Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation/Archive 10

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Splitting proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I propose that section Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation#Russian takeover and parts of other sections be split into a separate page called 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea. They are related but different events. Compared to 2022, there is an article on the Russian invasion, but there is a separate article about the annexation. See also d:Q15833607. Privybst (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

• You mean a new article strictly on the military operation? Might be a good idea. I would prefer plain language to the euphemism: I can think of several variations, but the best is probably Russian invasion of Crimea. —Michael Z. 21:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  @Mzajac we still need to disambiguate it from the invasion of Crimea by the Russian Empire. I'm OK with 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea. Privybst (talk) 21:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don’t think we do need to disambiguate in the title, because there’s no conflicting article. A hat note on the new article would do as well as the hat note on the current one does now: “ For the 1783 event, see . . . ” But we could follow the current pattern and title it Invasion of Crimea by the Russian Federation, or Russian Federation invasion of Crimea. —Michael Z. 22:04, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

  The title question is now moot as the other has been renamed Annexation of the Crimean Khanate by the Russian Empire.  —Michael Z. 15:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• Well, technically Russia took over/occupied Crimea, not invaded it, because Russian army was already station there due to Russian naval base in Sebastopol. Wikisaurus (talk) 13:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

  No it wasn’t. Only the navy was stationed in bases. Over a dozen units of Russian Ground Forces and Russian Airborne Forces illegally invaded. Refer to the article. —Michael Z. 20:40, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose, the region was invaded then occupied, but is now annexed and it may need to be merged with Annexation of Southern and Eastern Ukraine or a year put in the title to be more WP:PRECISE. waddie96 ★ (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

  Which parts od SE Ukraine are annexed? The situation is dynamic. Xx236 (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think we should merge this article into the "Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts" (previously under that other name) because that event specifically refers to the 2022 Russian annexations of Ukrainian territory, whereas the Russian annexation of Crimea occurred in 2014. Historically, even though the two events are closely related, they are indeed separate, and it would not make sense to combine the two annexations from eight years apart into a single article. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 13:02, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support I think this makes sense from a reader's perspective as well as an encyclopedic perspective to differentiate the two and I completely agree with the reasoning from Privybst for symmetry with the recent annexation. It doesn't seem to be an issue of article size but rather scope if I'm understanding correctly; this new article would surely take information from this article and the timeline. I also would support the title 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea with '2014' included. Yeoutie (talk) 14:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support - It's a good idea to map out the military aspect in a separate article from the politics. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 12:07, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: Someone has very recently created an article titled "Russian occupation of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol". The article has contained a substantial level of information from the get-go, although I haven't personally assessed the reliability of the information. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 12:11, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose – Unnecessary and confusing. The political and military events in the case of Crimea were an integrated operation, not separate in any way. The result of such a split would be the creation of potential POV forks we don't need. RGloucester — ☎ 23:35, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
• Close as the creation of Russian occupation of Crimea has made this proposal moot, and the discussion seems to be petering out. User:Privybst, would you consider withdrawing the proposal? —Michael Z. 15:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

  I agree with you @Mzajac that the discussion has slowly petered out, although there are a few responses here and there. However, I don’t think we will be getting a response from @Privybst any time soon seeing as they have been indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. Fats40boy11 (talk) 07:07, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

• I personally would like to read about the invasion Patriciogetsongettingridofhiswiki (talk) 00:34, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
• I like the idea from Michael Z above but I think a better title would be Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea. IntrepidContributor (talk) 01:31, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
• Support Lucasmota0975 (talk) 01:22, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The creation of the Russian occupation of Crimea article means it wouldn’t make sense to have another similar article. That being said, I wouldn’t be against merging any relevant information to Russian Occupation of Crimea if it makes sense to do so. Fats40boy11 (talk) 14:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Agree with RGloucester, that would be just confusing to have 100 articles for one integrated series of events. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:05, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Unnecessary, all the relevant information can be included in the current article. Vic Park (talk) 01:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose As the current article seems sufficient to cover the military actions, in addition to the politics. Granular coverage of the nature of the Russian military involvement is also covered under Little green men (Russo-Ukrainian War). --Katangais (talk) 01:25, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
• Support annexation is just an event, suggesting "invasion of Crimea" is on Russian occupation of Crimea - Jjpachano (talk)
• Support I support the split! Naming the invasion “annexation” is like naming the 2022 invasion “Annexation of Eastern Ukraine”, which only happened in September 2022! — Preceding unsigned comment added by TankDude2000 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 1 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 09:44, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

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Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation → 2014 Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea – The article describes not only the annexation, but also the invasion. The political and military events in the case of Crimea were an integrated operation, not separate as in 2022 for which there are separate articles 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine and Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. I propose to include the year in the title in order not to confuse with the annexation of 1783, but maybe the hatnote is enough, I also agree with the title Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea. Onlk (talk) 22:24, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Ancheta Wis; Could you look at this unexpected request made by another new editor, who appears to have extensive knowledge of Wikipedia Request policies and Dab policies after making only two hundred edits for Wikipedia. The request was made the day after I did a close for very similar move request which was closed as having no clear consensus above. I was thinking that this request seems un-needed and not useful, possibly for quick deletion. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:49, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause I was inpires by your closing remarks in the split propoal (not a move request) above. Several editors have voiced the opinion that a possible name change to the article might be considered, possibly taking into account the more recent annexations taking place in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. These items could be considered separately. And yes, I edited enwiki before and read the internal discussion already many years. Onlk (talk) 18:23, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Support  The title should make it clear that this subject is not only a political declaration, but also a cross-border military operation. —Michael Z. 23:07, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

If Michael is supporting then it seems ok. Full 30-day discussion? ErnestKrause (talk) 00:47, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:RM says 7 days is full, and it’s routine for closers to extend if consensus is not clear. As this is a major article, I won’t object to additional extensions until consensus is in no doubt, but seems CRYSTAL to predict how long that will take.  —Michael Z. 02:15, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose   the title is not convenient and the article is also similar to Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China - Jjpachano (talk) 12:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Oppose As per Jjpachano. 2001:8003:913E:5D01:34A2:6620:A592:B4 (talk) 02:31, 7 February 2023 (UTC)— 2001:8003:913E:5D01:34A2:6620:A592:B4 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name of the Ukrainian Revolution of 2014 ('Revolution of Dignity' or '2014 Ukrainian Revolution'?)

I've attempted to edit one link to the revolution in Ukraine in 2014 and try and put a name that I view as non-partisan: '2014 Ukrainian Revolution'. The reason is that the name 'Revolution of Dignity' is a name for the revolution widely used in Ukraine, but not internationally. Besides, the name 'Revolution of Dignity' not only does not indicate when or where it took place (it's a vague name), it also sounds partisan (I swear I'm not trying to degrade the name because of pro-russian bias, I personally oppose Russia's invasion and War in Ukraine). Wikipedia's guidelines indicate that articles cannot take any stance in a conflict; I.e, to stay neutral. And even in a war where there's an obvious aggressor (in this case, Russia) and an obvious victim (the Ukrainian people), one can't get carried away with any biases, however small they may be.

As such, I propose that articles in English refer to the Ukrainian revolution as '2014 Ukrainian Revolution.' It's a clear, non-partisan name (in line with Wikipedia's guidelines) specifies when and where it took place, and even indirectly says that it was a popular uprising against their government (the government of Viktor Yanukovich at the time).

I'm open to questions and responses to my proposal. 80.42.174.53 (talk) 12:58, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I you truly think so, then try first to move Revolution of Dignity to Ukrainian Revolution of 2014 or so. Onlk (talk) 13:20, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The name is indeed used internationally. For example here is New York Times. Volunteer Marek 13:22, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

We generally use article titles. If there is a problem with the title, request a move of the article.

That article has had at least 9 move requests, and the current title is a result of consensus in November 2021.

One can infer that there was a consensus at the time that the title is sufficiently neutral. If you want argue it’s not, that is the place to start. —Michael Z. 22:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

And the article Revolution of Dignity falls under WP:GS/RUSUKR, so anonymous editors cannot propose moves or vote on them. I suggest you register as an editor and spend some time editing before leading efforts to reevaluate issues of neutrality in contentious topics.  —Michael Z. 22:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2023

The following sentence: "Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk called for a change in EU energy policy as Germany's dependence on Russian gas poses risks for Europe.[409]" should be removed from the article as it is not based on a source. The Guardian article linked does not mention Donald Tusk or any quotes by him. This sentence either should be supported by a legitimate source of should be removed. 37.30.44.187 (talk) 14:39, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done I replaced the source that failed verification. M.Bitton (talk) 01:23, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 April 2023

TankDude2000 (talk) 08:59, 12 April 2023 (UTC) I suggest that we should move some parts of this article to the page 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea, while we keep the current article. Obviously the situation wasn’t just an annexation, it was an invasion as well! This is the reason the following pages: Russian invasion of Ukraine and Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts are separate!

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 11:17, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Split article

I suggest that we should move some parts of this article to the page 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea, while we keep the current article. Obviously the situation wasn’t just an annexation, it was an invasion as well! This is the reason the following pages: Russian invasion of Ukraine and Russian annexation of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts are separate! TankDude2000 (talk) 07:39, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

There’s a broader article Russian occupation of Crimea. It is less mature and needs work, but the scope of its subject should be treated as a parent article to this one.  —Michael Z. 16:13, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I refer to an article reffering to the 2014 invasion of Crimea and another one for the annexation. TankDude2000 (talk) 18:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Well the other already is about the military invasion and occupation, including the political annexation. This one is about the annexation including military events of the invasion and occupation. The difference from what you’re proposing is not substantive, only one of emphasis. Please expand these articles to include what you think they deserve.  —Michael Z. 18:40, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2023

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There are still debates on whether the invasion of Crimea and the pro-Russian protests started on February 20 or 23, so I guess that we should replace February 20 with February 20/23. WikiManUser21 (talk) 17:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)strike sock -- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. — Czello ^(music) 17:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

You mean the “Date” field in the infobox? Not sure what protests have to do with it. The dates represent the likely dates of initial Russian invasion and the final ousting of Ukrainian forces.

Actually material should be moved to the newer article Russian occupation of Crimea. This article on the annexation should be slimmed down and the date should be the actual annexation, March 18.  —Michael Z. 20:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

 Note: Closing pending consensus.

I'm a big fan of explanatory footnotes, so I would suggest adding one to the lead to explain the lack of clarity. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 10 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: WP:DENY, sockpuppet of a well-known disruptive user in this topic area. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Czello ^(music) 07:26, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

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Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation → 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea – It clearly was an invasion, rather than only an annexation, with 3 deaths happening. Having the current title seems like it was only an exchange of territories, which obviously didn’t happen. Oh, and about the Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China, Tibet wasn’t a de jure independent republic, and China cannot invade itself, so we should not change that title. After we change this page’s title, we should make a page only about the annexation. WikiManUser21 (talk) 04:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment. Not sure this would be an improvement. The actual article about that subject already exists: Russian occupation of Crimea. These two articles need improvement more than renaming.  —Michael Z. 14:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

That article is about the military occupation, not the 2014 invasion. WikiManUser21 (talk) 17:25, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per above comment by User:Mzajac. 162 etc. (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

  The user didn’t support or oppose yet. WikiManUser21 (talk) 17:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

  I, however, do oppose. 162 etc. (talk) 20:13, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Note that the requested move was made by a  Confirmed sock.-- Ponyo^{bons mots} 22:18, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 July 2023 (2)

Add reference [6] ("Vladimir Putin describes secret meeting when Russia decided to seize Crimea". The Guardian. Agence France-Presse. 9 March 2015. Retrieved 14 April 2016.) to the quote "we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia". Spingleton (talk) 12:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

 Already done it's already sourced in the article's body. M.Bitton (talk) 12:48, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 July 2023

Remove broken Yahoo reference [4]. The adjacent refs [5] and [6] cover the same story. Spingleton (talk) 12:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Xan747 (talk) 16:09, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 4 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 18:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

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Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation → 2014 Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea – It was mostly an invasion, which killed about 6 people, the annexation took place on one day, while the invasion took place 1 month. Sure, you’ll say that this title is similar to Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China, but it would violate WP:OTHERSTUFF. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 15:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

This user was blocked as a sockpuppet. S.L. 17:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - I can't think of any sources, reasons or policies provided to support the move. I must oppose a move per WP:CONSISTENT; and it does not violate OTHERSTUFF to say that this is similar to Annexation of Tibet by the People's Republic of China because CONSISTENT takes precedence over OTHERSTUFF. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:22, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Support. Maybe it’s not ideal, but it is an improvement in terms of the title identifying the subject, improving its fulfilment of the WP:CRITERIA. BTW, there is also Russian occupation of Crimea, about the nine-year occupation that started with the 2014 invasion.  —Michael Z. 16:41, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment. Nominator is not extended-confirmed as required by WP:GS/RUSUKR and the rationale sounds awfully familiar to the last RM by a sock. Mellk (talk) 17:10, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, having socks is not allowed, but some may have a point on some discussions, but by WP:GS/RUSUKR, I will withdraw my RM. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 17:39, 4 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, having socks is not allowed :)) Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 11:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. per @Estar8806: - Jjpachano (talk) 21:22, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2023

Fix the broken link in the international response section on sanctions: "They were the most wide-ranging applied to Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union<refname="Katakey"> Rakteem Katakey"

Change the statement "Russian companies started pulling billions of dollars out of Western banks to avoid hahingtjrie asset freeze," in the sanctions section of international response to "Russian companies started pulling billions of dollars out of Western banks to avoid having their assets frozen." TheSwolOne (talk) 22:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done. gobonobo ^{+ c} 08:38, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 December 2023

• What I think should be changed: Change the date of the beginning of the invasion to 22 February 2014.
• Why it should be changed: To make this article as unbiased as possible, it would make sense to change the date to the time the invasion is stated to have begun reliably. This will also help reduce confusion about the reasons and events of the ousting of Viktor Yanukovych.
• References supporting the possible change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#cite_note-7

Antny08 (talk) 14:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The note text should be re-verified and fixed first. For example, now it directly quotes the phrase "some contradictions and inherent problems" which is not found in the referenced source McDermott, Roger N. (2016). "Brothers Disunited: Russia's use of military power in Ukraine". Kammerer55 (talk) 15:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 15:15, 19 December 2023 (UTC)