Talk:Anne Sinclair

American-born

The intro paragraph reads "Anne Sinclair (born Anne-Élise Schwartz; July 15, 1948) is an American-born French television and radio interviewer".
She was born in NYC, so she was born in America. In many cases babies born in America are also American. But there is not evidence of this in her case. In addition, the wording can be read as: "she was first American and later acquired the French citizenship". In fact she most likely had the French citizenship at birth from her parents.
So, essentially she is French, and this is what the sources say. The American part will have to be sourced to remain in the article. This person has been vocal in the last years about the difficulty that one could experience for a while in France to prove one's French citizenship when one was born abroad. So the subject of her citizenship(s) is not to be taken lightly.
I have added a reference request for this on May 16, 2011. It was removed the same day by User:Henry Flower with the comment "cite in body of article". But the fact is that there is no such citation in the body of the article.
Thank you. olivier (talk) 08:27, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The cited Reuters article by Brian Love states explicitly, "Sinclair [...] was born in New York". — O'Dea (talk) 10:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

You did not read what I wrote above. My point is not "where was she born?", but "was she born with the US citizenship?".

"American-born" is not equal to "born in America", but most commonly means "born with American citizenship", which is not sourced. olivier (talk) 11:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I changed the statement into "New York City-born", which is both more accurate and less confusing. olivier (talk) 11:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

One born in the United States has American citizenship. She is a dual citizen. — O'Dea (talk) 11:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The statement "American-born" with a reference mentioning that she was born in NYC was using the shortcut that you just highlighted without explanation. Besides, it did not state if she was also French born. The accurate statement would then have been "American and French born". Given this and the reference used, I believe that "New York City-born" is more appropriate. Thank you. olivier (talk) 11:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

To be born in New York city is to be born in the United States, and therefore American born and a citizen of the United States. — O'Dea (talk) 11:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

So why not mention that she was French born? olivier (talk) 11:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Because she was not born in France. — O'Dea (talk) 11:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

French (in this case) = "French citizen", not "born in France". At the same time, many people born in France are not French. There are 2 definitions of citizenship and place of birth put together here, which generates confusion. I am not trying to make a point, just avoid confusion for a reader.olivier (talk) 11:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I have posted a request for input at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. olivier (talk) 11:50, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

See does seem to be a dual national with very strong french ties. Perhaps go like Roman Polanski - is a Polish-French film director....Born in Paris to Polish parents, he moved with his family back to Poland in 1937.....Anne Sinclair is a French-American ....Born in New York to French parents, she .... She seems very notable for her Frenchness - note - I am simply commenting from reading the article and on the discussion I have not accessed any externals. Off2riorob (talk) 12:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I find you puzzling, olivier. I do not understand what point you are trying to make. By all means, bring it to the attention of third parties. My understanding is that Sinclair was born in New York City, therefore born in the United States, not in France, and therefore she has American citizenship. She moved to France, and acquired French citizenship there, so she has dual American-French citizenship. This is not a complicated narrative, so I do not know what the problem is. — O'Dea (talk) 12:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

olivier, you said in my talk page and again on this page, at 11:35, 17 May 2011, that she was French born. She was born in New York, so she is American born. She cannot be French born because she was not born in France. She does have French citizenship, but that was acquired later. — O'Dea (talk) 12:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Not quite, if her parents were French then she would have automatically been French regardless of where she was actually born. There are two criteria that nations use to determine Citizenship "Blood and Soil" some times they combine both. My colleagues two children were born in the UK both parents are French, the children are French, they do not have British citizenship. John lilburne (talk) 13:02, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

John lilburne, can you point me to a reference that says a person born in the UK can not have British citizenship? I understand that anyone born there is British, but may also have other citizenships in certain circumstance. I am finding it hard to believe, frankly, that your colleague's children "do not have British citizenship". — O'Dea (talk) 14:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

They can have British citizenship but it is not automatic, they have to apply and there was until recently a charge of £540. The rules are pretty complex and change from year to year. Parents must either be British Citizens or settled here. EU nationals were not generally considered 'settled' here unless they registered. Rules changed after 2006 but aren;t retrospective etc. Many just can't be bothered with all the hassle. John lilburne (talk) 15:18, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I am quite surprised myself that things seem to be complicated: a baby born in NYC to French parents will be American AND French national at birth. The baby does not need to go back to France and become French. For instance, the French consulate in NYC has authority to register the birth of the baby as a French national just after the birth. That's basically the point that I am trying to make since the beginning. Basically, I disagree with the inclusion of a statement or allusion to the fact that she was not born a French citizen unless we have a reference to the contrary. olivier (talk) 15:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:OPENPARAGRAPH -(location, nationality) In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national (according to each nationality law of the countries), or was a citizen when the person became notable. - previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. - As I said, I think she has notability in both sections of her national status as an American and as a French person. If the baby had been born to french parents and had no French associations in their life then its usual to just state American and any French genetic history worthy of note can then be added in the personal life section but in the lede in such a case the subject would only be American. Off2riorob (talk) 15:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

It is reasonable straight forward here if the parents are married and one is British, or either have registered as 'settled'. My wife's children have duel nationality as the father was British and she registered them with the French Embassy. However, it would be entirely misleading to describe them as French. One might be so described based on him having done his French Military Service, but other than that 9 months he has spent all his life in the UK. Of the other two they have very little to do with France, except from visiting relations there once every 5 years or so. John lilburne (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

To give some context: I have mentioned this at the very beginning, but maybe I should make it clearer. The citizenship of Anne Sinclair, and when it was acquired, happens to be serious matter. In 2009/2010, new regulations regarding the renewal of the French ID card made it more complicated, and required to prove one's citizenship to have the ID renewed. Several high profile individuals, born French of French parents but abroad encountered difficulties with the administration. That was the case of Anne Sinclair, as reported here [1] (in French). These high profile cases have contributed to the administration becoming apparently less rigid on this matter. So, saying here that she was born American and later acquired the French citizenship is actually making a statement that is not neutral. olivier (talk) 16:03, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Did she get her ID card in the end - there were saying in 2008/9 the conditions became more restrictive and Sinclair had some trouble getting hers. They began asking for three generations of French ancestry not just parents. - it seems she wasn't born a French citizen at all, she was born two two French citizens in American and could apply and did and had trouble renewing in 2008/9 some people lost french citizen status through the changes. It al pretty irrelevant here anyways. Off2riorob (talk) 16:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If she was not born a French citizen, which is not clear here, then of course it is OK to mention it. But if it's not sure, it would be more appropriate not to say or let readers think that she was not. olivier (talk) 16:36, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Okay, this appears to be an overly long discussion about something relatively trivial.

• She was born in NYC to French parents
• Her nationality is French
• I live in France (19 years) and would like to point out that there is nothing notable about her Americanism, this is the first I've heard of it, she did not start a career in the States or do anything notable there (up until very, very recently)
• The French article simply says in its lead "Born in NYC, AS is a French journalist", then again different wiki, different rules
• What Off2riorob pointed to above, WP:OPENPARAGRAPH, seems to be pretty clear to me: "previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."
• And I have just checked the source used to ref this lede and all it says is that AS was born in NYC. This is not contested but is it relevant in the lede? And also, there is no mention anywhere that I've seen so far that says she has dual-nationality.
• So, after careful consideration, I believe that it should be struck from the lede (US-born) as it is not relevant to the person's notability, and is mentioned three lines later in #Early life and education

I guess that was about 15¢ worth. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 23:49, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with CaptainScreebo ^Parley!. Also, according to WP:MOSBIO, the lede should just have:

1. Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility));
2. Dates of birth and death, if known (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death);
3. Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);
   1. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.
   2. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. --Garik 11 (talk) 07:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

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