Talk:Anorexia mirabilis

Wilgefortis

I've removed the following:

It has been suggested that the miraculous beard of Wilgefortis was in fact Lanugo, as result of starvation.

It implies that Wilgefortis was a real person, in contrast to the Wilgefortis article and its references. Also, the reference here is not reliable: Everything2 is just another user-submitted content work like Wikipedia, with the same (if not more) problems with reliability. -kotra (talk) 16:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I notice you moved a portion of my entry on Anorexia Mirabilis to the discussion page due to an unreliable/ possibly unreliable source, so I have a new, much better one, and am hoping you will find this acceptable and re-enter the passage and new reference (I'm not sure of wiki ettequite, is this the right thing to do?) Anyhow, here is the new reference link: http://www.philipresheph.com/a424/study/lacey.doc

Also, here's some alternate sources if that one's not all right:

http://eprints.utas.edu.au/287/15/Chapter_14__Eating_disorders2.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=eX3xL91hBPIC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=wilgefortis+lanugo&source=web&ots=Br7D4vHkkF&sig=hfEeUhtce5YA0q0PzJTUJOEDlAE&hl=en

http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/labs/keellab/Journal%20Articles%20(PDF)/Are%20Eaing%20Disorders%20Culture%20Bound%20Syndromes.pdf

http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521613125&ss=exc

THANKS!

Esmeralda.rupp (talk) 21:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

http://www.philipresheph.com/a424/study/lacey.doc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esmeralda.rupp (talk • contribs) 21:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up here. I've reviewed all these sources.

1. Concerning the first source you give (lacey.doc), I'm not sure if it actually makes a direct connection between lanugo and Wilgefortis. It does mention lanugo, but it doesn't explicitly claim that Wilgefortis (if there was an actual Wilgefortis, which it says may not be the case: "Our knowledge of the early life of Wilgefortis is sketchy. This would not be surprising if the legend becomes interwoven with clinical material from different cases and sources.") had it. The most it says about lanugo is just a cursory description of it:

The endocrine disorder is secondary to weight loss and manifest as amenorrhoea, but in some patients the hormonal imbalance is such that hair develops on the upper lip and chin. In addition, lanugo hair grows on the back, arms, legs, and side of the face. Individual variation is considerable, but the more emaciated the patient the more the hair grows. The downy hair is believed to help temperature regulation in the absence of adequate subcutaneous fat tissue. Head hair is apt to be thin and may sometimes fall out, tending, therefore, to further emphasise any other extraneous facial hair.

2. The second source (Download of Psychiatry by Saxby Pridmore) brings up a criticism of the lanugo argument. It says:

To avoid the marriage St Wilgefortis prayed to God to be made unattractive. She became ascetic and ate little. She developed body hair and grew a beard. The King of Sicily withdrew his suit. Her father was so outraged he had her crucified. Lanugo, (fine baby-like hair) is frequently observed on the face and limbs of patients with anorexia nervosa– but, not a beard.

3. The third source (Understanding Eating Disorders: Anorexia Nervosa, Bulimia Nervosa, and Obesity) is direct and asserts the lanugo-Wilgefortis connection, but has questionable validity. It says:

St. Wilgefortis was suspected to be anorexic. Her hirsuitism was likely the result of lanugo (long, fine, dark hair) found in chronic patients with anorexia nervosa.

However, this book doesn't seem to explore the lanugo-Wilgefortis connection more than just that one sentence. More worryingly, though, is its description of lanugo as "dark". Every description and photo of lanugo I've seen describes or shows it as "white". So it may be a book that would probably otherwise qualify as a reliable source, but I would really question its accuracy on the subject of lanugo.

4. The fourth source (Are Eating Disorders Culture-Bound Syndromes? by Keel & Klump) actually references the first source (lacey.doc):

Purported cases of AN [Anorexia Nervosa] prior to the twelfth century include St. Wilgefortis, who allegedly engaged in self-starvation resulting in emaciation and lanugo (fine, downy body hair usually restricted to the fetal stage of development) sometime between A.D. 700 to 1000 (Lacey, 1982).

...and then describes how that claim is controversial:

For example, Bynum (1987) characterized the description of St. Wilgefortis as having AN as a “bizarre communication to a British medical journal” (p. 194). Indeed, the story of St. Wilgefortis recounted by Lacey is open to numerous interpretations, among which AN is one possibility. Moreover, prior to the twelfth century, details become sparse, increasing the difficulty of interpreting these potential cases.

I thought that was interesting, but back on the topic of lanugo, it relies on the first source (lacey.pdf) for the connection between lanugo and Wilgefortis, but the first source doesn't explicitly make that claim anyway. Both sources seem more concerned with Anorexia Nervosa than lanugo, and barely mention lanugo in both cases.

5. The fifth source (Eating Disorders in Children and Adolescents) relies on the fourth source for its lanugo claim, which relies on the first source for its lanugo claim:

Saint Wilgefortis, thought to have lived between the eighth and twelfth centuries, reportedly engaged in self-starvation resulting in emaciation and (what has been speculated to be) lanugo – the fine downy hair that may result from anorexia and malnutrition (Keel & Klump, 2003)

So, taking these all together, I still don't think it should be added back in. To me, it seems like there is only one moderately credible source (lacey.doc) that may make a lanugo-Wilgefortis connection, and then two sources that dispute it, one non-credible source, and one source that simply reinterprets the original Lacey source. I might be stricter about sources than other editors, though. -kotra (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello again! Your statements are valid and thorough. I really appreciate your feedback- I debated whether to include the statement, as I do not have any other pertinent information on Wilgefortis, besides a reference from the book Holy Anorexia- in which the author makes a supposition that it COULD be the case, this is why I used the word "suggested" rather than a solid affirmative. Writing this Wiki article was sort of a... whim- I went looking for more information on anorexia mirabilis, and so I looked here and was SHOCKED to not find a wiki article. I just figured I found the gap, so I should fill it. I am not a scholar of any variety, and though I did my homework and research, I did not spend years studying the subject matter in school. I have had enormous fun with this project, and the feedback I have gotten from Wikipedia editors and laypeople has been helpful, exciting, and interesting. I believe you are correct in your decision to leave it out, and I again thank you for your time, effort, and conversation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esmeralda.rupp (talk • contribs) 01:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the slow response. Thank you very much for writing this article, it was certainly a good gap to fill! I'm glad you agree, and I hope you continue to help out on Wikipedia. Thanks again. -kotra (talk) 20:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking through those references, I support the possible identification of Wilgefortis's beard with lanugo. Pre-modern sources often make associations with things other than we'd think of today, especially (on the subject of 'beards') when written about by men. As for the colour of the hair — considering Wilgefortis's motivations and resourceful prayer, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd dyed it.

We have enough references to include it in the article. As you note, source 3 makes it explicit — it's probably one of the best-referenced statements in a minor article on Wikipedia at the moment. Njál (talk) 22:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

References

Everything2

Everything2 is not a reliable source. The Everything2 links need to be replaced with something better Nil Einne (talk) 14:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Disputed

It appears that most of the information in this article is apocryphal at best. Notably, none of the wiki pages for the saints mentioned make any mention of ritual starvation and self-mutilation described here. While it appears well sourced at a glance, around half the references are links to Everything2, which certainly doesn't meet WP:RS. Several of the claims are from term papers written by university students, which I don't think meet WP:RS either (although the references in those papers may be useful for improving this article). Furthermore, the external links section is a mess of links to Everything2, random blogs, and something called SQPN that appears to be some sort collaborative Catholic site.

On the whole, I would say the entire article needs a thorough fact checking and cleanup. Bungeh (talk) 14:28, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Article should be deleted or combined with Anorexia nervosa; violates NPOV

None of the information from medieval sources is reliable, as all of it comes from hagiographical accounts, that is, a genre of literature whose purpose is to celebrate saints and exhibit their behaviour as models of holiness. That being the case, it has the status, at best, of anecdote. By creating a topic called anorexia mirabilis, all you do is muddy the waters regarding the real condition, anorexia nervosa. The whole article is nothing but special pleading on the part of committed authors, and thus clearly violates the NPOV guidelines. I would suggest something like the following:

Some Catholic sources have urged the recognition of a special, medieaval form of anorexia nervosa, which they call "anorexia mirabilis." However, there are no reliable sources attesting to this as a separate but related condition, apart from medieval hagiographies, which themselves offer only anecdotal evidence for such a condition.

The content of this article could then be appended. It seems to me that the best evidence would support the notion that anorexia mirabilis is simply a different manifestation of the underlying condition, that is, that in different cultures it is differently accounted for, and thus makes its appearance in slightly different forms; but the underlying pathology is the same, thus, this article should be deleted and the contents shifted to Anorexia Nervosa.Theonemacduff (talk) 20:08, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Anorexia mirabilis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080320094220/http://www.domcentral.org:80/study/ashley/osanna.htm to http://www.domcentral.org/study/ashley/osanna.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090207032015/http://media.www.easterneronline.com:80/media/storage/paper916/news/2004/02/25/EagleLife/Speaking.About.Eating.Disorders-2367510.shtml to http://media.www.easterneronline.com/media/storage/paper916/news/2004/02/25/EagleLife/Speaking.About.Eating.Disorders-2367510.shtml

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 22:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Other notable figures

Cross over with fasting girl, there appears to be a number of women who claimed to go without food, many were devoutly religion but exposed as frauds. A list of these that I have managed to dig up so far: Jane Balon, Katerin Cooper, Mercy Short, Jane Stretton, Eve Fliegen, Elizabeth Squirrell, Martha Taylor.

Most of these are mentioned in Joan Jacobs Brumberg (Fasting Girls: The History of Anorexia Nervosa), Caroline Walker Bynum (Holy Feast and Holy Fast) etc. The article could be greatly expanded. I also managed to find two interesting papers. HealthyGirl (talk) 21:37, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Anorexia mirabilis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080513022649/http://tell.fll.purdue.edu/RLA-Archive/1998/italian-html/Morrison%2C%20Molly.htm to http://tell.fll.purdue.edu/RLA-Archive/1998/italian-html/Morrison,%20Molly.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:34, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Anorexia mirabilis. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Corrected formatting/usage for http://tell.fll.purdue.edu/RLA-Archive/1998/italian-html/Morrison%2C%20Molly.htm
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140421064816/http://saints.sqpn.com/saintm9r.htm to http://saints.sqpn.com/saintm9r.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Self harm

Obviously Anorexia mirabilis and nervosa are related phenomena. Both involve a distorted self image (though calling the holiness distorted may be just my POV as an agnostic); both fall within a broader category of self-harm (including flagellants and cutters). Cultural norms - the roles offered to an individual by his or her culture - will affect the self image, so it is equally obvious that they are different phenomena because norms have changed.

The article seems to me to miss what I here call obvious, but including it of course requires a valid source which I have not.--Nø (talk) 09:19, 18 May 2018 (UTC)