Talk:Armenian Revolutionary Federation/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Fair use rationale for Image:Nagorno-Karabakh Coat of Arms.png

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Removal of sources

I added 7 sources to the fact that ARF is a radical party. All references are to Western neutral sources. My edit was reverted removing all 7 references, and citing the claiming that the word "radical" is not appropriate. However, WP:WTA policy does not list the word "radical" as such. Please, engage in discussion before removing legitimate neutral sources. Atabek 23:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, read the WP:WTA again.

"some words may mark tendentious or unclear presentation. Such words can, if misused, convey different meanings than intended. Poorly chosen words may subtly promote a point of view, may be unintentionally pejorative, or may simply be the products of bad style" --VartanM 00:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, from which time did the word "radical" become "some words". Even democratic parties can be radical and zealous, there is nothing wrong here. Especially if 7 neutral scholarly references say so, there is absolutely no ground to claim it's not acceptable in Wikipedia. If Princeton University Press deems it acceptable, I don't see how it would be unencyclopedic here. Atabek 01:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, clearly you didn't read the policy. Is there a point for me to give you the link to WP:NPOV as well? --VartanM 01:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Parties can even be fascist, ultra-nationalist, ... let alone be radical. Normally what would have happened is Atabek would insert the word, then someone would add a fact tag, and sources could be inserted afterwards. Atabek did here a good job inserting sources immediately, though that number of sources might be overkill. He was punished for his this deed and called a vandal by the anon (proxy?) who removed the relevant sourced info. I think we should talk about that anon whose edit (calling someone arbitrarily a vandal, removing relevant sourced info) can be considered vandalism. We are talking about a political party here, so it should be obvious what radical means. Deniz^T_C 06:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No Denizz, what Atabek did was wrong, He should of first brought the sources to the talkpage, where we could have discussed it and come to consensus. Him adding radical to the name of the political party in the lead and then complaining that it was removed was not productive at all. Controversial claims like that must first reach a consensus, before being added to the article.You can report the IP to the administrators if you wish. VartanM 07:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, please, provide a reference to WP:NPOV or WP:WTA, which claims the insertion of word "radical" with 7 referenced sources from Western publications violates any of these policies. Atabek 12:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPOV All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly and without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources). This is non-negotiable and expected on all articles, and of all article editors.

WP:WTA There is probably not a word that should never be used in a Wikipedia article. However, there is always an appropriate word and an inappropriate word, and, depending on the article, some words may mark tendentious or unclear presentation. Such words can, if misused, convey different meanings than intended. Poorly chosen words may subtly promote a point of view, may be unintentionally pejorative, or may simply be the products of bad style

Lead sections of both policies. --VartanM 15:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

POV, VartanM, why should 7 Western sources citing ARF be suddenly non-neutral point of view? Who says that? The POV that simply opposes your POV is not necessarily non-neutral, is it?

Again, there is no proof above that word "radical", the definition of ARF based on multiple Western non-neutral sources is "poorly chosen". If prominent scholars choose to use this word, which actually applies to ideology of a political party, I don't see how Wikipedia would claim it to be "poorly chosen". This is certainly(!) not a basis for removal of 7 sources. Atabek 16:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a point of view here Atabek, it is you who suddenly decided that ARF is radical. As I said to Denizz, the correct thing to do was to discuss and reach consensus first, before adding "radical" to the lead of the article. That my friend is POV.

Atabek ARF was called radical in Baku, but ARF is a global organization. Labeling them as such in the lead is not neutral. Now can you please provide the 7 sources with quotes and we can discuss their inclusion and place in the article. VartanM 16:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, for some reason I don't see you achieving consensus here prior to removal of sourced text. Please, assume good faith and be consistent. Removing 7 neutral sources from the article is POV. ARF was called radical in Baku? Were those 7 references removed here [1] from Baku? What are you talking about? ARF was established in 1890 as a radical organization, and it wasn't even close to Baku. Atabek 16:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Atabek I'm very consistent. You should read the talkpage of that article. I had no problem with that sentence. Grandmaster requested its removal. I'm still patiently waiting for you to be contractive. I ask you to present sources you're pointing fingers to other articles. Either discuss it or leave this article alone. VartanM 16:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously the ARF were radical - the "Revolutionary" part of their name indicated that. Revolution is a radical act. Meowy 22:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Meowy, they were founded in 1890. In that period most of the parties in all the region were revolutionary. Is there any other opportunity for a national-minority party in a despotic anti-human regime like Sultanic Ottoman empyre? Or do you think there was a democratic multy-partial system with its parliament and religious tolerance? Do you know how many Armenians were massacred during 1894-96? Sorry, in these conditions there werent an opportunity to found something else than Dashnaktsutiun! Andranikpasha 23:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

That may be so, but it is not the point. "Radical" is an accurate description of the ARF, and it is appropriate to use the word. I can't see how its use could be thought of as being in some way not neutral. Meowy 01:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I also think that 'radical' would be accurate here, and I don't see the point with so many references (should we make them only one footnote using < br />'s ?) Also, Atabek, please don't bring other discussions here, it won't help us in improving the article. Let's talk about the matter at hand only. If you wish to do so, you can initiate a discussion on Vartan's talkpage. Deniz^T_C 02:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe do some backtracking. I think it would be an accurate word to use to describe the ARF in its original form. And to describe certain branches of the ARF until recently. But over the years they have become less "radical" and more "establishment", so it probably would not be a suitable word to use to describe it today. Meowy 20:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Meow is right, I would also like to add that ARF is a multinational organization, they might be described as radical in one country but not other. Describing them as radical organization in the lead is POV. Please provide quotes from sources and we can decide the appropriate place for it. VartanM 21:41, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I added back 6 sources which were previously reverted and removed by VartanM without sufficient explanation. There is no need to remove sources from the article, and if this is done, then perhaps a neutrality tag shall be inserted until all references are addressed and consensus is achieved. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, those sources refer to the Dashnak party of the 1920s (87 year time-span), not the current-day party which disqualifies the notion that it "is" radical, which by itself is an ambiguous term. And you have yet to adress Vartan's explanation, nor have you even read Meowy's. Calling it "insufficient" does not disqualify his argument. - Fedayee (talk) 21:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the opinion of User:Meowy has weight over 6 references citing the nature of ARF. But if you disagree with modern definition, we may certainly cite the sources and say specifically when and why the ARF was considered a radical party. I think rather than just plain removal of so many sources (and I have even more than those 6), this may be a more compromising approach. Atabek (talk) 06:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Church split

Please double-check my copyediting changes to the section called Exile, in which I found the church split confusing. I knew absolutely nothing about this church until reading this article and subsequently Googling a bit. Perhaps another sentence or two about church background here would be a good idea. Finetooth (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The subsequent re-write has fixed this problem. Finetooth (talk) 18:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

POV

If forced to say whether the article is pro-ARF or anti-ARF, I would say pro, if only because the ARF is generally presented as honorific and working in the best interests of the Armenian people. I don't feel qualified to make substantial changes to the content, but I would suggest shortening the section called "Political philosophy and goals" by deleting the repetitions of general statements about social justice, democracy, and national liberation. This section in particular made me think of POV; it sounds a bit like a proclamation of "our goals" rather than ARF's goals as recorded by a neutral observer. Finetooth (talk) 16:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The subsequent re-write is a significant improvement and solves the problem, as far as I am concerned. Good job. Finetooth (talk) 18:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

122.105.227.78, please don't add random unsourced material unless you have a credible source behind it, thanks. - Fedayee (talk) 05:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the weasel sentence about some banner from the ARF. Seems to be an apparent attempt at trying to show that Armenians actually rebelled against the Ottoman Empire. Plus, its choice of placement in the lead is not appropriate. The lead gives a resumed information on the article and not about what some banner supposedly said, which btw does not prove anything about the party's goals or motives. - Fedayee (talk) 21:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

user:86.150.215.69, I have reverted your addition because it is unsourced. Please back it up with one before re-adding it. Thanks! - Fedayee (talk) 19:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. It show an impressive level of WP:NPOV for such a controversial issue, and is also well referenced with WP:RS, well written, structured and illustrated. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Lampman (talk) 18:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Traditional Ortography

I have a question, wouldn't it be wise to include both the ortographies of Armenian, its just a suggestion so tell me what you guys think. Also someone I think misspelled Dashnaktsoutyoun, unless I am mistaken (which forgive me if I am, I am still learning the language) its Դաշնակցություն եւ Դաշնակցութեուն the latter being Traditional, the one of the page is spelled currentl Դաշնակցութիւն, I could be very wrong of course, forgive me if that is the case T Acamapichtli (talk) 00:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure. The organization is not solely diasporan-based anymore therefore the reformed orthography can be relevant as well. Դաշնակցութիւն is not misspelled. իւ was replaced by յու in the reformed orthography. For more information, check this discussion or the Western Armenian article. - Fedayee (talk) 01:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay thanks, and yeah I just saw that with the իւն, sorry learned Eastern mostly, now trying to learn about Western too (so thanks for the free help actually lol) and thanks for not face palming on my mistake :). But yeah lemme add that then if its cool. T Acamapichtli (talk) 09:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem :-) Already added both spellings. - Fedayee (talk) 18:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

File:Arf logo.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Nazi Collaboration

I am surprised why the article has no information about Dashnak-Nazi collaboration. It is important to include it for the ARF's historical evolution.Abbatai 10:40, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

The article does have such information, including a wikilink to the Armenian Legion - it is in the "exile" section. Meowy 20:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

added neutrality dispute template

how can a racist organisation can be described as a people liberation army,there are even photographs of elements of this oganisation with chopped heads of turks massacred by this organisation,and there are many mass graves of turks in erzurum-kars etc. this page's language is worse than goebbels Girayhankaya (talk) 15:54, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Not a good start invoking Godwins Law. I didn't find the language too bad, can you provide specifics. AIRcorn (talk) 02:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Hey, things like March Days (a 1918 massacre of thousands of Azeris by the ARF in Baku) are not even mentioned at all. --Niemti (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

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