. The Filipinos adapted to their Spanish colonizers. Spain would colonize the Philippines for about 300 years. The Filipinos were required to learn Spanish and were banned from practicing their eskrima martial arts. To keep their martial arts alive, the eskrimadors created dances (or eskrima forms) to hide their eskrima moves from the Spanish colonizers. In the Visayas, the people's language (Visayan or Bisaya) evolved to incorporate a lot of Spanish words. This explains the many Spanish terms in the current Eskrima terminology. In 1898, the Filipinos finally rebelled against the Spaniards and with the help of the U.S., were granted independence from Spain. The Philippines became a colony of the U.S. thereafter. English became the new language to learn and Spanish language very gradually died. Until the 1980's, Spanish language was only required in high school curriculum. But currently, it is no longer mandatory. Moemanofnj (talk) 06:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, it's almost certain that the Spanish fighting styles left an influence on Filipino fighting styles. If anything, their disarmament of the Luzon and Visayas regions shaped the way FMA evolved to use sticks and shorter blades (the tribes were disarmed of their long swords so fighting shiffted to dual farming implement weapons)Object404 (talk) 10:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

@Moemanofnj: Sorry, but as a Filipino, I have to disagree. Most reliable sources about Escrima begin in the late 18th century. It is questionable, if there ever was a effective version of Escrima before then. Most spanish books describe the fighting arts of Lapu-Lapus people as "unrefined and very primitive". Lapu-Lapu didnt win because of his good swordmanship, he simple won because most spaniards were sick (Pigafetta wrote, that nearly all men had scurvy) and simply not able to fight properly. Our people were also in superior numbers, 50 ill spaniards against hundreds of healthy warriors, what is this scenario supposed to illustrate? I am a Filipino, but this scenario doesnt prove anything. This story was later stylized as propaganda for the "undefeatable Escrimadors". Gentlemen please, we live in the 21st century, we really should avoid unprovable myths and modern advertisements and focus on reality. Also: the espada y daga style is based upon European fencing (if you dont believe me, check out some old fencing literature, they show the exact same techniques and disarms, just with longer weapons).--188.61.214.157 (talk) 13:02, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Removal of totally false claims

This article needs a major clean-up. Philippine texts and Kawi langauge documents clearly illustrate NO CHINESE influence in this martial art- as they describe how the Chinese people, who they would often war with as Chinese were enemies of the Austronesian people, would keep teaching of their fighting arts solely to their own clans, or kin- especially kung fu, jeet kun do, tai chi. Chinese people are welcome to be proud of their culture- but claiming everyone in South East Asia was influenced by them is totally false- the Malay or more accurately Austronesian people were influenced primarily from India, then Java's (sriwjaya, Majaphit) and internal traditional trade routes as evidenced by inscriptions on Angkor Wat and Thom, the famous Laguna Kawi copper plate and the widespread use of Jabanese names in Cambodia (Kampung) etc. The keris is entirely indigenous to Java and latest research illustrates bronze technology and rice cultivation (sawah) existed first in Java and Thailand and traveled toward China. Please stop this Chinese cultural superiority complex- it has no basis in historic reality and is deeply offensive. Besides- China was influenced by India- where ceramics, metal working, pagodas, Buddhism and pictographic writing all prelate any Chinese artifact. Spanish names do not prove lineage- merely the Colonial imposition of Spanish on the Filipinos who were legally banned from speaking their own languages. Read some university-level books please.125.161.148.18 (talk) 08:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Chinese Filipinos are one of the largest ethnic groups in the Philippines and many Filipinos have Chinese ancestry. There were many heavy Chinese settlements in Luzon such as in Pangasinan (which is home to Cinco Terros) which was settled by the Chinese pirate Limahong and his clan, so the ethnicity in those areas have high large Chinese components, even in the family names (son beng->Bengzon, son si->Sison, son di->Dizon). It is only natural that the fighting arts of these settlers made their way into these areas. Kindly know the personal history and people from the Philippine regions before trying to sound like an expert. Not everything is written in books and many of those books lack more rigorous research. Object404 (talk) 11:42, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"nobility class preserved the ancient art in secret". Yeah, I see this kind of claim all over the place, pretty much in every article about some traditional martial art I come across. That is every martial art that doesn't have an obvious founder who lived in the 19th or 20th century, and even there people love to claim that these people only adapted secret ancient martial arts. The funny thing is that these claims are almost never substantiated, and if they are, the reference is just some guy making the claim in print somewhere, without giving any sort of substantiation in his turn. So, don't get me wrong, this is not an issue with Eskrima in particular, it's endemic to our martial arts articles. It's just that the Eskrima page in this respect is no different form the mainstream average.

The problem with these claims of antiquity is that they aren't so much wrong as just empty. It's like saying the English language is ancient, aged at leats 50,000 years. That's "true" because nobody ever stopped speaking for the past 50k years, so English is necessarily the result of an unbroken tradition of that age. Just like any other language. In the same sense, people have never stopped hitting each other with sticks for at least, oh, say, about 2 million years, so any martial art is necessarily the result of an unbroken tradition of that age. This is so true that an airy claim of antiquity literally contains zero information unless some specific salient feature is identified which is claimed to have taken some specific way of tradition.

One such salient feature would be high kicks. I would love to see the "antiquity" people for once present solid historical information tracing this. High kicks (viz., to the head) really seem to be an Indochinese innovation. But just when and where they can said to have been first attested I don't know. Probably because people prefer to ramble on about ancient secret traditions over sitting down and squinting at actual historical evidence. --dab (𒁳) 09:36, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a lot of this in so many martial arts pages here. The tough thing is they can often be 'sourced' to equally nationalistic martial arts books. But cleaning them up is desirable. JJL (talk) 16:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

A lot martial arts were only given verbally from one generation to the next, which makes it historically hard to make a scientific verification of a single tradition. The tradition could be 1000 or 100 years old, if there are no written fight manuals of a tradition and no other artifacts (illustrations, statues or valuable written historical material etc.), it will be sheer impossible to determine any age.--178.199.115.130 (talk) 20:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Dear gentlemen. It sometimes confuses me as a Filipino and Escrimador, how unprovable and highly illogical myths and legends can spread. There is no evidence, that a version of Escrima existed before the 17th century. Hugo von Lindschotten noted, that most warriors of the Philippines were badly trained and were no match against the Spaniards and their sideswords (most of Magellans men were killed by spears and not in close range combat, unlike what most fairy tales suggested). The very first evidence of a effective form of bladed combat lies in the 17th century, 200 years after the Spanish arrived! Von Lindschotten also described the deaths of many Filipinos by the thrusting swords and rapiers of the Europeans. Our Escrima is effective and this can be proven, but we should not make up facts and stories, because this is ridiculous. I try to tell the people, that they should use only historically verifiable informations and not ludicrous cooked-up stories.--188.61.214.157 (talk) 11:16, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Section "Cross-Training"

This section has no references. I doubt most of it can be substantiated which would explain the lack of citation. What seems correct (reference to Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do, Dan Inosanto) is also encumbered by inaccuracy.

I intend to delete it. Rather than doing so immediately I thought I'd post this intent and hope it encourages those who may know where to find credible references, to do so.

Kernel.package (talk) 00:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Blind Moro Princess

When did someone decide to write that Floro Villabrille learned from a Blind Moro Princess? The story was that she was from Samar, a blind princess or daughter of some chieftain/datu is the story we knew prior to the internet. Can anyone cite actual sources of the older Illutrisimo refuting it? Unfortunately I only know of the story that my father & his sister said about Floro learning from a blind woman, I can't remember if they said she was a princess or not. But there was mention of something else that caused him to leave and go to Hawaii. Mamoahina (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Literature

Dear ladies and gentlemen

I am posting here some German books of the 19. century, which tell the reader about the culture of the Philippines in the view of a scientist of that era. Since it is extremely hard to find some informations about Escrima, the following books could help you (Google translator should help you, if you do not understand German).

• http://books.google.ch/books?id=tKI7AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=philippinen&hl=de&sa=X&ei=OVoAUf78L-Wo4ATDsICYDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA
• http://books.google.ch/books?id=fiQAAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=philippinen&hl=de&sa=X&ei=OVoAUf78L-Wo4ATDsICYDw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ
• http://books.google.ch/books?id=_-sDAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA6-PA4&dq=philippinen&hl=de&sa=X&ei=OVoAUf78L-Wo4ATDsICYDw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=philippinen&f=false
• http://books.google.ch/books?id=HAFDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA6&dq=philippinen&hl=de&sa=X&ei=OVoAUf78L-Wo4ATDsICYDw&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAg

Please note, that these are some of the oldest existing books which mention "Escrima" by name as a martial arts style.

I wish you good luck--178.199.115.130 (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2013 (UTC)