Talk:Arc (Savoie)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Arc (Savoie) —Mets501 (talk) 02:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

River Arc (Savoie) → Arc (Savoie) — Page was moved (and back and forward) to a name that is against the conventions agreed on at WP:RIVERS. Markussep 16:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support as nominator. Markussep 16:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose as per naming conventions on Wikipedia and WP:Rivers (see below). Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 17:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support - the only issue here seems to be whether we need River at all, and we don't as Arc (Savoie) is not ambiguous. (There is Les Arcs in Savoie but this is not ambiguous; neither are the various areas such as Arc 1600 mentioned in Les Arcs as each is already disambiguated by a 4-digit numeral.) -- roundhouse 00:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support. See Seine, Category:Rivers of France, Category:Rhone basin, etc. Andrewa 13:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

My reasons for thinking "Arc (Savoie)" is the best name:

• it's not usual to call rivers in France River X, unlike rivers in Britain. See Category:Rivers of France for more examples. As a compromise, maybe "Arc River (Savoie)" or "Arc River (Isère)" (the Arc is a tributary of the Isère) would be an option, this is also in line with WP:RIVERS#Naming.
• there are other rivers named Arc, including another one in southern France (Arc (Provence)).
• the brackets are used for disambiguation with other rivers, see also WP:RIVERS#Naming.
• there are no other places called "Arc" in Savoie (a department of France). There are settlements with similar names (Les Arcs, Arc 1600, Arc 1800, Arc 2000, all ski resorts), but I don't think confusion is likely. Markussep 16:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Prior discussion

From the talk page of Captain scarlet:

Hi, you moved Arc (Savoie) to River Arc, referring to a (which?) naming convention. My objections against this:

• it's not usual to call rivers in France River X, unlike rivers in Britain.
• there are other rivers named Arc, including another one in southern France.
• the brackets are used for disambiguation with other rivers.

See also WP:RIVERS#Naming. I'm reverting the move. Markussep 18:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Rivers in France are often referred to as River X. But whetever. Arc Savoir means it's a town, not a river... Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 23:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe "Arc, Savoie" would indicate a town, in order to avoid confusion we chose some time ago to use brackets for disambiguating rivers. IMO we don't need the word "river" in the title, if there are no conflicting places. AFAIK there is no town called Arc in Savoie, except for the ski resorts Arc 1600, Arc 1800 etc.. Markussep 15:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

If that project group of yours DID put in River in the article name it wouldn't have to go against Wikipedia's general naming convention of using comas: such as River Arc, Savoie. I am not part of this project, so i know or even care what its principles are, fact is the article is badly named. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 18:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what general naming convention you're talking about. Take a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)#Determine prevalent usage for instance. Bot the comma and parenthetical methods are allowed according to this. Markussep 19:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would serve both your purposes if you would name the article Arc (river, Savoie). Leaves to say the country concerned, but that is an issue currently under debate (as far as I am insofar concerned) at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(settlements). Cheers. THEPROMENADER 19:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lengthy debate about naming rivers already, let's not repeat it here. Captain Scarlet, you're welcome to expand the article, I think that's more useful than moving it around. Markussep 21:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I will repeat it. I didn't take art it your debate before and if I believe your naming convention is rubbish I'll confront it. The parenthesis is off topic since there is one administrative division, as stated in the naming conventions:

Comma method Is the place name mostly used as a full named link in other articles? Then, this entity name should be as complete as possible, with the disambiguation in comma form, ready for use in a sentence. o Format: + "ShortName, HigherDivision" + "ShortName term, HigherDivision" o This reference is unlikely to occur in the text without the "term" or without the "HigherDivision". Check all parts in the same manner as the short name. Assuming no conflicts, name the article "ShortName term, HigherDivision", and use "ShortName term" as a redirect or disambiguation page. If there are more conflicts, disambiguate "HigherDivision" using the same method.

Parenthetical method Is the place name mostly used as a short name reference in other articles? Then, this entity name should be as simple as possible, with the full disambiguation in parentheses. o Format: + "ShortName (HigherDivision, HighestDivision) + "ShortName term (HigherDivision, HighestDivision) o In many cases, most of the other references to "ShortName" are a list of related places. There is no need to indicate the complete geographic location multiple times in the text of those articles. Using the full disambiguation will make administrative divisions clear at a glance. Note: full disambiguation within parentheses uses the comma method, not nested parentheses.

River X, département. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 08:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I think your discussion method (I'm right, and what you think is rubbish) is completely out of line. If you want to move something, and it's clear that it's controversial (because you're being reverted), you have to post it at WP:RM. What is said in the naming conventions is not pro or contra your or my preferred article name. The choice between commas and parentheses in the naming convention above is about what is most likely to be shown in text: the short name "Arc" or something like "Arc, Savoie". But that doesn't matter, because we have a convention for rivers. That you didn't take part in the discussion doesn't mean you can simply ignore it. If you want to start a new discussion, do so in the appropriate places. Markussep 16:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

As stated in the conventions on naming I cited above (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places)): shortName term (HigherDivision, HighestDivision) is not applicable, ShortName (HigherDivision, HighestDivision) is not applicable, ShortName, HigherDivision is applicable, ShortName term, HigherDivision is applicable and since Assuming no conflicts, name the article ShortName term, HigherDivision which is the case as the river has one name only.

Secondly, which also goes my way, from the WP:Rivers page itself (WP:RIVERS#Naming): River articles may be named "X", "X River", or "River X", depending on location and most common usage. we have this. X river" and "X (river)" are not recommended. is proposed by Markussep yet is not condolned by the Project he said disagrees with the convention I adhere to. Further explaination exist but are off-topic in this case. The only course od action since rivers in France are, in spoken language, generally referred to with river in front (as is in English) or simply without (which could only serve as creating an artificial disambiguation). Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 17:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This simply is not true. If it were so, Bonneville-sur-Arc would be Bonneville-sur-rivière-Arc or something like that. As far as I know, and I've been in France many times, rivers are usually referred to without "fleuve" or "rivière", but that doesn't really matter for English wikipedia. Then there's the difference between British usage (River Thames, River Dee etc.) and American usage (Potomac River, Missouri River etc.). For France and many other countries, the usual article name is simply the river name, without term. If disambiguation is needed (as many departments in France are named after rivers), we use X River. I would prefer X (river) in those cases, but this is what we agreed upon. I don't understand what you mean with "yet is not condolned by the Project he said disagrees with the convention I adhere to." Markussep 23:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

there is little point of having this pantomime debate as the decision to move it has already been taken. whether I quote naming conventions or not the page will be moved back. Your arguments Markussep and you're making a molery of them by trying to introduce absurd solutions such as Bonneville-sur-Arc would be Bonneville-sur-rivière-Arc or something like that. If I've quoted French naming conventions it is because I am rench and whether you having been there on holiday won't change the fact that I can assure you, river goes in front, France is France not the USA and does not put river behind. As an encyclopedia it is necessary to be clear and the river's name is rivière Arc. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons 10:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

This is completely beside the point. The river's name is "Arc", and in French its "term" is rivière, so in French you would call it either "Arc", or if you wanted to make it clear that it's a river "la rivière Arc". I totally agree with you on that, but it's irrelevant for English wikipedia. I'm not proposing to move it to Arc River, and you know that. Markussep 12:52, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.