Talk:Armenians/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Gregory and Leo V (from Divot's TP)

Leo V is of Armenian, Georgian and French ancestry, even if he wasn't he would still be relevant, the current Queen of England is of German ancestry but she's English not German. Likewise, Gregory's heritage might have been Parthian but he was not one himself.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 09:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Queen of England is of German ancestry, but she is english. Leo V is not of French ancestry, he was French.

"Likewise, Gregory's heritage might have been Parthian but he was not one himself" - Who said this?

Have you any reliable sources about Leo V and Gregory? Divot (talk) 16:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Ευπάτωρ, have you any reliable sources, who says that Gregory and Leo V were armenians as members of ethnic group? Divot (talk) 08:01, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

No response and reliable sources 5 days. Remove personalities. Divot (talk) 13:34, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Viktor Hambarzumyan's inclusion in the infobox

I strongly recommend the addition of Viktor Hambardzumyan to the infobox. He is one of the founders of astrophysics, and worked in the fields of stellar astronomy, quantum mechanics and particle physics. Some of his biggest work include the discovery that the electron was outside the nucleus and predicted the neutron before it was even discovered. His work has been been at the foundations of the quantum field theory and he developed theories for the physics of young stars and the effect that galactic cores have on the galaxy itself. Not only is this man one of the fathers of astrophysics, he is probably the most influential Armenian scientist of all time, if not one of the most influential astrophysicists ever. Tigernose (talk) 00:04, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I totally agree with you. But who do you think can he replace on the infobox? That's the hard part.--Yerevanci (talk) 17:32, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I've got nothing against half-Armenians at all, but someone whose parents are both Armenians should probably be considered more relevant to an article about the Armenian ethnic group than someone with one Armenian parent? Therefore, if Cher is there, why isn't Kim Kardashian (but, as a sane person, I recognise the uselessness of the latter!)? So, my personal recommendation would be removing Cher and adding Hambardzumyan chronologically according to his birth onto the infobox. Although I also suggest Hrant Dink's removal. Again, I'm not understating his significance, but I have the feeling he may be on the infobox because of his assassination. To be honest, I think everybody on the infobox deserves their spot, but relativity speaking - Hambardzumyan deserves his spot as much as any person on the infobox. Tigernose (talk) 02:15, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I got you! --Yerevanci (talk) 03:09, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

So why hasn't Viktor Hambardzumyan been included in the most recent version of the infobox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.222.221 (talk) 07:26, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

No idea. Why did you remove it Yerevanci? I'd replace Arshile Gorky, personally. Tigernose (talk) 19:35, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Armenians not just Armenian Apostolic Church

Why in the info box under religions is only Armenian Apostolic Church being listed? before other minority religions were in the box as well such as catholic and protestant but why is there a continual revert to delete them? It makes no sense not to list minority religions as well. There are even articles here on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Armenia. Other ethnic groups list minority relgions in the infobox on wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.67.100.74 (talk) 12:51, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of Armenians are Apostolic. It has been the national church of Armenia since 301. There are no Muslim Armenians. Hamshenis aren't always considered Armenian. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

But Catholic and Protestant minorities do exist and I believe they should be mentioned in the infobox (and seem to recall that they used to be). Jackal 15:54, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe that you are aware that there are hundreds of thousands of Muslim Armenians in Turkey. They are called Hamshenis. Why don't we add Islam too? The key word here is overwhelming. Those 5% who are Catholic or Protestant can be ignored as millions of English- and Russian-speaking Armenians are ignored by exclusion of these languages from the infobox. --Երևանցի ^talk 01:39, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

If the vast majority of Hamshenis in Turkey actually (and explicitly) identified with the Armenian ethnos then I would support the inclusion of Sunni Islam. How odd that you essentially admitted to this in your reply to the initiator of this section ("Hamshenis aren't always considered Armenian") but have argued the opposite in your reply to me. Why "can" Catholic and Protestant minorities be ignored? The key word is overwhelming–for you. Other articles on ethnic groups mention significant minority religions (as well as irreligion) and I do not understand why that should not be the case here. Jackal 03:10, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Almost half of all Armenians speak a language other than Armenian why don't we add English, Russian, French, Turkish, Spanish to the infobox?

Other articles on ethnic groups mention significant minority religions Such as? Italians, Greeks, Georgians, etc. only have the church of the majority indicated in the infobox. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:03, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we should add those languages to the infobox since the Armenians have, by the article's own admission, a "wide-ranging diaspora" and almost every Armenian in the world is at the very least bilingual. You have essentially cherry-picked those ethnic group-related articles that do not list minority religions or religious denominations, leaving out those that do (Ukrainians and Russians, for example). Moreover, I would argue that Armenian Catholics should be mentioned not only because they comprise a significant minority but also because they have played an important role in cultivating Armenian culture (see Mechitarists). Jackal 18:34, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

There are no female Armenians?

Whats with the 100% male dominated collage? 46.71.123.107 (talk) 09:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Infobox

Would you like to explain how that ugly mix of pictures is in any way better than the collage? --Երևանցի ^talk 06:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Opinion on infobox

Here's my two cents.

I suggested we add Viktor Hambardzumyan a few months ago and we added him. Where the hell is he now? Why does he keep getting removed? He should be top-priority on the infobox, yet he is not even on there.

The current list is pretty good with the exception of Cher - she's only half-Armenian and is much more distanced with the Armenian nation than the others on the list. We should replace Cher with Hambardzumyan. Serj Tankian should be over Cher any day, anyways.

The list is very strong (when Cher is replaced), however, so I can't see anybody being removed - maybe apart from Tigran Petrosian because Levon Aronian has already surpassed his achievements. Frankly, we have to pick a number to work with, there are many candidates to choose from, so some have to be sacrificed. Mkhitaryan still has a long way to go before he can get on this list.

In my personal opinion, there isn't a necessity to have a female on this list. This is supposed to be the ultimate representation of the most important people of Armenian ethnicity, not an equal-gender representation. There are many famous Armenian women, but none are more important than the current people on the infobox.

To summarise (in my opinion):

• Replace Cher with Viktor Hambardzumyan, this is a no-brainer.
• If anyone else has to be replaced, it should be Tigran Petrosian.
• Tankian, Aivasovsky and Gulbenkian are the next candidations if one is replaced

Tigernose (talk) 20:22, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm currently working on a collage that would be acceptable for all. Viktor Hambardzumyan was removed by User:Δαβίδ, while he was in my last version [1]. I totally agree that Serj Tankian is more preferable than Cher, but not Aronian over Tigran Petrosian. When did Aronian "surpass his achievements"? I don't remember Aronian being a world champion.

Mkhitaryan still has a long way to go before he can get on this list Not really. He is already widely popular among Armenians and his personal achievements (Best player of Armenia 3x, Best player of the Ukrainian championship, Best player of the former USSR countries, Most expensive purchase of Borussia ever, etc.) already give him a place in the infobox.

Well, we are not talking about an "equal-gender representation". Nowhere close to that, but of 30 notables (I think that's an acceptable number for the collage) a few should be females. Silva Kaputikyan certainly deserves to be there, not only she is one of the most famous Armenians writers of the 20th century, but also a political activist. Too bad there's no PD pictures of her I can find. --Երևանցի ^talk 02:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

What's wrong with the current form of infobox why you for college form.

Contribution of Mkhitaryan for armenian sport less than Aronians, you are talking about popularity, but when I talked about the popularity of Kardashian, you said that it does not matter.

There is already one singer of the diaspora in list. So, I suggest Jivan Gasparyan instead Tankyan/Cher. Jivan is the most famous duduk player, duduk music is a real armenian music, Jivan is very famous and his contribution is much more than singers from diaspora.--Δαβίδ (talk) 15:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

And so offer

• K.Demirchyan
• Jivan Gasparyan instead Tankian/Cher
• Remove from the list Manukyan, Tankian.

For 25

• 
  Tigranes the Great
• 
  Gregory the Illuminator
• 
  Mesrop Mashtots
• 
  Vardan Mamikonian
• 
  Moses of Chorene
• 
  Gregory of Narek
• 
  Leo I, King of Armenia
• 
  Sayat-Nova
• 
  Khachatur Abovian
• 
  Ivan Aivazovsky
• 
  Mkrtich Khrimian
• 
  Andranik Ozanian
• 
  Hovhannes Tumanyan
• 
  Komitas Vardapet
• 
  Yeghishe Charents
• Martiros Saryan
  Martiros Saryan
• 
  Aram Khatchaturian
• 
  William Saroyan
• 
  Tigran Petrosian
• 
  Frunzik
• 
  Demirchyan
• 
  Charles Aznavour
• 
  Vazgen Sargsyan
• 
  J.Gasparyan
• 
  L.Aronyan

For 30

• 
  Heraclius
• 
  Shahumyan
• 
  Manukyan
• 
  Kardashian

I also want to add that you are not very objective in the discussion. You have given an example of Italian infobox, ok, italians are four-time soccer champions but there is no any soccer player there. And why do you think that your arguments are better than mine, if enough for you to be the best player of Ukraine or singing one song on armenian in one case, and in other cases you reject all the arguments. it's not fair from you.--Δαβίδ (talk) 09:19, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know the point of this discussion. I have not heard any real arguments from you, nor any signs of compromising. We have not discussed neither Shahumyan nor Mikhail Loris-Melikov. If you want to include as many Russian Armenians, maybe you can look at Armenians in Russia and simply copy paste the whole thing to here. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Why do I have to prove to you why this or that candidate should be on the list? If you are simply rejecting all of my candidates. Why should we discuss for example Manukyan, not Shaumyan? You make up a weird list and I have to prove anything to you? this is fair? You do not have any specific criteria, you simply puts those who you like.

What are the arguments? Do you think you bring normal arguments? Of course not. One song in Armenian, Gallup polls, go to Armenian school ... that's your argument? so, I can say you that my candidates take these criteria if it can be called a criterias.--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Shahumian, after him was named 2 cites, many villages, streets, theaters in Armenia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Georgia. Famous revolutionary. It's not argument?

Loris Melikov, the author of the first draft of the Russian Constitution. One of the main leaders of liberal movement, and so on... What's wrong with the argument?

Viktor Ambartsumian, I remove him, because his photo is very very bad, that's all.

Serj Tankian, the American rocker, your arguments that he visited Armenia and song one song (spoiled famous armenian song by its rock style) is not enough.

Vazgen, I'm against him, but if you want to include him, only with Demirchian. I do not want to say something bad about him but i can.--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Just read your comments. You are simply distorting my words and picking what you want from out of context. You are repeatedly rejecting all the arguments I give. How many times I need to repeat that Aram Manukyan is considered the founder of the First Republic? I gave you academic source from Hovannisian and Libaridian. I haven't heard one valid reason (backed up by an academic source proving the opposite). Yes, Gallup polls are in fact very reliable and a very good argument to show that Vazgen Sargsyan is considered no less of a hero than Andranik. That mentality I do not want to say something bad about him but i can speaks for itself. Say it, but give academic sources with it. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:00, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm already said that you adjusts your criterias for your own candidates. Let's consider your criteria in other cases too. Manukyan is "founder", Ok, so who is Levon Ter-Petrosyan, he is too? And what is wrong with Shahumian, you dont said that we should not politicize infobox? Or not?

Gallup? but what is it? I must take this into account?

we have different attitudes to this issue, I do not know what to say.--Δαβίδ (talk) 18:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, if you want, we can add Levon, many people do consider him the founder of the third republic, however, he is much more of a controversial figure than Aram. Same goes for Shahumyan. Not all Armenians (probably the minority) consider him an Armenian activist. Well, I'm not politicizing this infobox. Vazgen Sargsyan was first of all a military commander and than a politician. He served as PM from July to October 1999. What is Gallup? It's an organization which asks people questions to see what the public thinks about this or that question. They asked people in Armenia whom they consider a hero and Vazgen Sargsyan came out first, even surpassing Andranik. Now that is a legitimate data. That is my point. If you have a survey data that says Shahuman is highly regarded by Armenians, then I have no problem. Shahumyan was only a tool for the Soviet propaganda, nothing more. Let's agree on this. --Երևանցի ^talk 06:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

We have different attitudes to this issue and that's all. For me, this is only simbolic list, and criterias should be something that a person is an Armenian, is famous, is wide-known and have a good picture in Wiki Commons. This is not a list of Armenian patriots, or armenains with the true ideology. I want to include there Armenians of different professions, different polotical ideologies and so on.

Yes, and who said that Shahumian is nationalist, he's a communist, yes, but you said that polotical ideology is not important, what's the difference he is a communist or dashnak. Not all relate to dashnaks as you. We can argue on who has made more contribution ​​for Armenian dashnaks or communists, but not here. I would not have entered into this list any politician if you have not done so.--Δαβίδ (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Δαβίδ, given the large Armenian diaspora, I see no reason why Serj Tankian should be excluded from the infobox. Jackal 13:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

And why he should be included? There is more notable and famous Armenian musicians in this list, that's why. There is already one musician from diaspora, and that is Aznavur. I put Jivan Gasparyan instead Tankyan, because Jivan Gasparyan is one of the most famous Armenian musician, but Serje is only American rock singer, who has no any connection with armenian culture. By the same way were excluded Cher and Kardashian.--Δαβίδ (talk) 13:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, name your candidates. Those you mentioned above are not very serious. What are your candidates to 25? I think we dont need to increase the list only to include there such personalities as Gagik, some of the Byzantine emperors, and of course Sirusho and so on. I think that's enough for antique personalilites two kings, three writer and one militarian in the list. Please name your candidates.--Δαβίδ (talk) 10:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Azerbaijan

See Armenian_diaspora#Population_by_country. There are at least 24 countries with more Armenian living in them than Azerbaijan without Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Taking into account the fact that most are "almost exclusively persons married to Azerbaijanis or of mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani descent" and are hidden from the mainstream society, there is no need to include Azerbaijan in the infobox. We are not going to mess this article up adding 20+ countries just to show that a some amount of Armenians live in Azerbaijan. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Azeri statistics are recognized by a minority organization as false http://www.minorityrights.org/?lid=1943. According to it, the Azeri statistics are not even remotely close to the truth (Over 85% off) and are essentially propaganda. There are basicaly no Armenians in Azerbaijan now. 216.125.48.225 (talk) 21:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

That is the case, but even if there are 30,000 Armenians in Azerbaijan (which is close to a myth), there's no need to add 20 countries to the infobox. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Being a member of a mixed family does not make you "not Armenian enough". In fact, in the Canadian census, if a person is of, say, three ancestries, he or she is registered under each of those ethnic groups. As for the priority, I find it essential to mention Azerbaijan as a country historically populated by Armenians, which certainly makes it different from Argentina or Bulgaria.

MRGI qualifies the figure "30,000" as exaggerated, but it does not provide an alternative figure and certainly does not say "there are no Armenians in Azerbaijan". This is why we have the "10,000–30,000" range, with 30,000 being the largest estimate. Parishan (talk) 21:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

10,000 is also unreasonably huge. Armenians in Azerbaijan puts the estimate at 645, which has not only likely decreased, but not one of these people will admit to being Armenian. 216.125.48.225 (talk) 21:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, 645 is the official data from 1999 census-covered areas (i.e., outside of the Armenian-occupied zone) on the people who declared themselves Armenian on the census. 10,000 to 30,000 is the estimate, which includes both ethnic Armenians and descendants of mixed marriages. Parishan (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

@Parishan: I still didn't get the answer to my question. There are more than 20 countries that have more Armenians than Azerbaijan without NK. What is the point of its inclusion in the infobox? --Երևանցի ^talk 21:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I just answered you. Azerbaijan is an area of traditional Armenian settlement; it holds priority before regions such as Argentina or Bulgaria. Parishan (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Not a valid argument. Smells like propaganda to me. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

What? Propaganda of what? Parishan (talk) 21:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Propaganda that Azerbaijan is so kind to the Armenians, when in reality all of those mystical 2 to 30 thousand Armenians live practically hiding and they are "the most vulnerable group in Azerbaijan in the field of racism and racial discrimination."

Once again, there are more than 20 countries with more Armenians than Azerbaijan, there is not a reason why Azerbaijan should be mentioned in the infobox. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Nobody claims Azerbaijan "is so kind to Armenians", and the sources provided are not Azerbaijani. In any case, just because a community is vulnerable and prone to discrimination, it does not mean that it does not exist. To your inquiry on the "20 countries" I have already answered twice and see no point in repeating myself. I am not opposed to adding reliable data from 20 countries in this article, if you must, so I do not know why this is even an issue. Parishan (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You didn't hesitate to repeat yourself, I won't either. There is no reason why the infobox should include 20-something countries, if one is so interested in the Armenians, they can go to Armenian_diaspora#Population_by_country. 2 to 30 thousand is in no way a "significant population" for a nation over 8 million. --Երևանցի ^talk 22:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

V. Sargsyan -> Narses

Narses - great commander. V. Sargsyan - small warlord and corruptionist. Divot (talk) 09:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

A "corruptionist"? I don't know where you got that word from, maybe from Russian коррупционер? He was the commander of the Armenian forces in Karabakh and the main founder of the Armenian army. I'm not going to repeat myself, just read his article through. He is considered a hero by the Armenian public too.

He never was a "small warlord", he never actually controlled any particular area by himself and his personal army. See the definition of warlord A military commander exercising civil power in a region, whether in nominal allegiance to the national government or in defiance of it. [2]. Vazgen Sargsyan was the Defense Minister for almost 5 years. How can a government member be a warlord anyway? --Երևանցի ^talk 21:18, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Consensus on infobox collage

Tigranes the Great Gregory the Illuminator Mesrop Mashtots Vardan Mamikonian Moses of Chorene Heraclius Narekatsi Toros Roslin Sayat-Nova Abovian Aivazovsky Khrimian Andranik Tumanyan Komitas Charents Saryan Saryan Khachaturian Saroyan Petrosian Frunzik Hambardzumyan Aznavour Cher V. Sargsyan

I just read the discussions above and looked through a number of other ethnic groups articles. I came to a conclusion that most are dominated by artists, musicians and people close to culture. Thus, I created another set of notables, which I hope will be acceptable for all.

• removed Levon I, Gagik I. I think Grigor Narekatsi best represents the Bagratid era and Toros Roslin Cilician Armenia
• removed Aram Manukyan, Bagramyan, Shahumyan to avoid political conflicts
• added Frunzik as one of the most prominent Armenian actors of all time
• switched Sirusho with Cher (she's the only female in the list now)

Out of 25 we have: 2 kings; 3 military commanders; 5 singers/musicians/composers, 3 painters/manuscript illuminators, 2 religious leaders, 4 writers/poets, etc. I think this is a quite diverse representation of the Armenians.

Comments

please be precise and specific

• Its not bad collage, but all of my candidates are ignored. I suggested Aronian, J.Gasparyan and A.Jigarhanyan and why they are not included? I think you can replace Ambardzhumyan and V.Sargsyan. Pics of Ambardzumyan and Toros Roslin are very bad, why do you use them?--Δαβίδ (talk) 11:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Read the section header, it says "consensus". I added both your suggestions and removed some of mine. That's what a consensus is. I already said why Vazgen Sargsyan is there. Bad or not those are the only free pictures we have. If you can find better images, please provide them. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:34, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's what we've got. Both Roslin's and Hambardzumyan's pictures look good in this form. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, you have not added my candidates. This is not my main candidates. Why do you put Vazgen in the end? Once again you have done everything as you wanted. If this is your final decision then I'll start a new discussion later.--Δαβίδ (talk) 19:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Heraclius, Cher, Frunzik. need I say more? I removed Aram, Mkhitaryan, Sirusho, Serj Tankian. Sure I did the way I wanted. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

It's not fair, I do not suppose Geraklius as the main candidate, you can remove it if you want and replace by Basil. Sirusho I think was only a joke. OK, I suggest to replace Ambarzumian by one of my candidates.--Δαβίδ (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I removed some of my candidates and included some of yours. What exactly is not fair? --Երևանցի ^talk 19:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• O recommend removing Frunzik or V. Sargsyan and replacing them with females: Melisende, Queen of Jerusalem first and foremost. Definitely the most prominent female with Armenian roots of all time. Runner ups: Zabel Yesayan and Sirarpie Der Nersessian.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Armenia public puts Vazgen Sargsyan above Andranik, what is the logic behind his removal? Dr. Ara Sanjian, the director of the Armenian Studies at the Haigazian University in Beirut wrote shortly after Sargsyan's assassination: "History will rightly remember Vazgen Sargsyan as the founder of the modern Armenian armed forces and one of the chief architects behind the victories in recent years on the Karabagh front. Comparisons made in recent days with Vardan Mamikonian and Andranik Ozanian are certainly not exaggerations in the technical sense." source --Երևանցի ^talk 19:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Friends, I do not say that your candidates are not notable, but I'm trying to include well-known personalities here, not just talented or notable. Hambarzumyan of course is talented, I can also name many other talented Armenians, but they must be be widely known too, in my opinion.--Δαβίδ (talk) 19:20, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Not everyone supports his term in office without doubting his heroic actions during the war. In addition, everyone knows about Andranik in the Diaspora while a lot of people have never even heard of Sargsyan. Having said that I don't disagree with Sanjian's appraisal.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for an encyclopedic argument from you guys. Polls show that people do in fact treat him like a hero. I don't care if people know him in the diaspora or not. This article is about Armenians, not Armenian diaspora. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:29, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

We can replace Frunzik with Serj Tankian. That's a possibility, but the user above doesn't agree. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I already wrote that in my opinoin personalities in the list besides talent or notability, should be widely known too. My candidates are widely known in and outside Armenia.

And also I want to know why you changed the infobox form?--Δαβίδ (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

What are your suggestions? --Երևանցի ^talk 19:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Jivan Gasparyan, the most famous duduk in and oustide Armenia.

Levon Aronyan, maybe the best sportsman since Soviet times.

Armen Jigarhanyan, one of the two most famous Armenian actors, but you have already selected Frunzik.

Maybe we can change V.Hambardzumyan, he is very talanted, but i dont think he is widely known outside Armenia or in Armenia too.--Δαβίδ (talk) 19:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

See, here's the main difference between me and you. I give encyclopedic sources to back up my claims (such as quotes from historians, polls, etc) while you just make statements with no basis whatsoever. How do you know that Hambardzumyan is "not widely known outside Armenia or in Armenia too"? Is it just your own opinion? --Երևանցի ^talk 19:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You mean that he is more famous than my candidates?--Δαβίδ (talk) 20:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I mean exactly what I said. You claim he is "not widely known outside Armenia or in Armenia too", do you have a source for that? --Երևանցի ^talk 20:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I have to prove why I want this or that candidate on the list only to you? Why? Why do you changed the form of infobox I do not understand it?--Δαβίδ (talk) 20:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You claim Hambardzumyan is "not widely known", so that he can be removed. If you don't provide sources it means that your statements are simply your own opinion and our groundless. Why did you change it in the first place? --Երևանցի ^talk 20:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I say that my candidates are better known than he is. I do not understand what sources of popularity you need. Gallup? Facebook? what?--Δαβίδ (talk) 20:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

@Δαβίδ. I can't take your word as a fact. I have yet to see a source from you. Sure, if you can provide an survey (which Facebook is NOT) that Kim Kardashian is popular and admired in Armenia, then add her. I gave you a Gallup poll according to which Vazgen Sargsyan is considered a hero by Armenians. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I do not understand you. I'm not talking about Kardashyan (although she is very popoulyar of course) but about Jivan, Aronian. It's not serious from you, which sources? Facebook shows the popularity I think.--Δαβίδ (talk) 20:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be the only one who isn't serious here. We already have Tigran Petrosian, what's the point of having two chess players? Again, I have yet to see a source about Jivan Gasparyan's popularity outside of Armenia.--Երևանցի ^talk 20:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

And the source of the popularity оf Hambarzumian where do you have? I do not understand why I have to prove something to you?

I can write a lot about Gasparyan. He is collaborating with very famous musicians from USA, Russia, Europe, Turkey. He received many awards out of Armenia and so on.--Δαβίδ (talk) 21:06, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Hambardzumyan is considered one of the founders of theoretical astrophysics. Blaauw, Adriaan (1997). "V. A. Ambartsumian (18 September 1908–12 August 1996)". Journal of Astrophysics and Astronomy. 18: 1–8. Bibcode:1997JApA...18....1B. doi:10.1007/BF02714847. That alone makes him notable. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I did not say that he is not notable. I say that hi is not so much known as my candidates. But it seems that only you decide whom to remove or to include there, giving the arguments which you considered sufficient or rececting the others which you dont like. It seems it can not be changed anything in the infobox without your permission. I think that other users should edit this article and template. My question is why did you put Vazgen at the end of the list, and why changed the style of infobox?--Δαβίδ (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Where should I have put Vazgen Sargsyan? He was younger than both Cher and Aznavour, wasn't he? See Italians, Germans, British people, French people. All of them use the collage style. If you can explain why we should remove or add this or that person I'm here very carefully listening to you. What I have heard from you so far are some forum-like statements. I can give detailed explanation for each and every one of the notables included in the current collage.

I'm not here to dictate my opinion, nor push my POV. If that was the case I wouldn't even be discussing here trying to find a consensus. You and other users are more than welcome to change the collage, however, you need to give encyclopedic explanations why this or that person should be there instead.

Also, you need to understand what a consensus means. It means that the final version is NOT going to be exactly the way I wanted or the way you wanted. It's going to be somewhere in between, which is the most acceptable for all of us. --Երևանցի ^talk 01:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Previos form is more preferable, because the other users can not edit this collage. They need to either create a new or revert yor edits.--Δαβίδ (talk) 11:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

It might more preferable for you and a lot of other users, but it clearly increases the level of vandalism. I'm not blaming you or anyone, but if we leave the first version virtually ANYONE can change it. I don't think we want that. Also, please understand I'm not saying the current version is perfect, no, not even close, but it is somewhat acceptable. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, if it is not perfect version then it is absolutely not clear why you do not want to change someone.--Δαβίδ (talk) 18:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

When did I say that? You wanted to replace Hambardzumyan and I gave you a clear explanation why he shouldn't be removed. At least three other users than you (myself, Eupator and Jackal) have supported the inclusion of Serj Tankian while you oppose him? May I know why? Notice that you are in minority here. --Երևանցի ^talk 01:09, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I have also clearly explained why he should not be included here. Only two users supported his inclusion, but otherwise the other user said that V. Sargsyan should also be removed as I do. So you're saying that I can not change anything here? There is no voting but discussion.

Almost the whole list is compiled by you. It is not clear what are you arguing?--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I have also clearly explained why he should not be included here when? please let me see it. This one Maybe we can change V.Hambardzumyan, he is very talanted, but i dont think he is widely known outside Armenia or in Armenia too. That's not an argument, that's an opinion.

I already stated what has changed. I removed Aram (to avoid political confrontation) and removed Mkhitaryan because he is still young. I replaced Hasmik Papian with Cher. I didn't remove Vazgen Sargsyan because 1) he is considered no less of a hero than Andranik 2)a quote from a historian stating that he is indeed comparable to Andranik and Vardan Mamikonian. I have not heard a real argument from you yet. Just because you personally don't like him doesn't mean we have to remove him, does it?

OK, let's see. As of right now you said you have a few suggestions, particularly Jivan Gasparyan and Levon Aronian. Honestly, do you really think it's right to include two chess players? Come on, that's not reasonable. As you stated above, Italy which is a four-time word champion in football doesn't even have one football player. As of Jivan Gasparyan. Who should we replace him with? Who in the current version is less notable than him? --Երևանցի ^talk 21:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Gregory the Illuminator

Armenians (Armenian: հայեր, hayer [hɑˈjɛɾ]) are an ethnic group native to the Armenian Highland. Gregory the Illuminator - ethnic Parthian, not Armenian. Divot (talk) 09:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see a source. He was from Parthia, doesn't mean he was an "ethnic Parthian" (i.e. Persian). --Երևանցի ^talk 21:09, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't mean he was an "ethnic Armenian", too. Divot (talk) 08:35, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Andranik Ozanian -> Balyan family

Andranik Ozanian "initiated the process of transforming Zangezur into a solidly Armenian land by destroying Muslim villages and tried ethnically homogenize key areas of the Armenian state". Balians family - the largest architects of Turkey. Divot (talk) 10:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Huh? Are you serious here? Andranik is considered a hero by almost all Armenians. Don't quote one episode from his bio, claiming he was a villain. --Երևանցի ^talk 21:11, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The Balian family were prominent architects of the Ottoman Empire, not Turkey. And they were ethnically Armenian so I don't get your point, Divot. What exactly are you trying to say? Jackal 05:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

"Andranik is considered a hero by almost all Armenians." - of course, but "On the Armenian side, many of the key perpetrators were the former leaders of the volunteer battalions and Turkish-Armenian 'self-defense' operations. From mid-1918, Andranik was prominent in the destruction of Muslim settlements during the purging of the Armenian-Azeri border region of Zangezur". This is a fact. Divot (talk) 08:51, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

The Muslim settlements had to be destroyed or else they would be used to destroy all of the Armenian ones. Notice how it doesn't mention civilians were outright massacred. Many were allowed to leave, but there is no doubt the Tartars wouldn't have let one Armenian baby live. If Andranik and Nzdeh had not liberated the region, Armenia would not have Syunik.

But ultimately Divot, there are no pictures of anyone in the Balyan family. They cannot be included even if we wanted to. HouseOfArtaxiad (talk) 15:59, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

@Divot, read Ataturk's article who is personally reponsible for killing thousands of Armenians in Marash. Ataturk#Turkish_War_of_Independence_.281919.E2.80.931922.29 still he is considered the founder of the Turkish Republic and is treated as a hero by Turks. Again, stop cherry-picking episodes from his bio, trying to make him look like a villain. His career doesn't start and does not end in 1918. He did what he did, we are not judges here, we should simply go with what historians say. Virtually all Armenian and non-Armenian sources call him the most famous fedayi and the best known figure of the national liberation moment. Whether you like it or not, he is considered a hero. I suggest you WP:DROPTHESTICK. --Երևանցի ^talk 16:56, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Sportsmen

The infobox does not include any Armenian sports figure. I believe that at least 4 figures should be added: Henrikh Mkhitaryan (as the best internationally-known Armenian footballer), Levon Aronian (as the world's number 2 chess player), Nazik Avdalyan (as the best Armneian female athlete and world weightlifting champion) and Andre Agassi (as a diaspora-Armenian former world no.1 Tennis player).--Zyzzzzzy (talk) 11:23, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I've just noticed Tigran Petrossian.--Zyzzzzzy (talk) 11:25, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Number of Armenians in Iran

Is the 120.000 amount truly correct?

According to the Iranian government, the amount of Armenian's are 150.000, while the Archbischop of the Armenian community and other sources claim they are 200.000.

I have seen some sources on the internet supporting these statements, but firstly I wanted to hear some opinions of other users about whether it is true or mispread bogus.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=UlaBw3MUGBEC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=200.000+armenians+in+iran&source=bl&ots=BAGkC9hfhk&sig=G4tUKxOAWT4InhPYP71xf72X2io&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=YR07U5HDMY2xPOqrgUg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=200.000&f=false

http://books.google.nl/books?id=92HP9C_BVBIC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=150.000+armenians+in+iran&source=bl&ots=ZryZmDOXYS&sig=0tqFBw5Fp-2ROU004u29ta5zWZI&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=3hs7U_HiBYyuPPqHgegC&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=150.000%20armenians%20in%20iran&f=falsem)

http://asbarez.com/59500/catholicos-aram-i-meets-with-ahmadinejad/

http://www.armeniapedia.org/wiki/07BAKU1309

http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/mai/files/2012/07/jamesbarry.pdf

http://www.geocurrents.info/place/russia-ukraine-and-caucasus/caucasus-series/the-many-armenian-diasporas-then-and-now

LouisAragon (talk) 20:14, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2014

I might be wrong but I believe that Cyprus should be added in the:"Regions with significant populations" section, as some 3,500 Armenians live in Cyprus. 62.12.74.226 (talk) 06:09, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 07:55, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Please add the armenian colonies in Argentina, we are pretty huge tho and there is like 100k people with armenian heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.164.233 (talk) 21:35, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Origin

The cited paper of Eric P. Hamp is not accessable in june 2015 and perhaps withdrawn. If ths is the reason, the (anyway daring and unproved) citations would have to be deleted.HJJHolm (talk) 09:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Armenian is NOT a "language isolate"

"Language isolate" is a technical term in linguistics with a specific meaning. It means that a language has no known relatives. There is no such thing as an "Indo-European language isolate". Once a language is demonstrably placed within a language family, it can no longer be called a "language isolate". Period. Armenian is an Indo-European language with hundreds of relatives. It can simply not be called a "language isolate" in any linguistically accurate work. Perhaps you need to actually read Armenian language, where you will see no reference whatsoever to Armenian as a "language isolate". --Taivo (talk) 11:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Of course. In Indo-Europeanist's mainstream view, it belongs to the Balkan subgroup, with Greek as closest, and Albanian as further relative.HJJHolm (talk) 09:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Infobox (2013)

Above all: This is not a standard wikipedia infobox for countries or nations. All these pictures belong to be placed into a special paragraph!!! HJJHolm (talk) 09:28, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I made ​​some changes in the infobox. If someone does not agree please write here.--Δαβίδ (talk) 16:21, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Please dont revert my edits. Some persons on this list are not very significant and well-known.--Δαβίδ (talk) 12:29, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

"Some persons" I would like to hear their names. Which ones are "not very significant and well-known"?

Also, avoid using non-free images, such as the one of Bagramyan. It will be deleted according to Wikipedia rules. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:00, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, firstly I want to know under what criterias you made ​​a list? That is your own preferences? Besides, I think that the old form of infobox is more preferred, because other users must edit it, but you.

Serj Tankian for example, he is known as a member of the group but not as a solo performer. Maybe Cher? Cher's popularity, I think is not discussed, Grammys, Oscars and so on. Vazgen Sarkisian, he's well known military leader, but his political career is very controversial. Hasmik Papian one of the 25 most famous Armenians?

Many native Armenians ignored such as Sayat Nova, Shiraz, etc. Mkhitaryan? why not Aronian?--Δαβίδ (talk) 11:24, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear David, I am open to disucssion. I never said my collage is the best and it should stay as it is, because I want it that way. No. I just made a neat collage. And I don't think its anywhere near perfect.

Cher is only half Armenian and doesn't seem to care about her being Armenian, while Serj Tankian is known as an Armenian, he talks about his ethnicity.

Vazgen Sargsyan IS controversial. Can you find any politician who isn't? Loo at his article. Gallup polls revealed that his is perceived by Armenians as a hero, eve more than Andranik (surprisingly for me!).

Don't we need some females? Hasmik Papian is probably the best candidate for now. I would like to hear your suggestions. I wanted to include Silva Kaputikyan, but I can't find a free image of her.

We already have Tigran Petrosian, putting Aronian there would be too much. Just look at Mkhitaryan's achievements. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, I want to know under what criterias you made ​​a list? Notability? Achievemnts?

The most famous Armenian surname abroad is Kardashian. why not?

You say that the two chess players is too much, but there are two singers from the diaspora. Serj Tankian is known as a member of the group.

There are no Russian Armenians here. Maybe Jigarhanyan or E.Petrosyan?

As for politicians, yes, there is no any politician of 90s who can be considered as a hero. Maybe only Demirjyan.--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Achievements, notability and their "Armenianness".

Kardashian is only part Armenian, she has no connection to the Armenian culture whatsoever.

Music is generally considered one of the main "branches" of culture, unlike chess.

I don't think Jigarkhanyan Petrosyan are notable enough to be there, maybe Jigarkhanyan, but Petrosyan no. He's completely Russified and is only a comedian.

no politicians of 90s can be considered as a hero is just you opinion. Gallup polls showed that Vazgen Sargsyan IS considered a hero. Karen Demirchyan was just a Communist apparatchik, although he was a good guy, he does not deserve to be here. Vazgen Sargsyan was the main commander of the Armenian forces in the Karabakh war.

OK, let's see. Here's my suggestion. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:19, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

• 
  Tigranes the Great
• 
  Gregory the Illuminator
• 
  Mesrop Mashtots
• 
  Vardan Mamikonian
• 
  Moses of Chorene
• 
  Heraclius
• 
  Gregory of Narek
• 
  Gagik I of Armenia
• 
  Leo I, King of Armenia
• 
  Isabella, Queen of Armenia
• 
  Sayat-Nova
• 
  Khachatur Abovian
• 
  Ivan Aivazovsky
• 
  Mkrtich Khrimian
• 
  Andranik Ozanian
• 
  Hovhannes Tumanyan
• 
  Aram Manukian
• 
  Komitas Vardapet
• 
  Yeghishe Charents
• 
  Calouste Gulbenkian
• Martiros Saryan
  Martiros Saryan
• 
  Aram Khatchaturian
• 
  William Saroyan
• 
  Tigran Petrosian
• 
  Viktor Hambardzumyan
• 
  Charles Aznavour
• 
  Vazgen Sargsyan
• 
  Serj Tankian
• 
  Sirusho
• 
  Henrikh Mkhitaryan

You say their "Armenianness"? OK, I don't think that the English-language heavy rock music of Serj Tankian has any connection withe armenian culture. Fourth place in the Eurovision Contest is also not an achievement to be in this list.

For you Demirjian is only a good guy and a Communist apparatchik, but you put here A.Manukyan? Compare the ruling of dashnaks with 70-80s. 12000km territory, poorest country, hunger, humiliating treaties with neighboring countries...A.Manukyan of course is notable politician and patriot, but contributions of these politicians can not even be compared. Contribution of Demirtchyan in the development of economy оr culture can not be underestimated. Demirchyan proved his nationalism in practice in Soviet and post-soviet period. Other politics only in words.

In the Karabakh war were many heroes and commanders such as Tadevosian, Melkonian and others. And saying that the Karabakh war was won by Sarkisian is not correct.--Δαβίδ (talk) 16:07, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

"Armenianness" meaning their closeness to the Armenians. Serj Tankian has been in Armenia, has sang in Armenian, has talked about the Armenian Genocide and at last, speaks Armenian!

proved his nationalism in practice in Soviet and post-soviet period what exactly did he do? He was against the Karabakh movement, he is often seen as someone during whose reign Armenia got into more corruption like the rest of the USSR. Please point out where I said "the Karabakh war was won by Sarkisian" as you claim. Vazgen was the MAIN commander of the Armenian forces in Karabakh. Just look at the Gallup survey results. He is buried right next to Andranik in Yerablur and people remember him as a hero.

Aram Maukian is the founder of the First Republic. No matter how small and how poor Armenia was under the Dashnak government they reestablished Armenia after centuries of foreign domination. Aram is recognized to be one of the main if not the main figure in this process. If the First Republic never existed the Soviet republic would not have existed ether. He was also the commander at the Van Resistance.

Sirusho. Again, this is just a proposal. Nothing final here. If you have a suggestion of another female just let me know. I wanted to include Silva Kaputikyan, who is the most famous Armenian female of all times in my opinion, but there are no free images of her. Hasmik Papian, Gohar Gasparyan, etc. We have to chose at least one female. I would like at least 3 for the whole collage (out of 30; 10%), but it looks like we'll have to include just 2. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:29, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Shushanik Kurghinian, Isabel Bayrakdarian, Lilit Pipoyan and Lusine Zakaryan are other possibilities. Jackal 06:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Do not agree that this is enough. All Russian and Ukrainian pop star singing in Armenian and genocide recognized by all in the Diaspora, Kardashian did the same.

Please look closely to the list of Heroes of Armenia. There almost all the military leaders and participants of the war, only one politician and it is Demirjian. So, Demirjian is the only politician who is officially recognized as a "hero". He made ​​a great contribution to the development of the economy, manufacturing, agriculture, infrastructures. There are no two opinions about Demirchian into society's.

He was named Karen the Builder. In comprasion with his counterparts from Georgia and Azerbaijan, he never licked Brezhnev's ass. During his rule prospered national culture. Yes, maybe corrupton was, but when it was not in Armenia. He was returned to politics, and soon gathered around him almost all progressive political forces and the diaspora, embarked on the rehabilitation programs. Why not include in the list such a "good guy".

As for the dashnaks and the first republic, you present the facts with a very primitive part. None of the dashnak leaders can not be considered the founder of the republic. Russian Empire collapsed and all its provinces received independent status for a short period, until their reunification. Dashnaks held some offices in the country and thats all their contribution, and how they ruled I have already said.--Δαβίδ (talk) 12:11, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Please don't compare Tankian to some "Russian and Ukrainian pop stars" who sing in Armenian for money and for entertainment purposes only. You are obviously distorting the facts. With the same logic we can include Kirkorov, who doesn't even admit that he's Armenian.

Nobody says Demirchian isn't or hasn't been loved by the general public. But as you said his contribution is in "the development of the economy, manufacturing, agriculture, infrastructures". This development crashed in the 1990s by the war and the blockade and the corruption of the Ter-Petrosyan regime, while Vazgen Sargsyan's contribution was in unification of Artsakh and the Republic of Armenia. He is personally responsible for the victory there and is the man who established the army, which even non-Armenian sources claim is the best in the region. Just look at Vazgen Sargsyan article, particularly into legacy and recognition sections.

None of the Dashnaks can be considered the founder of the First Republic, but Aram is considered such. See Google Books results. Richard Hovannisian and Gerard Libaridian both call him the founder of the republic. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:12, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I do not compare, some people like Kirkorov others like Tankian, but in fact they are not connected ith armenian culture. Tankian known as a part of the group not as asolo performer.

Oh, corruption, economic collapse, criminal war, lawlessness, these are already the problems of Ter-Petrosyan and Kocharyan. They are never has any support in society, but Demirjian has benn popular, and he won the elections, in fact, Vazgen understood it well, and then sings with him union. Vazgen was part of the government in that period. Well, he did not found the army alone, but his contribution is very large I can not deny it.

How is it? Read the history of the first republic, well, it generally can not be termed as a state, it actually is under Turkish rule. War, treaties, another war, unstable government, Manoukian was a minister, but not the founder. OK why do you think so, I do not know, this state did not have a one single founder, this is the wrong formulation--Δαβίδ (talk) 18:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

And how is Cher connected with the Armenian culture? Tankian is the most Armenian one can be living in the US. He went to an Armenian school, has been in Armenia, has talked about his Armenian heritage, etc. Also, he is not only a SOAD member, he has been on his own for years now.

Please read my comments again. I said "the Ter-Petrosyan regime". I didn't put all the blame on Levon. We both the whole system is corrupt and this is not an issue of one man.

I have nothing to add. Just see the sources. If you have anti-Dashnak aspirations, please don't bring it up here. Let's not politicize this. Aram is considered the founder of the first republic, whether you like it or not. I didn't say he is the only founder, but historians agree that he was the main founder of the First Republic. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:53, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes they are all not related to the culture of Armenia. Then you need to consider popularity. Kardashian has 13 milion likes on Facebook for example.

I say the same thing, What relations to this has Demirjian?

Im not against the dashnaks, im only not understand just how it is. Empire collapsed, the republic was formed, and where is the contribution Manoukian? --Δαβίδ (talk) 18:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't why you are keep attributing me things I didn't say. Kim Kardashian and Cher have no connection to the Armenian culture whatsoever, unlike Serj Tankian. I'm not going to repeat myself.

You tell me. I didn't bring up Levon, did I?

Have you heard of the Van Resistance? The Battle of Sardarapat? Bash-Aparan? Karakilisa? The fact that there is Armenia today is because the Dashnaks, whom the Communists called the "agents of Western imperialism". No historian disputes this. I'm sorry you are not satisfied with the results of the First Republic and and don't see their contribution. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:18, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, I say that all of these celebrities from diaspora are associated with the armenian culture almost in the same way. They recognize that they are Armenian, recognize the genocide, and one or two times visited country. Someone might be more, the others some less. so what? I propose to choose the more popular of them. Kardashian is best known armenian family outside Armenia. You say that she is not care about being armenian. Do you think that Byzantine emperor or Saroyan were "proud Armenians"? of course no. I not againstTankian to be include in the list, but then the list needs to be increased.

What do you mean? You said that the contribution of Demirtchyan collapsed in the 90s, well, yes, I agree, I'm not saying to include in the list that corrupted officials and thieves.

Dashnaks are officials, ministers and not more, that's what I want to say, you overestimate their contribution. The fact that there is Armenia today is not because the dashnaks, maybe more because of bolsheviks who saved the country from destruction. Of course I know about these battles, but you represent the facts not very well. Do you know where there were Turkish troops? 7 km from the capital, the Turks conquered the whole country, but the Armenians defeated them in Sardaparat. But they in fact lost the war, and took a humiliating treaty, which was signed by dashnak. But okay, it's not a topic of discussion.--Δαβίδ (talk) 15:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Basil was probably, because he claimed to be a descendant of the Arshakuni dynasty. Saroyan definitely was. Just read of his works: The Armenian and the Armenian, Antranik of Armenia, My Heart is in the Mountains, etc. Dashnaks are "officials, ministers and not more" and what are your beloved Communists? Any different? I'm not even going to continue this discussion. This is turning into a forum. I already gave reliable sources saying that Aram is considered the main founder of the First Republic, if you don't agree with Richard Hovannisian and Gerard Libaridian, then that's a different story. I didn't see encyclopedic discussion here. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, this is my candidates. For 25

• 
  Leo King of Cilicia
• 
  Demirchyan
• 
  Kim Kardashian, as a most famous female Armenian in diaspora

there are other interesting candidates.

• 
  Heraclius
• Sinan, armenian wiki says that he is Armenian
  Sinan, armenian wiki says that he is Armenian

I am opposed to the inclusion Manukyan, Tankian. for them list should be increased, in my opinion.--Δαβίδ (talk) 16:53, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Not even going to comment Kim Kardashian. Nobody wants to see a celebrity in the notables collages. She is already in the Armenian American article infobox. That's enough for her. Notice how the Italians article doesn't even ave Madonna, who is much more recognized worldwide than her. There are contradictary reports on Mimar Sinan's ethnicity. Look at his article. There are sources saying his Greek, Albanian, etc. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Nobody? its interesting because she has million fans, in Armenia too. many more than Sher or Tankian. Tankayan in the same list too, and it is enough. Of course H.Papyan is more talented, but he isn't known even in Armenia.--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:23, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Dear David jan, please don't turn this into a forum. We aren't discussing how many fans this or that celebrity has. She is a celebrity (with no apparent talent) who is not taken seriously by anybody. What does her location has to do with anything? Aznavour was born in France and lived there all his life. Hasmik Papian was born in Yerevan and lived there most of her life and studied at the Yerevan Conservatory. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:31, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

She is the most famous in diaspora, I'm not saying that she is talented but she is best-known. if you dont want to include her, then you should not Tankian too.--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Notability alone does NOT place her or anyone else in the collage. I already stated why Serj Tankian should be included (btw see also [3]). And haven't heard any encyclopedic argument against it. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

We have different approaches, that's all. For you to be counted as Armenian, its enough just one song, for me, no. It is necessary to consider or contribution and achivements to Armenia, or just fame. But you put those who you like more.--Δαβίδ (talk) 17:58, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

With the same logic, you oppose to include the ones you personally don't like? I clearly stated why I prefer Tankian over Kim Kardashian. Not only he is fully Armenian and is proud of his heritage, he also had concerts in Armenia (twice I think), went to an Armenian school, sang in Armenian. I don't need to repeat. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

New candidates

• 
  Frunzik
• 
  Andy
• 
  Eurnekyan

Frunzik is very notable and deserves to be there. I doubt the same can be said about the other two. What about females? We need some females. Any suggestions? --Երևանցի ^talk 18:13, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

It's clear, you do not want to include Kardashian because of sex tape.

Ernekian instead Gulbenkian, he has some business in our country.

I would suggest one of the most famous actress in Armenia from TV series [4], sorry no pictures.--Δαβίδ (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

That is your assumption. As I said above, she has no apparent talent and she is only famous for the reality show and useless stuff like that and the sex tape. If Madonna isn't included in the Italians collage, then discussing Kim Kardashian is quite silly. Eurnekian is a great man. His brother went to Karabakh as a doctor, but he is nowhere close to Gulbenkian. Eurnekian is the second richest in Argentina, while Gulbenkian was one of the richest in the world during his lifetime. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, that about Jivan?

• 
  Jivan

I suggest him, he is the most famous duduk player. Duduk music is Armenian, and not as an English rock.

As for females. There are some famous names of actresses, singers of soviet period, but they have no photos in Wiki Commons. I can offer some others, but they are Armenians from diaspora and they are not very famous.--Δαβίδ (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

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Section:: Genetics

Genetics?--Albedo ^@ 20:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The gallery of personalities from the infobox

I invite everybody to post their opinions at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#The_necessity_of_galleries_of_personalities_in_the_infoboxes Hahun (talk) 11:39, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

RfC can be found here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 02:18, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

The info being added

89MsHm, instead of edit-warring over this, can you please explain why this material should be added? Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:41, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

I checked online and the book does not exist, it is the same thing as the Zori Balayan fake book. If you search the quote it only pops up on azeri websites. The link he posted would not load on my computer. Ninetoyadome (talk) 16:42, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

The link [5] is just a Wikipedia-style biography article, and does not mention the book being cited. However, even if the book exists, it is not a suitable source for this material - it is long obsolete, is cited by no sources (indicating it has no academic significance), and was written by a non-expert. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Armenians of Brazil

An IP is removing information about the population of the Armenians in Brazil from the Infobox. I ask him to explain why here at the talk page. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:54, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Messed up statistics of the Armenians in Armenia and the diaspora

8 million Armenians in Armenia? 4,5 million in Iran? More than a million in Georgia?

These numbers definitely seem a little too high. Maybe someone could provide a link to actual statistics?Inarv4002 (talk) 06:54, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Recent disruptive edits

Seems this IP 205.209.91.171 (talk · contribs) is the IP-sock of Bzazaian11 (talk · contribs). Similar edits, similar pov. --Wario-Man (talk) 21:49, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Related ethnic groups

Aren't Armenians related to some Iranic groups like Kurds and Ossetians OR other Caucasians like Georgians? Because Armenian language influenced by neighbor Iranian languages or other historical contacts and relations between Armenians and Iranics. Zyma (talk) 13:17, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Iranian languages have influenced Armenian, but that doesn't make Armenian close to them. Armenians are not a Caucasian ethnic group either. Of all surviving ethnic groups today, Greeks are the closest relatives of Armenians. But their "closeness" is still pretty far. The fact that Armenian is a separate branch is the Indo-European family speaks for itself. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I know Armenian is an independent branch of the Indo-European language family and other notes mentioned by you. Yes, there are no close modern Indo-European speaking to Armenians, but don't you think their neighbor Indo-European speaking are related to them? Or non-Indo European speaking groups like Georgians? It's not necessary to fill that "related" field in every single article, but much more helpful if we give some info to help readers. Because many readers look at infobox as a short summary of the article. Zyma (talk) 03:10, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

From my experience, the related ethnic groups line used for cultural and especially linguistic relatives as in Jews, Germans, and some other ethnic group articles. I don't see how arbitrarily adding ethnic groups without reliable sources that me or you think Armenians are relatives of is in any way acceptable. --Երևանցի ^talk 03:37, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I only add close ethno-linguistic (same family, same branch) to the ethnic group articles. For example, we have an issue on Persians and Iranian peoples (see talk page). Some users added almost all ethnic groups from Eastern Asia to Western Europe to the "related" parameter! It's obvious that Iranic groups have contacts with considerable number of other ethnicities (from Proto-era to Modern-era), but for Persians, the related ethno-linguistic groups are the other Iranian peoples, and for Iranian peoples, the the related ethno-linguistic groups are other Indo-Iranian speaking groups. Same goes for other ethnic groups. So I hope we improve this article if we find some reliable sources for that section. Without having scholary sources, that parameter is just our personal analysis (the reason I started this topic on talk page). --Zyma (talk) 07:25, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Like he said, the only related ethnic group are the Greeks but due to Armenian Church's heterodoxy that relation is fairly distant. It's idiotic to include Assyrians or Sephardim. The only group in that field should be Hamshenis.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 13:16, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

No offense, but it's even more idiotic and rather foolish to think that Greeks are more closely related to Armenians than Assyrians are. Last time I checked, Greece is NOT in southwest Asia. Please get over this notion that "Semites" are a distinct, homogeneous race just because they speak a Semitic language. Hamshenis are an Armenian people, btw. Meganesia (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Hamshenis are Armenians. They speak an Armenian dialect. Thus, putting them into the "related groups" does not make sense. And there are also problems in the page Armenoid race. An IP and some Iraqi Christian users adding some absurd informations to the article despite the cite errors and other problems with the sources. I have opened a section in the talk page about this harassing edits that are totally pov. Lamedumal (talk) 13:59, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Armenians are not related to Persians, In the medieval ages Parthian and Armenia noble families used to intermarry but the locals were prohibited. As far language goes, the Armenian language is an isolated branch of his own In the indo European language family whereas Persian is Iranic. Culturally the former is christian while the latter is muslim. The ethnogenesis of the Armenians took place around the Ararat mountain whereas the Persians did not. It's not like they are splitted from one another there is no ethnical intersection here. The Assyrians are even further away, I cannot make any relation with the Assyrians other the religion (which is quite different from the Armenian apostolic church). The only related ethnic to the Armenians are the Hemshin people, botch ethnically as linguistic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by George 1992 (talk • contribs) 18:28, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Assyrians and Armenians cluster really close if you see them in DNA charts. Just because Assyrians happen to speak a Semitic language doesn't mean they're only closely related to other Semites. By that logic, Assyrians are more closely related to Ethiopians than to Persians or Kurds, just because the former people speak a Semitic language? This is an absurd way to distinguish people. I'm not sure why the (Armenian?) editors are so resistant when it comes to a number of editors here adding Assyrians in the related ethnic group bar. Is this a sign of superiority complex since, well, Assyrians are Middle Eastern who originated from the desert? If Assyrians were an ethnicity native to southwest Russia in eastern Europe would these people be against the idea of Assyrians being related to Armenians? Just saying. :) Meganesia (talk) 12:44, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

People, the only safe conclusion from all this debate is that the entire field in the infobox should be left out, here and in the great majority of other similar articles. This was discussed ages ago on the ethnic groups wikiproject. The entire field is unsalvageable WP:OR. The problem, as illustrated beautifully by several contributions above, is that there are simply too many different competing definitions of "relatedness": relatedness of languages; similarity of culture; political/ideological affinities; shared history; similar DNA – there are proponents of each of these definitions in this thread, each of them focussed on the notion that theirs must obviously be the only true measure of relatedness, and entirely oblivious to the others. It's not that one of these approaches is right and the others wrong. The point is that any decision about which of them to adopt or how to weigh and combine them will always, unavoidably, be arbitrary, unsourced and unprincipled and, as such, "OR". Out with the field. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 18 September 2017

In "Sports" paragraph there is factually wrong information. It says: "In football, their most successful team was Yerevan's FC Ararat, which had claimed most of the Soviet championships in the 70s". In reality, FC Ararat won USSR championship only once, in 1973 and never before or after, or during Soviet league's entire existence! Therefore, quoted sentence must be removed and replaced with "In football, their most successful team was Yerevan's FC Ararat, which had claimed the Soviet championship in 1973". See actual historical statistics of USSR Championships on Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Top_League. There are other (more official) sources, like Armenian Football Federation or FIFA, UEFA, where official statistics for all local championships for all member countries can be easily found. 24.45.226.145 (talk) 21:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Not done: You forgot about 1975. See the page for FC Ararat Yerevan. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 03:14, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 January 2018

95.67.61.9 (talk) 18:26, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

The actual total population of Armenians in the world are estimated to be from 10-13 million, however your sources show that it is from 6-8 million, which doesn't correspond with the actual numbers. Please, be kind to change the numbers. Thank you!

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:39, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Accuracy of the maps showing the distribution of Armenians

The map is clearly generously overestimating the proportion of Armenians in certain regions. Just one example. The article about the Nakhchivan region clearly says that 99% of the population are ethnic Azerbaijanis, whereas the map claims an Armenian presence of 25-50%. Because of this, I suggest discussing the accuracy of the map and establishing reliable sources for the data on which an improved map can be based. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.85.85 (talk) 11:41, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Uhm, it clearly stated that it shows the Armenian presence in the early 20th century and not today. ----Երևանցի ^talk 18:06, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Linguistic relationship

In relation to the linguistic relationship of the Armenians somebody noted, "Additionally, linguists like Robert I. Kim have noted unique morphological developments connecting Armenian to Balto-Slavic languages.[45]" This proves zero knowledge of linguistics, because there are "unique morphological developments" between any pair of Indo-European languages, attested in the special literature sind at least 100 years.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:FD2C:68BF:9869:8308 (talk) 10:01, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

The section in question is of low quality in general. Speculative and marginal hypotheses are presented on the same level as established or widespread opinions. For example, the Balkan origin hypothesis is still seriously considered, especially considering the fact that Armenian shares enough traits with other Paleo-Balkan languages to be counted among them on a purely linguistic basis by Joachim Matzinger (2005, "Phrygisch und Armenisch", in: Sprachkontakt und Sprachwandel), though Paleo-Balkan may be a Sprachbund rather than a true branch, much like the modern Balkan Sprachbund. In view of the evident commonalities between Phrygian and Greek, denial of a Balkan origin of Phrygian is downright irrational. Kim himself does not say that Armenian is particularly close to Indo-Iranian and does not suggest a Greek-Armenian-Phrygian branch – quite the opposite, he states that Armenian is not particularly close to Greek nor any other Indo-European branch, and rather must have split off from the other branches very early (though not as early as Anatolian and Tocharian)! Many archaeologists do not like the idea of a European location of Proto-Indo-European, and prefer a Western Asian homeland, but linguists have refuted that idea as very implausible. The Armenian hypothesis in particular hinges on questionable assumptions like the idea that the ejectives of (some dialects of) Eastern Armenian go back all the way to Proto-Indo-European. Naive use of genetic and archaeological data is to be avoided, as it can support all kinds of contradictory hypotheses and tends to gloss over important complications.

It is very unlikely, despite the protestations in the article, that Armenian is autochthonous to Western Asia: it is solidly part of the Indo-European mainstream (together with Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Greek, Germanic, Italic and Celtic, so even in the revised Anatolian hypothesis it would originate in the Balkans). In view of the above, the traditional hypothesis that it reached the region through Southeast Europe and did not arrive in Asia before the Iron Age is still the best one, even though Kim's observation might speak for an Armenian presence in Asia as early as the third millennium BC or so; ancient contacts between Anatolian and Armenian, for which there is some evidence, would be expected in any scenario. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Armenian hypothesis seems to be under consideration since 2015 after more DNA research data became available. Even though it is not widely accepted, it is not discarded either. Darwwin (talk) 07:25, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

To quote myself: Naive use of genetic and archaeological data is to be avoided, as it can support all kinds of contradictory hypotheses and tends to gloss over important complications. It's very much possible that distant ancestors of the Proto-Indo-Europeans originated from the Armenian Highland, which is entirely irrelevant to the homeland problem. The Armenian hypothesis is about the immediate PIE homeland, not some region of origin (for example, the ultimate, earliest region of origin of the Proto-Indo-Europeans would be in Africa, but that's an uninteresting point to make because that's the original homeland of all modern humans). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:50, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Moreover, the DNA evidence does not definitely support the Armenian hypothesis in the original form proposed by Gamkrelidze and Ivanov, which itself fails to account for the early contacts of PIE with Uralic. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:18, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

There are Armenians in Ethiopia.

Ethiopia has around 2.000 ethnic Armenians. Why is it blank on the Armenian diaspora map? BeryAb (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

Please remove Indo-European from the header, as it is linguistic .--2605:6000:1526:450B:1C58:9905:2645:BC53 (talk) 00:20, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

 Question: Should it be linked to Proto-Indo-Europeans instead? Indo-European people redirects to that page. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:50, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

 Comment: I think the request is about the complete removal of this[6] addition. I personally agree with this request by the IP, since "Indo-European" primarily is a linguistic characterization, not an ethnic or cultural one. The latter only applies to ancient groups which still predominantly displayed cultural traits which can be attributed to the Proto-Indo-Europeans based on lexical reconstructions. While Armenian is undoubtedly a member of the Indo-European language family, the Armenians are culturally firmly embedded in their historical and contemporary regional context regardless of linguistic affiliation. There are also quite plausible proposals that the ethnogenesis of the Armenians from the very beginning included a strong non-Indo-European component. So "Indo-European" is an inapt characterization of the ethnic group, unless "Indo-European ethnic group" is meant as a shorthand for "ethnic group speaking an Indo-European language". But that is made clear in the fourth paragraph in the lede. –Austronesier (talk) 07:42, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Pinging Störm. I also think that the mention in the 4th paragraph is adequate. Perhaps we could remove the word in the lead and move the 4th paragraph up to to the 3rd? ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 08:12, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Update per above. Störm (talk) 14:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 15:31, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2022 in your article about armenians, the population of armenians in the u.k. is wrong, there are around 55,000 armenians living in the u.k.(2010 census) and there is armenian apostolic church in london where most of them meet each sunday, and there are armenian union organizations in the u.k. also. make correction, please.

104.174.11.206 (talk) 10:24, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

your article about armenians, the population of armenians in the u.k. is wrong, there are around 55,000 armenians living in the u.k.(2010 census) and there is armenian apostolic church in london where most of them meet each sunday, and there are armenian union organizations in the u.k. also. make correction, please.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 14:25, 4 January 2022 (UTC)