Talk:Antes people/Archive 1

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Limigantes = Antes?

Latest comment: 11 years ago7 comments4 people in discussion

Are Limigantes (redirects here) the same as Antes people? More specifically, are they really (or just only) Slavic-Iranian? The Free Dacians article says ... a serf-population called the Limigantes, who were probably an indigenous Dacian people (see the name of their ruler, Ziais, a Dacian name). This possibility should at least mentioned on the Antes page or the two should articles should be separated if the tribes are different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Codrinb (talk • contribs) 19:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Slavic-Iranian

Iranian? I believe allmost all europeans are ... but not necessary from ethnic point of view. Slavic? Depends on what slavic means on 325 :) Depends on how you define slavic now. From culture point of view, from ethnicity point of view, from genetical perspective, from political point of view, from language point of view, from archeological material culture point of view. Also they could be dacian but there are some primary sources, greek ones, who use daci as an substantive equivalent for slaves. It is very hard to define and find the truth only based on the few descripion from Ammianus. Stil there are many hypothesis regarding the limigantes.CristianChirita (talk) 11:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all the references and detail! Wow! I think the article should be expanded to mention these possibilities for the limig(antes). Right now it categorically says Slavic-Iranian which is incomplete, a bit wierd and out of sync with the Free Dacians article.--Codrinb (talk) 21:38, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

According to the ANTIQUE (NOT modern occult "Historical") sources: Antes WERE Slavs; one of their tribes; " Depends on how you define slavic now. " Bosniaks for example are Slavs because they speak Slavic language; originally always did; due to the fact they become muslims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.114.210 (talk) 11:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Zizais

Zizais is simillar to the costoboc name of a female Ziais marred with Pieporus, but is not identical.
Zizais is a scithyan name Nicolae Iorga: http://books.google.ro/books?id=qAgKAQAAIAAJ&q=Zizais+Rumo+Zinafer+Fragiledus&dq=Zizais+Rumo+Zinafer+Fragiledus&hl=ro&ei=M6cITa7qEszssgbcr6WUAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA

Antes

Contemporary sources mentioning Sclavenes and Antes, probably in an attempt to make sense of the process of group identification taking place north of the Danube limes, stressed the role of “kings” and chiefs, which may have played an important role in this process. -Florin Curta Making of Slavs
Jordanes had equated the Sclavenes and the Antes to the Venethi (or Venedi) also known from much earlier sources,such as Pliny the Elder, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. On the basis of this equivalence,Safárik claimed the Venedi for the Slavic history.-Florin Curta Making of Slavs
Procopius’ view of the Slavs is a function of his general concept of oikumene. An analysis of his diplomatic terminology reveals his idea of an empire surrounded by “allies” (¦nspondoi), such as the Saracens, the Lombards, the Gepids, the Goths, the Cutrigurs, and the Antes.-Florin Curta Making of Slavs
Procopius constantly referred to Sclavenes in relation to Antes and Huns or to other nomads..-Florin Curta Making of Slavs
Procopius classifies Sclavenes and Antes as nomads, Jordanes gives them swamps and forests for cities. Procopius locates the Sclavenes close

to the Danube frontier of the Empire, while Jordanes moves them northward as far as the Vistula river. Procopius maintains that the Sclavenes and the Antes “are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy”; Jordanes gives the Antes a king, Boz..-Florin Curta Making of Slavs

Procopius is the first author to speak of Slavic raiding across the Danube.According to his evidence, the first attack of the Antes, “who dwell close to the Sclaveni,” may be dated to 518.

References in literature about Limigantes

Primary sources

The limigantes are mentioned only in conjunction with the events from 332-334 and 357-359.^[1]

Ammianus Marcellinus, Rerum gestarum libri, XVII, 12, 15, 18
Anonimus Valesii, Excerpta Valesiana;
Eusebius from Caesarea, Vita Constantini, IV, 6;
Hieronimus

AFAIK, nowehere have I read that the Antes = Limigatnes. The Limigantes referes to the Sarmatians/ Iazyges who occupied the Alfold region of modern Hungary from 1st century AD till the Huns. The actual term Limigantes appears somewhat later, ie from 4th century, to differentiate them from the Agrigantes. This referred to a ruling class and slave clas of Sarmatians. I know that there are theories that these servant Sarmatians were actually native Dacians, or SLavs, but this is rather obscure, and in anyway, cannot be proven based on a few fragmentery references. Apart from the widely circulated theory that the Antes were Slavicized IRanians, there is no direct link between them and the Limigantes. (The ethnicity of the Antes is probably far more complictaed. In fact, many Antean chiefs have what appear to be Gothic names)Hxseek (talk) 00:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Good points and notes. I think a split would make sense and both articles need a lot of work. Volunteers? :-) --Codrin.B (talk) 22:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Slavs were antique Antes. Not Dacians, not Iranians and not Goths. Other claims are nationalistic occult bollocks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.114.210 (talk) 11:34, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Nationalism

Where is written that this Engraved Buckle represented the "germanic gold"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Germanic_gold_buckle_from_Keszthely,_Hungary.jpg

Slavs were also writing with similar letters; here is another example from the Russian city of Novgorod;

http://www.arild-hauge.com/arild-hauge/ru-rune-novgorod1-1.gif

It is written "Khniaztvo KNIAZTV(o)-G/Z/SH L R"; Kniaztvo is a "principality"; where "Kniaz" or Knez is a prince (ruler). Literally Principal city (of Novgorod).

If there is an inscription with the Antes name it does not mean it was Germanic but it could be written by anybody, including Slavs (Antes) themselves.

Etymology of Ant

"The word Antes is considered by some linguists to be an Iranian name"

Where is the source of this claim?

In old Slavic term Anta, Inda meant "ancient one"; In Prekmurian language (Prekmurian was originally spoken a s laguage before they renamed it into a "dialect" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prekmurje_Slovene) word "INDA"(like in the context; Inda Svejta; "once upon a time(in ancient time" - Svejt is Svet http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Slavic/sv%C4%99t%D1%8A).

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^ http://www.istoriatransilvaniei.ro/vol1/v1c3.pdf

[1] ttp://www.istoriatransilvaniei.ro/vol1/v1c3.pdf

[1]