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Talk:Arab citizens of Israel/Archive 7

< Talk:Arab citizens of Israel
Latest comment: 2 years ago by A455bcd9 in topic Minor edit request
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Manipulation of language for political/activist purposes

Latest comment: 10 years ago14 comments6 people in discussion

It occurs to me that the title of this article is erroneous. Israeli Arabs are referred to universally, by all objective sources, as just "Israeli Arabs" or "Arab Israelis" - not the cumbersome "Arab citizens of Israel". No indigenous ethnic minority anywhere in the world is referred to as "x citizens of x". Imagine how ridiculous it would sound to call Native Americans "Native citizens of the United States", or Basques in France as "Basque citizens of France". Wikipedia should not let partisans alter the use of the English language for political reasons. 92.145.206.33 (talk) 11:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you considered checking your theory that Israeli Arabs are referred to universally, by all objective sources, as just "Israeli Arabs" or "Arab Israelis" by looking for evidence that might contradict it ? It would mean that when you search google for the term "Arab citizens of Israel" you would not find a single "objective source" that uses the term "Arab citizens of Israel". Sean.hoyland - talk 12:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, that is correct. All mainstream news organizations and enyclopedias refer to them as Israeli Arabs. 92.145.206.33 (talk) 15:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. Sources like Reuters[1], Haaretz[2], The Washington Post[3], The Chicago Tribune[4], The Los Angeles Times[5], The Guardian[6], The Jerusalem Post[7], Ynet[8] are pretty "mainstream" and they are quite happy to use "Arab citizens of Israel" in their news reports, mixed in with various other terms such as "Israeli Arabs". Even Israel's MFA says "defined collectively as Arab citizens of Israel"[9] so it's not really clear where you get this idea that it has something to do with "partisans". Sean.hoyland - talk 16:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
This has been discussed at length, several times, and it is clear that this title is seen as the politically most neutral. See, for instance, Title, Requested move: Arab citizens of Israel ? Israeli Arabs, Proposed title change' RfC: Is "Arab citizens of Israel" really a "consensus term"?. Your initial premise is incorrect, and you would need to bring a weightier case in order to alter the consensus for the current title. RolandR (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
92.145.206.33, for interest, even very biased sources like Arutz Sheva[10][11] and the WUJS "Hasbara Handbook: Promoting Israel on Campus" use both Arab citizens of Israel and Israeli Arabs. As for encyclopedias, The Encyclopedia Of The Arab Israeli Conflict: A Political, Social, And Military History uses both terms, "Arab citizens of Israel" and "Israeli Arabs". Britannica uses both "Palestinian Arabs" and "Israeli Arabs" to describe Arab citizens of Israel in their Israel article. So, I would be interested to know where this notion that the term is a manipulation of language for political/activist purposes actually comes from. Do you remember what it was that resulted in you forming this belief, a book, article, web site etc ? Sean.hoyland - talk 18:15, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
It should probably be noted that a significant number of high quality academic sources see the use of "Arab Israelis" or "Arab citizens of Israel" or similar formulations over "Palestinian citizens of Israel" (or something similar) to be problematic as Nishidiani systematically documented here. Dlv999 (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
I find it very revealing the this user Sean.hoyland, who has apparently taken it upon himself to be the main policeman of this page, had a ready store of cherry-picked articles he found on Google. Not the mention the lengths he goes to, to try an explain away the ones he cites that use the "Israeli Arabs" term that he rejects, in addition to the one he supports. Anyone reading this can do their own Google search to see for themselves which terminology is more widespread..... all those news organizations Sean.hoyland listed routinely use "Israeli Arabs". But clearly we have a couple of activists/partisans here who want the eliminate what is for them, an uncomfortable reality, by changing the English language for political purposes. A sad indictment of a supposed "encyclopedia". 92.145.206.33 (talk) 22:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
That's very interesting. Do you have anything to say relating to the issue? RolandR (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
The fact of the matter is most "Israeli Arabs" prefer to be called and identify as Palestinian citizens of Israel due to their Palestinian ancestry, "Israeli Arab" is not the correct term for the high majority of the people under the label anymore. Lazyfoxx (talk) 02:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
You find it revealing ? The only thing it reveals is that a) I know how to use google and b) I like countless other people test things using empirical data, which is what I have to do everyday in the real world. It took a couple of seconds to find evidence that contradicted your statement. That's something you should have checked yourself rather than making statements that can be refuted within seconds. I'm not a activist/partisan, nor do I reject anything supported by evidence, which includes the very obvious reality that numerous terms are used to describe Arab citizens of Israel. I'm just someone who finds the dogma and foolishness in this topic area a gift that keeps giving e.g. "eliminate what is for them, an uncomfortable reality"...sources using the term "Israeli Arab" is an "an uncomfortable reality" is it ? Hilarious. Sean.hoyland - talk 02:19, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why you're getting so heated. It's not complicated. Simply type "Israeli Arabs" into Google, then type in "Arab Citizens of Israel" into Google. Then observe the discrepancy between this Wikipedia article and the rest of the world. 92.145.109.230 (talk) 18:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Not that it makes any difference, because we don't make our decisions here based on Google counts, but just out of interest I tried your exercise. The results are not what you suggest. For "Israeli Arabs" I got 415,000 results; for "Arab citizens of Israel" I got 1,100,000. And your point is? RolandR (talk) 00:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
It's wrong to repeatedly make patently false statements, statements that are contradicted by readily available evidence. This is so basic that the prohibition against false testimony is part of pretty much ever legal system and religion on the planet. So, yes, it's not complicated. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't they simply be called "Israeli Arabs"? Why "Arab citizens of Israel"?

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Shouldn't they simply be called "Israeli Arabs"? Why "Arab citizens of Israel"? Guy355 (talk) 15:00, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

This has been discussed at length many times in the past, and there are several relevant discussions in the archive. The consensus has been that, in this highly-charged and contentious issue, the current title is the politically most neutral. There have been strong, and well-reasoned, arguments against alternative titles, including against your proposal. RolandR (talk) 18:52, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Beduin self-identification

Latest comment: 9 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

PacificWarrior101 is repeatedly inserting a paragraph claiming that many Arab citizens of Israel do not consider themselves Palestinian. Using sources that do not confirm her/his assertions, s/he appears to be generalising from the statements of a couple of Druze serving in the Israeli army to make sweeping statements about all Druze. S/he is also repeatedly adding statements that, as has been noted above by myself, Zero and Guy355, are demonstrably false.

In their latest revert (which, incidentally, is a breach of the 1RR rule, which they have failed to self-revert despite my advice), PW challenges me to "bring out a source where Negev Bedouins call themselves 'Palestinian'". There are countless such sources. See, for instance, the introductory essay by Ismael Abu-Saad of Ben Gurion University in the academic study "Bedouin-Arab Society in the Negev/Naqab" published in BGU's journal Hagar: studies in culture, polity & identities, which opens with the statement "Naqab Bedouins are among the indigenous Palestinian Arabs who remained in Israel after 1948 and who are today a part of the Palestinian minority in Israel".[12] Or see the declaration by the Negev Coexistence Forum for Civil Equality that "The Arab-Bedouins are a unique Palestinian community that has lived in the Negev (Israel’s Southern Region) for centuries"[13]

I could also point to the entire life and work of Beduin Palestinian activist Nuri al-Oqbi, and the Association for Assistance and Defense of the Rights of Bedouins in Israel, though these are poorly documented online in English. In short, there are certainly sufficient sources contradicting PW's contentious edit, and if s/he does not redress their breach of 1RR then I intend to do so. RolandR (talk) 17:23, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's an argument that Israeli Bedouins see themselves as Palestinian (whenever they protest they use Palestine flags). It seems to be a no-brainer. As for the Druze serving in the army, all Druze who reach the age of 18 are drafted into the army, just like the Jews, this has been the case since 1957 (before that they could volunteer like the Muslims and Christians but weren't drafted) as a sort of pact, whether most Druze agree with that pact, I suppose many weren't happy with the change from volunteering to being drafted. Guy355 (talk) 17:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Aramean identity

Latest comment: 9 years ago23 comments4 people in discussion

PacificWarrior's additions on this subject are simply nonsense. Only a very small fraction of Israeli Christians consider themselves to have Aramean culture and to say that this new identity will encompass all Christians is a falsehood. The first source says "The change in the national registry will be by request for those Christians born into Christian families or clans and who can speak Aramaic." This is at most a few hundred families. The second source says "The decision will allow about 200 Christian families who identify themselves as belonging to the ancient nationality to register as Arameans rather than as Arabs." Couldn't be clearer. The third source is just the unreliable Likud mouthpiece IsraelHayom, which hides the facts behind the weasel words "as long as they uphold the conditions stipulated", without saying what those conditions are. Zerotalk 12:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

True, it certainly doesn't encompass all Christians, because very few Arab Christians speak Aramaic, and the option to be identified as Aramean is only possible for the latter. I suggest therefore either a new section or a statement making it clear that not all Arab Christians are or can even identify as Aramean. Guy355 (talk) 14:48, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
PW's edit also includes poorly-referenced and tendentious assertions about Druze, Beduin and other Palestinians. The fact that a few in these communities, allied to the Israeli defence establishment, deny Palestinian identity does not mean that the whole community does so. RolandR (talk) 15:01, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Druze discussion here

The Druze are a different story, they already see themselves as a people besides being a religion (one thing that distinguishes Druze from any other religion and even Judaism is that if one isn't born a Druze, one can't ever become a Druze), the Druze are spread throughout Israel, Syria and Lebanon, and their tradition is to be loyal and identify with the country they're born in, therefore the Druze born in Israel (save the Golan heights) see themselves as Israeli. Guy355 (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That simply is not true, as my many Palestinian Druze friends tell me. Do you have any source for your blanket assertion? RolandR (talk) 16:14, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

1- http://www.haaretz.com/news/elections-2009-druze-likely-to-comprise-5-of-next-knesset-despite-small-population-1.266977


2- In 2007, Nabiah A-Din, mayor of Kasra Adia, rejected the "multi-cultural" Israeli constitution proposed by the Israeli Arab organization Adalah: "The state of Israel is Jewish state as well as a democratic state that espouses equality and elections. We invalidate and reject everything that the Adalah organization is requesting," he said. According to A-din, the fate of Druze and Circassians in Israel is intertwined with that of the state. "This is a blood pact, and a pact of the living. We are unwilling to support a substantial alteration to the nature of this state, to which we tied our destinies prior to its establishment," he said. http://www.haaretz.com/news/druze-circassian-forum-israel-should-remain-a-jewish-state-1.214417

3. As of 2005 there were 7,000 registered members in the Druze Zionist movement. (As of 2007 there are around 130,000 Israeli Druze)

[Eli Ashkenazi (3 November 2005). [ttp://www.haaretz.co.il/misc/1.1054873 הרצל והתקווה בחגיגות 30 לתנועה הדרוזית הציונית [Herzl and hope in celebrating 30 (years of the) Druze Zionist movement]]. Haaretz (in Hebrew). Retrieved 14 October 2014.]

4. In 2009, the movement held a Druze Zionist youth conference with 1,700 participants. [Samar Odeh (9 December 2009). הציונות הדרוזית היא אהבת מדינת ישראל והתרומה למדינת ישראל ['Druze Zionism is the love of the state of Israel and contribution to the state of Israel'] (in Hebrew). Radio Haifa. Archived from the original on 21 July 2011.]

5. In a survey conducted in 2008, Yussuf Hassan of the Tel Aviv University found that more than 94% of Druze youth classified themselves as "Druze-Israelis" in the religious and national context. http://www.jns.org/latest-articles/2013/9/2/druze-villages-character-shaped-by-education-sport-and-loyalty-to-israel#.VGcPlENAJIE=

6. On 30 June 2011, Haaretz reported that a growing number of Israeli Druze were joining elite units of the military, leaving the official Druze battalion, Herev, understaffed. This trend has led to calls for its disbandment. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/as-more-young-druze-opt-for-elite-units-idf-fears-for-future-of-battalion-1.370372 Guy355 (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

And study, for instance, the work of the Druze Initiative Committee[14], and the countless academic works on Israel's attempts to create artificial divisions in the Palestinian community, on the basis of religion, perceived ethnicity, traditional tribal allegiance and the rest of the armoury of Western Orientalists. RolandR (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
According to an article by Samer Swaid, Secretary of the Druze Initiative Committee, "two thirds of Druze youths would not enlist if given the choice"[15] You are simply reproducing the tired old tropes of Zionist propaganda. RolandR (talk) 16:30, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

There may be groups such as the Druze initiative committee, but the evidence speaks for itself, 94% of Druze youth see themselves as Druze-Israelis. About not enlisting in the army, I highly doubt that most Israelis, Jewish or not Jewish, would want to enlist in the army if they had the choice. The Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel don't enlist in the army, this doesn't have to mean (especially in the case of the Mizrahi Orthodox Jews) that they don't see themselves as Israeli. Guy355 (talk) 16:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

You can call what I posted "Zionist propaganda" and I can call what you posted "Feminist propaganda", considering you took it from a Feminist website. Guy355 (talk) 16:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

What nonsense is this? New Profile is "the Movement for the Demilitarization of Israeli Society", and if it is feminist, then I am proud of posting feminist arguments. Are you proud of posting Zionist arguments? RolandR (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The agenda is in the name, its goal is to support the demilitarization of the IDF. What I posted isn't necessarily Zionist, I posted studies, and the results are that 94% of Druze youth in Israel identify as "Druze-Israelis", you may call it Zionist if it makes you feel better. Guy355 (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

You have repeatedly referred to this "survey". I tried to find more online; but all of the 61 links found refer either to this article or a mirror, or to an obscure website. I can find no reference on the Tel-Aviv University website, or in any other reliable site. Further, the only references I can find to a "Yussuf Hassan" of Tel-Aviv University are related to this story; I can find no other evidence of his existence, let alone to his significance, status, academic field or anything relevant to this article. In the absence of any reliable source for this factoid, forgive me for questioning the very existence of this person and his alleged survey, let alone their significance for this article. RolandR (talk) 18:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

You might try making a list of all the relevant or proposed sources, and then discuss which publications/authors constitute the most reliable sources. To the extent that the data or claims (from the sources) may disagree or contradict, then you could describe this tension within the article. My 2 cents. HG | Talk 19:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I found the source on the Israeli Druze article. Guy355 (talk) 20:02, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Please share it, then, I would like to read the actual research, including the sample size and the questions asked, rather than the interpretation on an obscure website. And please indent your comments, using colons (:), to make the thread easier to follow. RolandR (talk) 20:27, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Fine, is that good?: [1]. Though I fear that this is the obscure website, and if it is, then I'm afraid there's no link to a Tel Aviv University. Guy355 (talk) 20:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

That is indeed the very obscure website, which gives no evidence that this is a genuine report. In the absence of any reference on the TA University website to this alleged research, or even to the purported researcher "Yussuf Hassan", we cannot possibly recognise this as a reliable source for this extraordinary claim, which contradicts all other sourced information. You really will have to produce a better source before adding this claim.
And please indent your comments. RolandR (talk) 20:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.jns.org/latest-articles/2013/9/2/druze-villages-character-shaped-by-education-sport-and-loyalty-to-israel#.VGcPlENAJIE=

Source: I agree that the JNS.org link is insufficient. It's amazing how many people (i.e., internet sites) seem to think that Hassan (the school headmaster) is the author of the report. Here is the Ynet report on the study, from 2009: | Ynet article. The author of the study is Ephraim Yuchtman-Yaar, a prof emeritus at Tel Aviv University [16]. The polling was done by Migdam Research and Consulting. This doesn't make it correct, but it seems like a plausible Reliable Source for WP. Hope this is helpful -- it took some sleuthing to dig this up. Somebody could email Dr. Yaar for a copy of the study. FYI: from a 2009 version of this page:

Correction: See below for a link for the Israeli Druze data. Sorry! HG | Talk 22:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
According to the 2008 National Resilience Survey, conducted by Tel Aviv University, 43% of Muslims refer to themselves as "Palestinian-Arabs"; only 15% defined themselves as "Arab-Israelis" and four percent of those surveyed said they considered themselves "Muslim-Israelis". According to the same survey, 24% of Christians in Israel said they defined themselves as "Arab-Palestinians", 24% referred to themselves as "Arab-Israelis", and an equal number of respondents said they considered themselves "Christian-Israelis". In 2008 more than 94% of Druze youngsters classified themselves as "Druze-Israelis" in the religious and national context (the Ynet article reporting the findings does not mention self-identification as "Arab citizens of Israel" or "Palestinian citizens of Israel" as an option). [17]
Thanks for this, HG. I hunted and could not find any reliable source; how did you discover this?
However, even the link that you give does not refer to 94% of Druze identifying as Israeli. The only source for this seems to be the unsourced 2009 version of this article. Until reliable evidence is given, I will continue to oppose inclusion of this claim in the article. RolandR (talk) 21:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
RolandR, I respect your caution and adherence to WP:Reliable Sources policy. Here is the Ynet article that shows the 94% data, sorry for not including this above: [18], which should be sufficient. Here is a related link: [19]. Maybe you can help sort this all out. Let's chat and I'd be glad to share my research methods :) Thanks! HG | Talk 22:02, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, and that is more acceptable than anything we have seen so far. But I am still concerned;the Ynet article notes that the survey "included 750 Muslim and Christian respondents", but does not note how many Druze were surveyed. Do you know what the sample size was? Or do you have any link to a source which could elucidate further? This is such an unexpected and on the face of it unlikely result that I would like to see how many were asked, and what the question was. I should also note that, having carried out some of the field work for the 1973 predecessor of this survey, I would hope that the surveyors are better qualified than I was to collect such sensitive and nuanced data. RolandR (talk) 22:14, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'm not trying to edit the article, RolandR. But if I were Guy355, I might say that the burden has now shifted to you. The Ynet article is prima facie sufficient as a Source. You might be correct that there are weaknesses with the survey (e.g., sample size), but we dont want to criticize a Source based on our original research, so to speak, as you know. To be sure, there might be some good Source out there who disputes this perspective, which you could certainly bring to bear in the article. With my support, I might add. Thanks! HG | Talk 23:57, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Niqqud & Tashkil

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I've added niqqud to the Hebrew; if someone could add tashkil (harakat) to the Arabic, that would be great. EIN (talk) 20:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Mizrahi Jews Never Considered Part of Arab/Palestinian Population of Israel

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Israeli Mizrahi Jews are not usually (emphasis added) considered to form part of this population.

I have a problem with the word "usually." Mizrahi Jews are never considered to be belonging to the Arab/Palestinian sector in Israel. I suggest that the word "usually" be removed as well as the words "to form" so that the sentence would now read:

Israeli Mizrahi Jews are not considered part of this population.

--Sam* (talk) 23:57, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Clarification on History

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The "History" section contains the following:

some 156,000 [Palestinians] remained.[29] Benny Morris says

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramla, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops.[30]
Arab citizens of Israel are largely composed of these people and their descendants.

Who does "these people" refer to? It would seem to be the 156,000 referenced before the Morris quote, and if so, the Morris quote seems out of place and confusing.Jedgeco (talk) 19:56, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I've just changed the article based on this critique. --Sam* (talk) 00:19, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

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Lead section is odd.

Latest comment: 7 years ago15 comments7 people in discussion

The lead section says "Arab citizens of Israel is the Israeli government's designation for non-Jewish Israeli citizens, the majority of whose cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Arab."

  • First of all, there are three "national" group as the Israeli government likes to call it: Jews, Arabs, and "others" (Armenians, Bahá'ís, Samaritans and the large group of non-Jewish people who are not classified as part of a religion). The term "Arab citiznes of Israel" is only used to describe Arabs (including Druze, Beduin and Circessians, although not Arab, they are considered by Israel as "Arabs". I have a source in Hebrew if you"d like), not all the non-Jews in Israel.
  • Second of all, the term "Arab citizens of Israel" is not a term of the Israeli government. Do you have a source for that? As far as I"ve seen, the Israeli government doesn't have an official term for it's Arab citizens. From government sources, Arabs are named: Arab population or Arabs and that's in English. The main terms, used by non-Haaretz/Arab-Israeli sources is "Arab–Israeli".

Therefore, the lead section should be something like this: "Arab citizens of Israel or Arab population of Israel are Israeli citizens whose cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Arab. The majority of the Arab population is Muslum but also include Arabic-speaking Christians, Druze as well as Muslim Circessians, who are included by the Israeli authorities as Arabs.

In addition to that, I plan on making WP:BOLD edits to the lead which I think are not controversial like the matter above.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:24, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

If this article is no longer to be about the Israeli government's phrase then we would need to move this article to less offensive "Palestinian citizens of Israel". Sepsis II (talk) 23:39, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Not all Arabs in Israel are Palestinians. Ehm Druze, Ehm Maronites. Simple as I wrote "cultral and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Arab", it is already mentioned that most Israeli-Arabs (you gotta hate dat term) identify as Palestinian or Arab nationally. Is this a troll are you are being serious?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 23:49, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
The contents of this article are focused on Palestinian citizens of Israel, not about the few Arabs of various nationalities who have become citizens of Israel. Please be civil if you wish for others to bother discussing matters with you. Sepsis II (talk) 00:06, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
I"ll respond to your request on your talkpage. Anyway, they are defined as Palestinians by whom? Not all of them identify as Palestinians, but none can deny his at least linguistic heritage. The article discuss alot about the (inner) conflict between "Arab", "Israeli" and "Palestinian". Assuming you"ve seen the article, you know it's not an article about Palestinian citizens of Israel, but on Arab citizens of Israel, including those who identify as Palestinian and those who don't. It will be quite odd to call Israeli Druze "Palestinians".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 00:18, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Your argument is odd, Sepsis II. In addition I would request that you drop your present rather confrontational approach. Bolter is making significant NPOV arguments which you appear unable to counter. Nishidani please can we have your eyes on this. I would suggest this discussion is put on hold for the present, until other colleagues contribute. Irondome (talk) 00:40, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Sepsis II, there is a large Christian-Arabic population in Israel. That in itself is sufficient reply to your question. In addition, many of them would be offended to be called "Palestinian", and they rather be Israelis than Palestinians. Debresser (talk) 01:22, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Ah without an RFC I won't waste my time arguing against three editors who hate me and make claims that contradict the article's sources. Nishidani is more knowledgeable than I and I will defer to him. Sepsis II (talk) 01:32, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
"Hates you" Sepsis II? You do not even know me. Always deploy the H word with great care. Maybe you should develop a calm and a balanced perspective. I fear you may be one of the hotheads who, in both "camps" (I do not follow any party line b.t.w. I take each discussion on a case-by-case basis) retard collegiality here. It pains me to say it. Irondome (talk) 02:22, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Druze "arabs" do not identity as palestinian and christian "arabs" often identify as aramean. Calling them palestinian would be making a pov statement - using the plo's definition of palestinian. Like nominally they call arabized jews palestinian, but arabized jews do not identify as such.--Monochrome_Monitor 04:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

As it happens, many Druze citizens of Israel do consider themselves to be Palestinian. Notably the major writers Samih al-Qasim, Salman Natour, and Salman Masalha. RolandR (talk) 11:11, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
And no one hates you. Personally I don't like how emotionally charged you make things- that air of "righteous" indignation.
Sepsis. The reality out there may be 'hate-charged' or 'neurotic', but here we should not edit imagining, even if our private impressions suggest to us that antipathy influences much editing, that this is a personal matter. Bolter is a serious editor who addressed the talk page to make proposals, and the correct response is simply to comment on their merits using whatever sources you may find which may suggest lines for challenge, compromise or corroboration. Non-Jews in Israel are not by definition Arabs or in particular 'Palestinians': while there is a rising tendency for Israeli Arabs to prefer 'Palestinian' as a self-descriptor, it is also true that many think of this as a distinct category, 'Palestinians in Israel' as opposed to 'Palestinians' (PT and diaspora) In this case, the first point he made is correct, he cited Israeli government classifications. This is a complex matter: there is growing popularity for Israeli Arabs to prefer the self-designation 'Palestinian' to 'Arab' (also because 'Arab' in modern Hebrew has deep connotations of sloppy, slipshod behavior or work attitudes), but Israel is a legally constituted state and government, and has the right to determine what the official usage is to be, like it or not.
One point that does require clarification is the 2003 law, renewed just recently, forbidding Palestinians married to Israelis to be accorded Israeli citizenship. Clearly here one would expect that 'Palestinian' refers to any resident of the Palestinian territories, and not to Arabs who, born in Israel, have Israeli citizenship. It is, I gather, the PT Palestinians who are forbidden to live with their Israeli Arab spouse inside Israel. The laws on this are an intricate labyrinth, but here we do well just to explain these complexities, rather than allow our emotions to get the better of us.
The Druze issue is interesting. As a multinational reality, they define themselves as 'Arabs'. Within Israel they define themselves as non-Arab, since Israel has nurtured the idea that within Israel they constitute a distinct ethnic identity, and the Druze, for their own tactical political reasons, have happily accepted this, since it enables them to step outside the anti-Arab bias in Israeli legislation.
Now.There's a vignette from a Jewish-IsraeliArab/Palestinian couple that comes to mind, about the difficulties of their life as a mixed couple in Israel that is instructive. She, the Jewess, is remonstrative that the situation is impossible, that they should emigrate to Europe; he, the Arab, is more used to the complexities, and suggests she is overreacting, and that Israel offers them, whatever the problems, a better life than anywhere else. That's just one view.Nishidani (talk) 09:58, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
By the way Nish, I don't know if the 2003 law was canceled, but last April, Aryeh Deri said the Interior Ministry will give blue ID cards to 2000 Palestinian residents who married Israeli citzens and have no status in Israel apart from entry permit. There's only one source in Egnlish and it's Arutz Sheva but it cites Channel 10 so..
Anyway, Druze in Israel mostly don't identify as Arabs (I heard once that Druze soldiers are the most cruel in checkpoints in the West Bank) for obvious survival reasons. In Syria they also identify with the government, so they don't mind calling themselves "Syrian" and in Lebanon they call themselves "Lebanese". The PLO likes to treat any non-Jew as a Palestinian and the truth on the ground is much more complicated, this is why the term "Arab" is used. Indeed, as the article suggest, many Arabs (mostly Muslims) identify as Palestinians and just like Nish said, "Arab" is often a bad connotation ("You drive like an Arab") and the term "Palestinian" is something that is much easier to sympithise with and be proud of.
As for PT and soverieng Israel, the government, media and people usually refer to Muslims/Christian Arabs in Israel as Israeli-Arab or just "Arabs" and to citzens of the PT as Palestinians. (One can't deny they are citizens of the "Palestinian Authority", therefore Palestinians). Many, especially in more left-wing media refer to the Arabs residing in East Jerusalem as "Palestinians" since one can't deny the absolute majority of whom identify as Palestinians. This distinction is used for obvious administrative reasons but also sometimes by those who denounce "Palestinian violence" but do want to live in peace with the Arabs in Israel and therefore point the fire to those who live in the PT as the responsible and not those who live in Israel, of whom many are considered "loyal citizens" (pay taxes and talk little about the conflict).
@RolandR:, In 2008 a research of the Tel Aviv university (Hebrew) found out that 94% of Druze in Israel identify nationally as "Druze-Israeli" while 43% of Muslims and 24% of Christians identify as "Palestinian-Arab". In addition to that, there is a more recent, maybe more reliable study by Sammy Smooha from 2012 that says 40% of Arab citizens identify as Arab-Israelis while 40% identify as Palestinian-Israelis and 20% identify as "Palestinian-Arabs". There are two ways to read this according to Smooha, you can say 60% identify as Palestinian and you can say 80% include the "Israeli" identity. Here's the source (Hebrew, sorry)--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:06, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
So as we all see, this is indeed a complex matter, but I only reffered to the first sentence of the lead section that suggest "Arab citizens of Israel is a term of the Israeli government to define non-Jews" which is wrong, unsourced and also gives a wierd impression, As if the US would regard all non-White people as Black (that includes Mexicans, Asians etc.) while the term refer to the second part of the sentence "cultural and linguistic heritage or ethnic identity is Arab", and we can't deny Druze, Christians (with exceptions) and Muslims can be described by this. I felt like there is something behind the current lead section but it seems there isn't. I still stand behind my suggestion for the first sentence that I gave.--Bolter21 (talk to me)
I'll be away for a day or two. Keep up the good work, Bolter. It's refreshing to see editors looking widely at sources. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 13:16, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Ps. Your point about the Druze identity (Syrian, Lebanese etcv) reflects Israeli and elite community preferences, and has a curious doctrinal aspect however. Iìve had time just to find out where I got my remark from. It's Kais Firro's book, which I've used here occasionally:see here.Nishidani (talk) 14:23, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

In sports

Latest comment: 7 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In sports, can someone add mention of Eduard Meron, the Israeli Olympic weightlifter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:E016:A700:5198:87D7:7D52:EBCF (talk) 04:35, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

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Oversimplification regarding Druze identity

Latest comment: 6 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

Yes, a Pew article on Christians says "most of Israel’s Druze population also identifies as ethnically Arab", which is cited for the page saying that a majority identify as ethnically Arab. But although Pew is RS it is known for simplifications on matters of identity especially, and both Druze identity and Arab identity are complicated things, so of course the intersection of them is even more bamboozling. The mainstream view is that Israeli Druze (as opposed to say, Lebanese or Syrian Druze) do indeed of Arab linguistic and cultural traits -- as do many Israeli Jews, including even Israeli Ashkenazim who nowadays have elements of Arab material culture with some speaking Arabic for practical purposes -- but whether that makes them "ethnically Arab" is a contentious question. Of course there are many views here -- (1) "all speakers of Arabic are Arab", (2) Arabians and those descended from them are Arab, (3) Arab-speaking Muslims are Arab, (4) Arab-speaking Sunnis are Arab, (5) parts of even the Sunni populace of certain Arab countries may identify with the pre-Arab cultures to varying degrees, the more intense of which do come at the expense of Arab identity, although (6) pan-Arabism views these as all Arabs in denial and attributes it to the influence of non-Arab forces. Of course it gets worse as this is all tied up with sectarian, regional and territorial politics. I can source dump, I'm sure you can too. Here's a few that hold the alternate viewpoint that Israeli Druze do in fact have an identity that cannot exactly be simplified to "ethnic Arab" as it also differentiates itself from "Arabs" -- [[20]] [[21]] (both Lisa Hajjar and Oppenheimer do attribute the development to the Israeli state, to varying degrees) and then also this [[22]]. If we're going to have such a controversial statement on the page it would need to be balanced, but of course balance requires sourcing and more rebalancing and personally I don't want an unsightly oversourced coatrack-- so the high road is just to avoid making oversimplified statements like that.--Calthinus (talk) 16:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

You have removed a statement referenced by a reliable source, on the basis of your own synthesis of other, non-cited, sources. This is unacceptable. In addition, your latest edit appears to breach the arbitration ruling that "Each editor is limited to one revert per page per 24 hours on any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. If an edit is reverted by another editor, its original author may not restore it within 24 hours." I urge you to revert your edit, and to await the outcome of any discussion following your remarks above. RolandR (talk) 13:35, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
I will revert myself momentarily. "Synthesis" is entirely acceptable and encouraged on talk pages (unlike the mainspace-- as an established editor, I expect you to be familiar with this). I have presented many sources that challenge the oversimplistic view that the page is presenting. I will respect 1RR-- my bad, I thought 24 hours had passed, so I'm now reverting -- but please actually engage with what I'm saying rather than throwing around accusations like "synthesis" whne I have not added any such thing to the mainspace.--Calthinus (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
What appears to have happened here is that a reference was inserted to the wrong page in the source document. I have replaced this with a reference to the appropriate page in the same Pew Center report, which states that "Virtually all Muslims (99%) and Christians (96%) surveyed in Israel identify as Arab. A somewhat smaller share of Druze (71%) say they are ethnically Arab. Other Druze respondents identify their ethnicity as “Other,” “Druze” or “Druze-Arab.”" This is certainly a strong reference from a reliable source, and should not be removed. If you have other sources which offer a different assessment, you are welcome to add them - but they cannot be used to cancel out this source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RolandR (talk • contribs) 00:36, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Wrong title. Article includes non-citizens...

Latest comment: 6 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

... - see Golan Druze. East Jerusalem Arabs are also permanent residents and Israeli ID card bearers. Suggest "Arab Israeli population" or alike. Arminden (talk) 07:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

"right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services and have municipal voting rights" not supported by cited source

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

"right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services and have municipal voting rights" is not supported by the cited source. I guess it will stay that way. Keith McClary (talk) 04:50, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 2 September 2018

Latest comment: 5 years ago32 comments12 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that the proposed title does not accurately reflect the scope of the article. A new RM can be made to move this to another title if so desired. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist (talk) 16:41, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Arab citizens of Israel → Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel –

Most RS use equivalents of this term: (1) Asʻad Ganim (16 May 2001). The Palestinian-Arab Minority in Israel, 1948-2000: A Political Study. SUNY Press. ISBN 978-0-7914-4998-1.; (2) Shourideh C. Molavi (28 June 2013). Stateless Citizenship: The Palestinian-Arab Citizens of Israel. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-25407-7.; (3) Alexander Bligh (2 August 2004). The Israeli Palestinians: An Arab Minority in the Jewish State. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-135-76078-6.

Our article's section on this group's self-identification (Arab citizens of Israel#Self-identification) shows the importance of the Palestinian identity within this population group, so it seems perverse for us to exclude this word from the group's nomenclature on Wikipedia. Both terms Palestinian and Arab have continued relevance amongst the group, which appears to be the reason why most RS use both.

This issue feels particularly in need of change after reading a widely reported letter published earlier today by the parlimentary representatives of 82% of this population. In the letter they described their group five times: "Palestinian Arab citizens of the state of Israel... Palestinian Arabs constitute about a fifth of Israel’s citizenry... Palestinian citizens of Israel... As part of the Palestinian people... Palestinian parliamentarians".[23]

One quick side note - this would not give us a problem with the small Arab population of the Golan (c.25,000 people who are Syrians, not Palestinians), since, as we say in the article, the vast majority of them do not have Israeli citizenship so fall outside the title of this article already.
Onceinawhile (talk) 23:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose. The proper term is Israeli Arab - which is used by more sources. Furthermore, some Arab groups such as Bedouin (who speak a totally different variant of Arabic from the farm or city dwellers) and Druze's identification as Palestinian is very much contested by many if not most members of the Druze and Bedoin community.Icewhiz (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
"The designation “Israeli-Arab” aroused great opposition in the focus groups."[24] Wikipedia is not in the business of arousing resentment in large groups of living people. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Do you want to split Bedouin and Druze out of this article? Both groups unambigously identify as Arab - but many do not identify as Palestinian (very few Druze do. In the Bedouin community its complicated and variable (time, different groups within).Icewhiz (talk) 17:44, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
Bedouin survey: “The most common choice was "Palestinian Arab" (33%), followed by "Israeli Arab" (26%), "Arab" alone (15%), "Palestinian Israeli" (14%), "Palestinian" alone (7%), and "Israeli" alone (6%).”. And Palestinian identity has strengthened further since this survey.[25]. Druze survey: [26] shows a third consider Palestinian relevant and two thirds consider Arab is relevant. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
So... 54% of Bedouin call themselves Palestinian. This does not mean they are all Palestinians. --Calthinus (talk) 00:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Correct, more call themselves Palestinian than call themselves Arab. Hence why "Palestinian Arab" is the popular choice for a middle ground. Our article should not use the minority position, as it currently does. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:21, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for proving my point. Note that survey data above is for Negav Bedouin - who in recent years got closer politically to Palestinian elements. Identification of the Galilee Bedouin (a totally different group, that speaks Syrian desert Arabic) is even less Palestinian. Add to this Christians not identifying as Palestinian (a growing movement) - and the scope of this article becomes smaller and much less defined (and variable over time - as Palestinian sself identity in different groups of Israeli Arabs is variabble over time - as you yourself admit with the "strengthened further since..." claim). Arab citizens of Israel, in contrast, is a fairly well defined group.Icewhiz (talk) 03:47, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Another nonsense-laden unsourced set of claims. What do you have against the label? So far every statement you have made against it has been provably false. Now another bunch to disprove with sources (which you continually fail to bring):
Christians have historically spearheaded Palestinian nationalism and continue to do so (see e.g. the Kairos Palestine document or research at [27]). There is no academic evidence for a "growing movement" in the opposite direction as you purport, despite decades of failed government propaganda efforts to separate the community.
Galilee Bedouin are a very small community (60 thousand) on whom no such research exists, so, like the rest of your statements in this thread, your claim is entirely fictitious.
Onceinawhile (talk) 07:21, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
NPA please. I noted your cited survey referred only to Negev Bedouin - while the Galilee are a separate group (that enlists in the IDF in significant numbers [28]). Christians may have spearheaded the Palestinian (as well as other national movements in the region - e.g. Michel Aflaq of the Ba'ath Party) national cause a few decades ago, but this has changed with the rise of Islamism as a political force in the region - and hence some local Christians no longer even identify as Arabs,[29] and growing number of Christian Arabs (and Aramean) are joining the IDF.[30] The Palestinian label is inherently political - particularly for groups (Druze, Bedouin, Christian) that are not part of the current core Palestinian group. The percentage of different local Arab groups identifying as Palestinian varies over time. In contrast - identifying Arabic speakers is easy and well defined, and is furthermore is supported by the census and concrete statistics from the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics. Identifying Arabs who choose to self-identify as Palestinians - is difficult, and relies on very sporadic survey data, with little cross-collection of data (e.g. what's the median income of Arabs who chose to identify as Palestinian? What's their age distribution?).Icewhiz (talk) 07:45, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Your statement is OR, and your two jpost articles about individual people are SYNTH. You have again failed to bring a single source supporting your earlier claims, not through want of trying I suspect, so I assume these are now retracted.
Identifying Palestinians is entirely objective with no uncertainty. The label describes those people whose ancestry is from the land of Palestine, or more specifically from Mandatory Palestine. Many of the older generation still hold their Palestine passports. They or their parents/grandparents were born in "Palestine", identifying as Palestinian is factual not political. Arab is a label of language, and Palestinian is a label of land. In this case, they overlap almost 100%.
Crucially, many of these people no longer identify with "Arab", because they perceive the label as a government tactic to dissociate them from their local community. This is no different from the choice of those in the Druze community who do not identify with "Palestinian".
Onceinawhile (talk) 09:15, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Palestinians are an Arab sub-group, and identify as such.Icewhiz (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support pr nom, Huldra (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose this would require a change in scope, which is not what is being proposed. Procedural oppose, thus.--Calthinus (talk) 00:12, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose I read the article to see what groups are talked about in this article and found out it includes Druze people. These are not Palestinians and share no culture or history with them. This can be evidanced by the main Druze article and Druze in Israel. --Gonnym (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME also like it was noted not every Arab group is identify itself as Palestinian --Shrike (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
And many don't identify as Arab, for example when given the choice between "Palestinian Arab in Israel" or "Palestinian in Israel". In a choice between identifying between your land and your language, there will always be a mix. Wikipedia should not lean one way or the other. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:26, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Early reflection: the primary counterargument which has been advanced, that people choose to identify in different ways, seems fundamentally flawed. Equivalent articles such as Italian Americans, Germans in France, Luso-Indian all focus on ancestry not identification, for precisely this reason.
If the Druze issue is the barrier, we can either separate them from this article, or create Palestinians in Israel as a sub-article. The Palestinians article has equivalent sub-articles for Palestinians in Jordan, Palestinian Americans, Palestinian community in Chile, Palestinians in Lebanon; there is no reason that Palestinians in Israel should be treated any differently. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:55, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
The Druze aren't the only barrier (Many Bedouin in Israel do not see themselves as Palestinian - which is also an ancestry / culture / language issue) - however even if we were to cut only the Druze out from this article - it would mean removing the two maps we presently have under the infobox, and modifying just about every number and percentage we have in the article (many of which are based on CBS figures - either directly or via others quoting CBS figures - and while the CBS does have Druze sub-panels in some metrics (e.g. - overall Druze population) - it doesn't have such metrics for others).Icewhiz (talk) 10:30, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
If an article about Palestinians in Israel is needed, I have no objection to it and it can even be this one if consensus is for it, as long as the Druze issue and the relevant source issue Icewhiz raised are addressed. As for Bedouin, Negev Bedouin says that one of 3 Bedouin classes identifies as Palestinian as does Jahalin Bedouin, so those should be indeed in that article, but other tribes should not (but as usual, go with what sources say). --Gonnym (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
I would support the creation of such a page separate from this one too, on the condition that (a) NPOV with regards to who is Palestinian is applied ("anyone before Zionist nation came" is one view which happens to also be a nationalist ideal, there are others, including "Christian or Muslim native South Levantine Arabic speakers who identify as Palestinian" which aligns more toward how people are treated in reality), and (b) the page should explicitly elaborate the complexities of Palestinian identity or lack thereof within Israel. The Druze and some Bedouin are not the only groups that pose a problem -- so do Israel's Maronites who increasingly espouse an Aramaean identity (in the case of Druze and Maronites, but not Bedouin, there is also some debate over whether they are Arabs at all...). --Calthinus (talk) 19:27, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
You’re right. I believe Greyshark09 knows this small community well, and has said something similar previously. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:46, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose it's bad enough that this page is not called Israeli Arabs but had to be moved to a POV page titled what it is now. But Israeli citizens who happen to be Arabs are Arab Israelis, not Palestinians. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:35, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose a nationalistic attempt to change the scope of the article - only East Jerusalem Arab residents are having Israeli and Palestinian nationality. Most of Israeli Arab community are not Palestinians by nationality, even if some people try to brand them as such.GreyShark (dibra) 06:13, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Support per nom, also the vast majority of this community identify themselves as Palestinians and have lived in Palestine for centuries why deny them the right to be called, as they want. It is not fair to strip them from their national identity. Arabs only may indicate they are immigrants from several Arab countries, which they are not. a witness from the family testified [31]. Why distinguish between those who fled in 1948 and those who remained? What's the difference between them?--Sakiv (talk) 01:18, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment - while the proposal relies on the assumption that most Arab Israeli citizens self-identify as Palestinians, this seems to be quite arguable - according to this study, in the 1990s most (54%) Arab citizens rejected Palestinian self-identity and though there has been some decline in this figure, there is quite a balance of camps among the Arab community of whether they are or are not Palestinians. In any case self-identification is one thing and national identification is a more solid argument - only 300,000 Israeli Arabs are technically Palestinian by nationality (20% of Arab Israeli nationals hold a parallel Palestinian ID). Hence, renaming this article into Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel would either change the scope of the article or impose Palestinian identity on all Arab citizens of Israel, which is clearly wrong.GreyShark (dibra) 05:58, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
A factual correction - they did not "reject" as you say. In the survey they had to choose the single term which best reflected their identity. An Native American choosing "American" to define themselves obviously doesn't mean they reject "Cherokee". In addition, the same study you linked to showed "Palestinian" being the first choice of 66% of Arab Israelis in 2001. More recent surveys show that number continues to climb. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:25, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I don't believe it is true to say that most RS do use this term though I didn't bother to check it. It is important to see if when the term "Palestinian citizens of Israel" (or any other variant of it) is used does it refer to the entire Arabic speaking, non-Jewish population of Israel. Are Druze and Bedouin people considered Palestinian according to these sources? But the problem is not with the sources. Even if the source itself is reliable, the use of the term "Palestinian" to describe the 1.6 million people in Israel whose native tongue is Arabic is clearly based on a certain national and political view. Palestinian nationalists believe everyone who is native to "Historic Palestine", i.e. the fictional borders determined by European imperialists in the early 20th century, is "Palestinian" from birth. But not all of the people who fall into this category are supporters of Palestinian nationalism (most notable examples are the Druze people who are mostly loyal to Israel and have a deep hate for Palestinians).--Bolter21 (talk to me) 08:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
Waxman, Dov (Winter 2012). "A Dangerous Divide: The Deterioration of Jewish-Palestinian Relations in Israel". Middle East Journal. 66 (1): 11–29. doi:10.3751/66.1.11. Identifying the Arab minority as Palestinian has now become common practice in academic literature. This is because most Israeli citizens of Arab origin increasingly identify themselves as Palestinian, and most Arab NGOs and political parties in Israel use the label "Palestinian" to describe the identity of the Arab minority. My use of the term "Palestinian is in accordance with the self-identification of the majority of the Arab community in Israel.
Onceinawhile (talk) 08:25, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
"Common practice" does not mean NPOV. Even of all reliable sources use "Palestinian" to describe the Arabs of Israel, it would still be POV. I checked at the Israel Democracy Institute and among Arabs, only 14% answered the question "I see myself as mostly..." with "Palestinian, while 10% answered "Israeli", 39% answered "Arab", 34% answered with their religion ("Muslim/Christian/Druze") and 3% with something else. In 2008, 24% ansered with "Palestinian", which means the Palestinian identity is rising in Israel. The main identity among the Arabs in Israel today (2017) is the religious one. The report stated the Syrian and Iraqi civil wars as a possible reason. In 2008 the main identity was "Arab", with 45%. No Druze sees himself as Palestinian. But one thing is common for all of them, they are Arabs.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 14:35, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Highly inappropriate and not NPOV. Number 57 09:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Definition

Latest comment: 5 years ago20 comments4 people in discussion

Currently the lead says that "Arab citizens of Israel or Arab Israelis are Israeli citizens whose primary language or linguistic heritage is Arabic". Note that the sentence is not sourced. The intention of the article is clearly to refer to Israeli citizens who are ethnically Arab (Bedouin, Fellahin, Madani classes, Druze Arabs and the Christian Arab minority); this definition certainly excludes Aramean and Assyrian Christians and Jews whose cultural heritage is Arabic by language. This is quite notable because about 11,000 Arabic-speaking Christians are not Arabs and nearly a million Arabic-speaking Jews are not Arabs as well by mainstream views and self-identification. This requires to change the opening sentence into something more clear and specific. Please note that in a related case there has been a discussion at the Arab Christians article and there was a consensus that "Arabic-speaking Christians" is way too vague for the content of that article.GreyShark (dibra) 21:05, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I've gone ahead and changed it to "are Israeli citizens who are ethnically Arab". Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 02:30, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Palestinians are not "ethnically Arab", with "Arab" as an ethnicity meaning of or related to the people of the Arabian peninsula. The definition may need changing (it should just be Palestinian citizens of Israel tbh), but this new change is not an improvement. nableezy - 05:44, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
"with "Arab" as an ethnicity meaning of or related to the people of the Arabian peninsula", citation needed, the Arab article does no specify this. Nor does Arab world. "it should just be Palestinian citizens of Israel tbh", this is addressed in the article, there are Arab citizens of Israel that reject the Palestinian label. I'll wait for @Greyshark09: to chime in before doing anything else to the article, but I'm pretty sure you have no idea what you are doing. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 05:52, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Because the Arabs article covers more than an ethnicity, it covers a panethnicity that spans a geographical area and includes several distinct ethnic groups. The Palestinians are a group that have been Arabized, i.e. they have culturally and linguistically adopted an Arab identity, much like the Egyptians, but they are not ethnic Arabs, again, much like the Egyptians. The article Palestinians covers this well. Sources are:
  • Dowty, Alan (2008). Israel/Palestine. London, UK: Polity. p. 221. ISBN 978-0-7456-4243-7. Palestinians are the descendants of all the indigenous peoples who lived in Palestine over the centuries; since the seventh century, they have been predominantly Muslim in religion and almost completely Arab in language and culture.
  • 'Palestinians are an indigenous people who either live in, or originate from, historical Palestine... Although the Muslims guaranteed security and allowed religious freedom to all inhabitants of the region, the majority converted to Islam and adopted Arab culture.' Bassam Abu-Libdeh, Peter D. Turnpenny, and Ahmed Teebi, ‘Genetic Disease in Palestine and Palestinians’, in Dhavendra Kuma (ed.) Genomics and Health in the Developing World, OUP 2012 pp.700-711, p.700.
As far as the "there are Arab citizens of Israel that reject the Palestinian label" there are likewise Palestinian citizens of Israel that reject the "Arab" label, or if we are being more honest about the poll results, prefer Palestinian over any other option. Regardless of that, calling them "ethnic Arabs" is inaccurate. nableezy - 08:01, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Also, your example highlighting Arab world is useful. That is indeed how Arab is often defined, but it would be much like using that to claim a "European ethnicity" that is common to all inhabitants of the European Union. Pan-Arabism has changed what "Arab" is used for, and if you are going to use it as an ethnicity you cant apply it to the wider, non-ethnic based, definition that is common today. nableezy - 08:03, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
While Arab is an ill defined modern concept (everywhere), the Arabs in Israel are indeed Arab per the common definition of Arab.Icewhiz (talk) 07:59, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes, they are Arab in the common usage of the word Arab, they are not however "ethnically Arab". nableezy - 08:01, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

@Icewhiz:, your revert is improper, and it is directly disallowed per WP:ONUS. This new change requires consensus. You have repeatedly used WP:BURDEN to tell others not to revert without consensus, I welcome some consistency in your actions to your words. nableezy - 08:05, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

As you agree they are Arab per the definition of Arab, and are chanllenging "ethnically" - I have removed "ethnically" in the spirit of compromise.Icewhiz (talk) 08:09, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
And by doing that you have made the first sentence say "Arab citizens of Israel ... are Israeli citizens who are Arabs". You think thats an improvement? nableezy - 08:10, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
It is factually accurate. I will note that Bedouin in the south of Israel are ethnic Arabian per most. Avoiding defining Arab in this article, given this is a complex topic, may be prudent. In terms of legal Israeli designation, the listing is by Arab nationality.Icewhiz (talk) 08:15, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
lol factually accurate. You wrote a truism, not a definition. Yes, the Bedouin are ethnically Arab. That is a minority of the Palestinians though. nableezy - 08:23, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
I see the problem now, there is an Arab identity, Arab ethnicity, and Arab culture, with a lot of overlap. Can we agree that the first line should say either "are culturally Arab" (note the piped link) or maybe "identify with the Arab identity". Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 21:19, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Arab nationality would be simpler, and match the legal definition here.Icewhiz (talk) 21:33, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm confused, "nationality" is a relationship between a person and a state. Which state do Arab nationals belong to? Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 03:28, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
National in the other sense - the ethnic/cultural sense - as in Arab nationalism.Icewhiz (talk) 04:23, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Oh like Arab world, Pan-Arabism, etc. Hm. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 08:38, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Yes that is in fact the problem. Im hoping you no longer maintain [you are] pretty sure [I] have no idea what [I am] doing. nableezy - 18:38, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Still sore on that I see. I apologize. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[ᴛ] 11:48, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

"Arab political parties have never joined a government coalition"

Latest comment: 5 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

This is contradicted by referenced material within the Cooperation and Brotherhood page which states: Cooperation and Brotherhood was "part of all three coalition governments during the fifth Knesset", among other instances. Have I misunderstood and both statements are true? Or, is one wrong? Jyg (talk) 08:13, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

It was part of the coalition, but it wasn't in the government (no ministers). Raleb Majadele was in the government, but was in Labor. I will note that the cited source (JTA) - doesn't support this either (it does say few - not never). Icewhiz (talk) 09:12, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
The Cooperation and Brotherhood article is poorly written. It was not a political party put a satellite list. I fixed its lede in this edit a few years ago, but the rest of the article was never corrected.
Sources for the statement include the following:
Jerusalem Post: "...join the coalition, which no Arab party has ever done"; Haaretz: "While no Arab party has ever joined the government"; Identity, Grievances, and Political Action: Recent Evidence from the Palestinian Community in Israel, International Political Science Review: "no Arab party has ever been part of an Israeli government coalition"; Freedom House: "No Arab party has ever been formally included in a governing coalition"
Onceinawhile (talk) 22:58, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
satellite lists are a type of political party.Icewhiz (talk) 04:49, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
@Icewhiz: can you source that? Onceinawhile (talk) 08:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
It is self evident in the definition of Bloc party (politics) - in Hebrew - "מפלגת לווין" (satellite party). Sure - you can source quite easily that each and every satellite list was registered in the registrar as a political party and stood in the elections as a separate legal party. The term "satellite list" is a pejorative (applied by some - by the way - during the 50s to the National Religious Party as well , and following the 90s to the two (now one) Israeli-Russian lists) for a political party that doesn't really function as an independent political party (but is subservient to political bloc/paren party). Icewhiz (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
But if I must provide a source for this rather obvious definition - Jews in Israel: Contemporary Social and Cultural Patterns, page 356 - ".... gradual decline in the electoral power of the Satellite lists, (i.e., smaller parties that align with a large party to form a bloc) until their final demise in the elections of 1984. The votes that had previously been given to those parties went either to Zionist parties or to the Communisty Party and the newly formed Arab national parties. Icewhiz (talk) 10:05, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Just realized this has been discussed before at Talk:Israel/Archive_41#Question_1:_Arab_parties_in_coalition_governments
Onceinawhile (talk) 13:26, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
A while ago. I would suggest phrasing as something other than never which may be technically inaccurate per @Jyg:'s comment above. You can say nearly the same thing without never (e.g. I think the number of Arab ministers (whether in or outside an Arab political party) are a better measure). Icewhiz (talk) 14:54, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

This was discussed in detail by leading Israeli sociologist Shmuel Eisenstadt, who wrote in 1965: "There is the old 'paternalist' participation, evinced in the Arab lists close to Mapai, which are essentially a parliamentary device established to catch the Arab vote with the help of the government machine. Two or three lists exist at most elections and take into account the personal and family feuds and communal divisions of their electorate. The methods applied to the vote catching are a combination of pressure (often through the military government) or of favours - such as permits, jobs, licences, and land leases - being granted. The wealthier elements of the community who have many dealings with the authorities and therefore usually find it expedient to co-operate. These lists are more concerned with avoiding the possible consequences of 'wrong' votes than they are with any attempts to change the regime".[1] RolandR (talk) 21:00, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Eisenstadt, S.N. (1967). Israeli Society. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson. p. 402. ISBN 0297760785.

Information needs to be updated - "Representation in the Knesset"

Latest comment: 5 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The text states "According to a study commissioned by the Arab Association of Human Rights entitled "Silencing Dissent," over the past three years, eight of nine of these Arab Knesset members have been beaten by Israeli forces during demonstrations.[166] Most recently according to the report, legislation has been passed, including three election laws [e.g., banning political parties], and two Knesset related laws aimed to "significantly curb the minority [Arab population] right to choose a public representative and for those representatives to develop independent political platforms and carry out their duties".[167]"

I clicked on the source this morning and found that the aforementioned study was written in 2002, so it should say "between 1999-2002, eight of nine..."

Here is the link to the study: Silencing Dissent

This is my first time requesting a change in Wikipedia, so if this is the wrong way to do it, I apologize.

Catronky (talk) 19:48, 10 April 2019 (UTC)Catronky

@Catronky: Is it correct now? Do you know of a more recent study that could be cited too? Comments like yours are always welcome. Zerotalk 02:50, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

"Public expressions of Palestinian identity, such as displays of the Palestinian flag or the singing and reciting of nationalist songs or poetry were illegal until recently.[27]" source inaccurate

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The source contains exactly the same line, but the term "recently" is not accurate. The was a ban on displaying the Palestinian flag, but is was abolished in 1993 during the Oslo I accord. I can't find evidence for banning Palestinian poetry in particular, but there is a law against inciting violence etc., and the topic in general is highly controversial. See e.g. “Nakba Law”. I would propose to phrase it as follows: "Public expressions of Palestinian identity, such as displays of the Palestinian flag, were illegal until 1993, while singing and reciting of nationalist songs is highly controversial"

  Partly done: I struck "until recently", but a source would need to be provided for a specific end date. – Levivich 00:26, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

lead on rejecting palestinian identity

Latest comment: 4 years ago15 comments5 people in discussion

The line in the lead: A notable percentage of Arab citizens in Israel refer to themselves as Israeli Arabs, while rejecting Palestinian identity. is sourced to a source discussing a 2001 study about people choosing Israeli as an identity and says nothing of "rejecting Palestinian identity". But beyond that obvious failing, things have changed:

Indeed, one significant finding of Smooha’s data is not simply that Arab-Israeli is an unpopular option but rather that more people are rejecting the Israeli part of the identity all together. Since 2003, about 30 percent of respondents have reported that they prefer the term “Palestinian Arab in Israel.” But while in 2003 just 3.7 percent said they prefer the term “Palestinian Arab” (which doesn’t reference their Israeli component at all), in 2017 that number rose to 17 percent.

Suggestions on how to correct both the unsourced material and update it with current findings? nableezy - 02:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Findings vary in different studies. What is invariable in all of them, is that the choice of using Palestinian (mainly in non-Druze and non-Bedouin) is to a large extent a political shibboleth that indicates a political position on the conflict. Icewhiz (talk) 07:39, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@Icewhiz: your statement is offensive – it is an attempt to debase these people’s identity.
They call themselves Palestinians because they or their parents/grandparents held Palestinian passports. If tomorrow China came and took over Israel, would you call yourself Chinese? Onceinawhile (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Nab, it's worse than you say. The table in that source shows that, in 2001, 65.9% chose a "national identity definition" that includes the word "Palestinian". The current text is severely misleading even on that basis. Zerotalk 08:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

The treatment of this source is dishonest. The source quotes figures in order to show how weak is the identification as Israeli but we cite it for a sentence emphasising the opposite. Moreover, as Nab pointed out, there is not a word in the source about rejecting Palestinian identity regarding anyone at all. Zerotalk 11:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

We had a debate on this topic a few months ago. The conclusion was to create a new article called “Palestinians in Israel”. Hasn’t happened yet due only to lack of time. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I removed the now nearly 20 year old survey from the lead and updated it with the more recent findings. nableezy - 19:49, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

  • What about the most recent poll just released that actually found that 46% prefer Arab-Israel a growth from last survey and only 14% prefer Palestinian, and this survey included more people than the prior surveys? Source: [32] and I should add, this one actually cites numbers and doesn't look like advocacy journalism.Sir Joseph (talk) 02:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
If I am not mistaken +972 is not considered a reliable source around here. You think Foreign Policy is "advocacy journalism"? (and that one cites numbers too, Im not sure if we are talking about the same source here) nableezy - 02:26, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
This is the Hebrew original - [33] - which wouldn't be a RS in my view (same as +972). I can find other similar surveys. Generally - answers vary quite a bit between situations in which one asks on "general identity" (or "do you also consider yourself as Palestinian") and concrete choices - direct "would you prefer Palestinian over Israeli citizenship" polls tend to return very low results, and polls that imply this (via other questions) - also affect the identity result. Icewhiz (talk) 06:29, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Here's reliable reporting on the Sicha Mekomit poll (+972's sister site which originally published this) in JPost. Icewhiz (talk) 06:39, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Internet panel polls like this are popular because they are cheap and comparatively easy to run. Alas they are also quite unreliable and the claimed 3.5% accuracy is based on assumptions likely to be false. (The main problem is that they are opt-in and so tend to collect participants more opinionated than the general population. The results also vary in reaction to current events even with the same participants.) But that's just my professional opinion, which I acknowledge doesn't count here. Zerotalk 12:58, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I dont have too strong an opinion on this, but would we normally include polls, or surveys, by what would be otherwise unreliable sources if that poll gets covered? I dont oppose adding it based on the JPost, but Sammy Smooha is an established expert on this topic and I dont think the +972 survey means his findings, covered in serious sources, should not be included. Im sure we will be seeing a new survey from him soon, they seem to be released every other year. nableezy - 22:20, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Hadnt noticed this was removed, ive restored it. nableezy - 01:10, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Although tbh this probably deserves to be covered in detail in the body and summarized more concisely in the lead. The sections on Surveys and polls and self-identification need some work. nableezy - 08:49, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

New poll: majority self-define as Israeli, 33% as Pal.

Latest comment: 4 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

See here [34], with important nuances like the 19% proponents of "Israeli Palestinian". Please rewrite article accordingly. Arminden (talk) 06:01, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Need to be careful on using single poll - we really should be using a mix and presenting a range. The answer to this question vary quite a bit not only by time, but how the poll overall is constructed (e.g. if you imply a possible loss of nationality in a prior question (e.g. "Should Tayibe be transferred to the Palestinian state?") - you get a much higher Israeli response. Other framing of prior questions also lead to a wildly different response rates to this particular question). Icewhiz (talk) 09:28, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. A detailed table like those in the various election opinion polling articles would work well. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I would respect these considerations if they were put into practice; but they are not. Fact is, the lead quotes Palestinian-leaning opinions ONLY (Smooha & ICG), giving a very one-dimensional image. The survey presented by Haaretz and commented by Salman Masalha (neither can be considered Israeli nationalist) give following figures:

  • 46% chose "Israeli Arab"
  • 22% "Arab"
  • 14% chose "Palestinian"
  • 19% chose "Israeli Palestinian".

65% include "Israeli" in their self-definition, 33% include "Palestinian". It's almost 2:1. Simply "Israeli" either wasn't offered, or none chose it. Arminden (talk) 11:44, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

That is, simply put, nonsense. Sammy Smooha is not "Palestinian leaning", he produces the most comprehensive data on this topic and the data changes over time. Previously the numbers for self-dentifying as Palestinian were lower, and they may well trend lower again when the next version of the Index of Arab-Jewish Relations in Israel is released. Beyond that, the source survey here is discussed above, a survey by Local Call, and it isnt exactly in the same realm of reliability as the Index of Arab-Jewish Relations in Israel. nableezy - 12:58, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Outdated info

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

In the following quote from the article, "recently made significantly more stringent," should be changed to, "made significantly more stringent in 2003." This year can be confirmed by the reference [38].

"Arab citizens of Israel today are largely composed of the people who remained and their descendants. Others include some from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank who procured Israeli citizenship under family-unification provisions that were recently made significantly more stringent.[38]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerri Kohl (talk • contribs) 13:51, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

survey bias and other issues

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Surveys shown have a glaring bias. Having those reporting choose over a currently stable state over the possibility of joining a state with an uncertain future isn't a choice. Any respectable polling group would understand that, so why are they included other than to create a false conclusion. Their inclusion without opposition reporting is troubling. 96.31.177.52 (talk) 00:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Arabs Jews and Mizrahim

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

There is no mention in the article of Israelis who identify as Arab Jews or of the relationship between Mizrahi identity and Arab identity. I think these topics deserve a mention. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Passports

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Are these people allowed to visit Muslim countries? --2001:16B8:3184:3600:D4B9:84E1:AEAD:A6FB (talk) 23:38, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 August 2020

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Change “having absorbed much Hebrew loanwords and phrases” to “having absorbed many Hebrew loanwords and phrases” for grammatical correctness. Kirk Grabowski (talk) 12:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

  Done Zerotalk 12:27, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Wahid Abdel Meguid's quote

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Removed:

The Arabs of 1948 (i.e. Arabs who stayed within the bounds of Israel and accepted citizenship) may become a majority in Israel in 2035, and they will certainly be the majority in 2048.

because it's a quote from 2001 that is patently obviously false. ImTheIP (talk) 16:28, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Edit request

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The first paragraph of this section has the following text unnecessarily duplicated. Let's take a look:

In the northern part of Israel the percentage of the population that is Jewish is declining.[1] The increasing population of Arabs within Israel, and the majority status they hold in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle – has become a growing point of open political contention in recent years. Among Arabs, Muslims have the highest birth rate, followed by Druze, and then Christians.[2]

And then it repeats itself again:

The phrase demographic threat (or demographic bomb) is used within the Israeli political sphere to describe the growth of Israel's Arab citizenry as constituting a threat to its maintenance of its status as a Jewish state with a Jewish demographic majority. In the northern part of Israel the percentage of the population that is Jewish is declining.[3] The increasing population of Arabs within Israel, and the majority status they hold in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle – has become a growing point of open political contention in recent years. Among Arabs, Muslims have the highest birth rate, followed by Druze, and then Christians.[4]

I actually think the first part should be deleted, since the second time the information is repeated it starts before with a logical introduction explaining how the term "demographic threat" is used in the first place, and then it proceeds to explain statistical information from northern Israel and elsewhere.--Watchlonly (talk) 02:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

To editor Watchlonly:   done, and thank you very much! Good catch! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 03:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Jewish population in Galilee declining — Ynetnews". 12 December 2007. Retrieved 14 June 2008.
  2. ^ Statistics Regarding Israeli Arabs, Jewish Virtual Library, November 2008.
  3. ^ "Jewish population in Galilee declining — Ynetnews". 12 December 2007. Retrieved 14 June 2008.
  4. ^ Statistics Regarding Israeli Arabs, Jewish Virtual Library, November 2008.

"Palestinian-Arabs"

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The part where it says that 17% define themselves to be Palestinian-Arabs should be edited. Isabel Jeanne (talk) 00:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)


Edit request

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

To say "Arabic was until July 2018 one of Israel's official languages." is poor writing apparently designed to obscure the fact that Arabic is not an official language whereas Hebrew is. More informative would be, "As of July 2018, Arabic is no longer one of Israel's official languages." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cloweste (talk • contribs) 16:45, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Inaccuracy and Changing

Latest comment: 3 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Early in the article, it says:

"Arab citizens of Israel,[3] or Arab Israelis, are Israeli citizens who are Arab. Many Arab citizens of Israel self-identify as Palestinian and commonly self-designate themselves as Palestinian citizens of Israel or Israeli Palestinians.[4][5] According to a 2017 survey by University of Haifa professor Sammy Smooha, 16% of the Arab population prefers the term "Israeli Arab", while the largest and fastest growing proportion prefers "Palestinian in Israel", and 17% prefer "Palestinian Arab", rejecting entirely the identity of "Israeli".[6]

This is inaccurate, as it uses an old study as citation. The most recent study, linked below, shows the majority define themselves as Israeli-Arab, and a quarter Israeli, and only 17% Palestinian. This inaccuracy is important in that it portrays them as not affiliated with the state of Israel

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/only-7-percent-of-israeli-arabs-define-themselves-as-palestinian-625285 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:A1C0:6D40:9832:F281:2380:5F68 (talk) 22:24, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

This was a poll conducted on behalf of the Jewish People Policy Institute, a body established by the World Zionist Organization and whose mission is "to ensure the thriving of the Jewish People and the Jewish civilization by engaging in professional strategic thinking and planning on issues of primary concern to world Jewry". It can hardly be considered independent in this matter, and certainly should not be used to reject the findings of Sammy Smooha, one of the leading academic experts in this field. RolandR (talk) 14:06, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Wrong translation

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

the part that says: Arab citizens of Israel فلسطينيو 48 עֲרָבִים אֶזרָחֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל

the Arabic translation is absolutely wrong, it should be مواطني إسرائيل العرب. The translation in arabic was recently changed into a very wrong terminology, that is not even a translation to the English nor the Hebrew texts above and under. As a reader, i feel like this part "فلسطينيو 48" is a way to express a personal political view regarding terminologies, and not putting out accurate official and accredited information, used by governments. I highly request the change of this term "فلسطينيو 48" to "مواطني إسرائيل العرب" or "عرب إسرائيل" since they are the official terminology and the accurate translation of both the English and Hebrew texts, which in all three languages should be accurately similarly related to not create confusions for any reader of any language.

Courtney22777 (talk) 20:47, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't speak Arabic but the lead says "In Arabic various terms are used, but most importantly, 48-Palestinian or 48-Arab (Arabic: فلسطينيو 48، عرب 48‎)." and the article text says, with sources, "Terms preferred by most Arab citizens to identify themselves include Palestinians, Palestinians in Israel, Israeli Palestinians, the Palestinians of 1948, Palestinian Arabs, Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel." You are saying there is an "official" version, by which I assume you mean an Israeli version, it seems to me that is just as much a "political view regarding terminologies" as anything else? In any case, this seems more than just a change to the infobox title, it also has implications in the article lead and body. I think we need to hear the views of other editors before proceeding with any changes.Selfstudier (talk) 10:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 June 2021

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

64% of Arab Israeli identify themselves as Israelians and a part from state of Israel 22% of Arab Israeli identify themselves as Palestinian origins 14% of Arab Israel identify themselves as Canaanites and other's 9.3% of Arab Israeli are NON-RELIGIOUS and Atheism Capital2030 (talk) 19:18, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:47, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

fact checking to the "citizenship offering" for the Golan-heights Druze and East-Jerusalem Palestinians

Latest comment: 2 years ago8 comments6 people in discussion

The article states:

"The Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Druze in the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused"

Can someone give supporting evidence to this claim? I mean - I know there is a possible path for the EJ Pals to get citizenship - but back in 1967 those territories were in the same status as anywhere else in the west bank, and only in the 80's it was internally annexed thru declarative laws, so when was this offer given exactly?

Another thing is that today it is quite a burden to really get it (see for example here: [35]) - so it is interesting to understand what form did this "offer" take place - for example - did the Israeli gov't published it in local newspapers? How and when was it being communicated, if at all?

Thanks, 2600:1700:DAC0:16E0:3DBC:6A8F:9AD7:8081 (talk) 23:00, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

This is discussed on some other talk page with sources. Maybe you can find it. It is a myth that EJ Arabs were offered citizenship in 1967. It never happened, but unfortunately many journalists have fallen for the story. Later on, EJ Arabs were given the right to apply for citizenship and some have, but many who apply are rejected. The remaining Golan residents (a small number of Druze) were not offered citizenship in 1967 either, but when Israel annexed the Golan in 1981 there was an attempt to force citizenship on them. Most rejected it and remained non-citizens. Zerotalk 12:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
This AP article seems to confirm what you are saying there (in the middle, starts off "Israel’s 1967 annexation of east Jerusalem — opposed by most of the world — did not come with an offer of automatic citizenship for the tens of thousands of Palestinians living there.") Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
I would like to start an article on this topic. Any good sources would be appreciated. I have found these so far:
  • SEIDEMANN, D. (2016). East Jerusalem: The Myth of Benign Occupation Disintegrates. Journal of Palestine Studies, 45(2 (178)): "Whereas Israel had imposed citizenship on those Palestinians who remained within its borders following the 1948 war that saw the creation of the state, Israel did not make the 70,000 Palestinians residing in the newly designated East Jerusalem citizens. In essence, Israel annexed the territory, but not its residents—consistent with its goal of expanding its borders while maintaining a strong Jewish majority among its citizens. It is often argued that East Jerusalem’s Palestinians are entitled to Israeli citizenship, and some suggest that it is something most of them want. Both assertions are factually incorrect. Palestinians may apply for citizenship and 12,025 of them have done so since 1970 (an average of 267 applications per year), of whom 5,055 have been successful. This is the grand total among a population that has grown from 70,000 in 1967 to more than 307,000 today. Clearly, the Palestinians of East Jerusalem are not clamoring for Israeli citizenship, nor is Israel agitating to give it to them."
  • Kennedy, R. Scott. “The Druze of the Golan: A Case of Non-Violent Resistance.” Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 13, no. 2, 1984, pp. 48–64
  • Tayseer Mara'i, and Usama R. Halabi. “Life under Occupation in the Golan Heights.” Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 22, no. 1, 1992, pp. 78–93
Onceinawhile (talk) 17:18, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/08/08/israel-jerusalem-palestinians-stripped-status https://www.ir-amim.org.il/sites/default/files/permanent%20residency.pdf Selfstudier (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

How come you agree with me here but the false sentence remains in the article? I think it's clear it should be removed... 2600:1700:DAC0:16E0:FD2A:44EB:5692:5F22 (talk) 18:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Not sure I understand - the article contains a false statement, as agreed here in this discussion. I am unable to edit and correct it. Could someone help and correct the mistake - rephrase the sentence? 2600:1700:DAC0:16E0:E126:4C7B:45F:D074 (talk) 16:47, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
The incorrect sentence is gone, but it needs replacing. This all takes time. Zerotalk 04:38, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 June 2021

Latest comment: 2 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion

The article does not explain that the majority of Arabs in Israel cannot vote for National Elections. To not do so seems a bit misleading considering the long paragraphs on Arab Political Parties and Civil Rights. 2600:8801:1A84:3400:C01A:ED62:693F:E0F2 (talk) 15:46, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
Arabs in Israel have the right to vote in National Elections and do take place in the Knesset. See List of Arab members of the Knesset. Chxeese (talk) 01:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Minor edit request

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

On the last line of the first paragraph it reads:

After the Nakba, the Palestinians that remained within Israel's 1948 borders are colloquially known as "48 Arabs,".

There should be no comma after 48 Arabs.

WatABR (talk) 03:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Fixed. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
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